wwyd dilemma

OP did not even mention PTS but immediately got a call to PTS followed by lots of people agreeing. This went on for several pages with only a couple of people saying not to do it (and one making a stupid suggestion that she'd turn her horse loose on the moor, but I think we all agree that that is wrong). Only later did some more people say that actually they wouldn't PTS and then the debate started.
 
3 years ago today i made the call to PTS my youngster .... he had been poorly, and his quality of life was compromised .. He had nose dived again, and my vet gently told me enough was enough .... yet i was vilified for that decision as i made the mistake of sharing it online .... thank fully i had a lot of support, and though i miss him dearly it was the right thing to do FOR HIM.

OP ... that is what it comes down to, what is best for your mare, and only you know her enough to make that call x
 
marmalade76 said:
If an owner chooses to PTS it's nobodies' business but their's and they shouldn't have to justify themselves to anyone.
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But I don't think the OP has even once said she wants to put the horse to sleep. This was suggested by other HHO members. I agree that PTS is the business of the owner, though of course, once it is posted about on an open forum you can hardly complain if others discuss it.
 
People will do whatever they decide to do in the end. The OP asked for opinions and everyone gave theirs. The vast majority said they would PTS their horse in that situation. Only a small handful said they wouldn't have their horses PTS. OP will do what she wants in the end.

I have a problem with those suggesting that anyone who does not have the same opinion as them should be branded with some derogatory term. There is nothing 'holier than thou' in not killing a horse who is still ticking along quite happily, it's simply a choice that some of us would not consider doing. I value life I'm afraid. Greatly. Including the lives of my old horses. I won't see any of my animals suffer, however I also have no intention of killing them before they are ready to go. I also have a problem with some members on this forum making horses conditions sound FAR worse than the OP says. In this particular scenario the OP has stated the horse has arthritis, obviously mild as the horse is on no medication. Arthritis is a manageable condition, as is sweet itch. The way some posters have described the horse you'd think it was crippled and on deaths door.

OP do what you want with the horse. No one can tell you what to do. Make your own mind up about what's best, just like we all would were it one of our horses.
 
marmalade76 said:
If an owner chooses to PTS it's nobodies' business but their's and they shouldn't have to justify themselves to anyone.
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In that case, why are there so many threads about it on here?

If people must put their horses to sleep and tell themselves what a good job they are doing, do other people really have to hear about it and the constant discussion of the relative merits of various ways of doing so?

There is a search function after all.

I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.
 
Spring Feather said:
People will do whatever they decide to do in the end. The OP asked for opinions and everyone gave theirs. The vast majority said they would PTS their horse in that situation. Only a small handful said they wouldn't have their horses PTS. OP will do what she wants in the end.

I have a problem with those suggesting that anyone who does not have the same opinion as them should be branded with some derogatory term. There is nothing 'holier than thou' in not killing a horse who is still ticking along quite happily, it's simply a choice that some of us would not consider doing. I value life I'm afraid. Greatly. Including the lives of my old horses. I won't see any of my animals suffer, however I also have no intention of killing them before they are ready to go. I also have a problem with some members on this forum making horses conditions sound FAR worse than the OP says. In this particular scenario the OP has stated the horse has arthritis, obviously mild as the horse is on no medication. Arthritis is a manageable condition, as is sweet itch. The way some posters have described the horse you'd think it was crippled and on deaths door.

OP do what you want with the horse. No one can tell you what to do. Make your own mind up about what's best, just like we all would were it one of our horses.
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I totally agree with this. If you ask you might not get the answer you like. Everyone has their own conscience to deal with, what might be right for some might not be right for others but ultimately the decision and consequences lie with you alone.
 
Like the one whose horse went lame on Christmas eve, never even saw a vet and was dead by NYE with a tribute thread complete with photographs. But was well enough to have a hooly in the field.
 
Mithras said:
In that case, why are there so many threads about it on here?

If people must put their horses to sleep and tell themselves what a good job they are doing, do other people really have to hear about it and the constant discussion of the relative merits of various ways of doing so?

There is a search function after all.

I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.
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Well I would never feel the need a WWYD on this subject because I am very clear about the steps I take when I make this desision .
I did however post after I PTS CF after his last outburst but that was more I was alone and a bit shell shocked by the whole affair .
But to some people I can understand why a process like one of these threads might you find your way forward ,a search of the subject is perhaps not the same as typing down where you are at.
 
Wagtail said:
Like the one whose horse went lame on Christmas eve, never even saw a vet and was dead by NYE with a tribute thread complete with photographs. But was well enough to have a hooly in the field.
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Tbh Wagtail we PTS one and did not need the vet to tell us we where stuffed .
We did get the vet who confirmed it was a catastrophic injury with very little chance of recovery and no chance of soundness ,I did not need the vet to tell me that and knew that the year in stable it would have taken would have been no option for a twenty yo with bone spavin.
 
Mithras said:
In that case, why are there so many threads about it on here?

If people must put their horses to sleep and tell themselves what a good job they are doing, do other people really have to hear about it and the constant discussion of the relative merits of various ways of doing so?

There is a search function after all.

I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.
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This makes me very sad. I am all up for discussion, and I can at least see things from your point of view - but accusing all of us who PTS horses instead of giving them a long retirement of being mentally ill is a bit ridiculous.

I do the best I can for my horses - to a point. I have never actually HAD to follow through on my knowledge and decision to PTS an unrideable horse - I've always bought youngish horses, and either sold on, or I've PTS'd on welfare grounds (as in, colic, broken leg, still obviously lame in the field after six months type welfare grounds). I've only had one horse go unrideably lame, and thankfully I was in the situation that his previous owner (who I kept in touch with), who loved him like a pet but was scared to ride him, immediately said she'd have him as a companion/field ornament as the pressure was off to ride him, and she could just enjoy him. HOWEVER I'm being honest in that, if left with no reasonable options for recovery (even enough to do a different job for someone else), I would PTS an unrideable horse.

This doesn't mean I go around inventing reasons to put my animals down, or don't try my best to aid recovery (with long term rest if need be). But in my situation, an unrideable horse precludes me enjoying a hobby that I spend thousands and thousands of pounds a year to enjoy.
 
Goldenstar said:
Tbh Wagtail we PTS one and did not need the vet to tell us we where stuffed .
We did get the vet who confirmed it was a catastrophic injury with very little chance of recovery and no chance of soundness ,I did not need the vet to tell me that and knew that the year in stable it would have taken would have been no option for a twenty yo with bone spavin.
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But you are very experienced and knowledgeable.
 
This topic comes up a lot on here- it always provokes the same response- those that say they would rather pts then pass an old horse on, and those who seem horrified by this idea. Again and again it comes up, and again and again it ends up in argument and name calling.

I think a few things are clear:

It is up to the OP and the OP alone what happens to this horse.

Horses are an expensive hobby and in todays economic climate it may not always be suitable to keep them, even when they are old.

Some people who take on elderly horses as happy hackers/companions are genuine, and unfortunately as demonstrated by Buddysmum- others are not.

At the end of the day- as long as no harm/abuse comes to the horse and it does not suffer then does it matter? Surely we all agree on that?

For what its worth- I have always been a realist on these matters- It would break my heart more to know that Id passed my horse onto someone who caused them suffering, rather then Id put them down a few years early. But hey- feel free to call me a callous cow!
 
Dusty85 said:
This topic comes up a lot on here- it always provokes the same response- those that say they would rather pts then pass an old horse on, and those who seem horrified by this idea. Again and again it comes up, and again and again it ends up in argument and name calling.

I think a few things are clear:

It is up to the OP and the OP alone what happens to this horse.

Horses are an expensive hobby and in todays economic climate it may not always be suitable to keep them, even when they are old.

Some people who take on elderly horses as happy hackers/companions are genuine, and unfortunately as demonstrated by Buddysmum- others are not.

At the end of the day- as long as no harm/abuse comes to the horse and it does not suffer then does it matter? Surely we all agree on that?

For what its worth- I have always been a realist on these matters- It would break my heart more to know that Id passed my horse onto someone who caused them suffering, rather then Id put them down a few years early. But hey- feel free to call me a callous cow!
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Very well put and true
 
Mithras said:
I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.
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My vet said exactly that just the other day. He smiled wryly and said rather than calling a vet every 5 minutes for an imagined illness, they should ride the bloody things.

Having caught up again with this thread, thank goodness for the sensible posts from Spring Feather, Tarr Steps and others.
 
dogatemysalad said:
My vet said exactly that just the other day. He smiled wryly and said rather than calling a vet every 5 minutes for an imagined illness, they should ride the bloody things.

Having caught up again with this thread, thank goodness for the sensible posts from Spring Feather, Tarr Steps and others.
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So you would rather an inexperienced owner just cracked on with a horse they thought was not right rather than seek advice .
Do you think that would be better than a few unneeded call outs .
 
Dusty85 said:
At the end of the day- as long as no harm/abuse comes to the horse and it does not suffer then does it matter? Surely we all agree on that?
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Well we don't agree because to some people death to a horse is great harm, to others it isn't harm at all and to others it is harm, but its less harm than declining welfare.

It matters because every time there's a thread like this judging people wanting to put down horses it must influence weak minded people to be all the more likely of bottling out of doing the decent thing by their horses which often is pts. It has to be OK. No "ifs" or "buts "or "how could you's?" making people feel guilty for not maintaining field ornaments, because for every person that bottles pts and finds a way to maintain their field ornament, there'll be another who cracks at some point during the years and expense and finds any old way to pass it on.

Its lovely when people want to keep their field ornaments, lucky old horses to have all those years safe and happy and comfortable and not having to work for it. Fantastic. But pressing for this to be generally accepted practice by making one horse owners feel guilty just seems short sighted, idealistic and irresponsible to me, not to mention a bit mean.
 
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Goldenstar said:
So you would rather an inexperienced owner just cracked on with a horse they thought was not right rather than seek advice .
Do you think that would be better than a few unneeded call outs .
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I have to say, my vets have all said the same thing. MBP seems to be on the up in the horseworld. I personally think people who don't have enough knowledge or experience to own a horse shouldn't have one unless they are intelligent enough to keep a close knowledgeable network of people around them.
 
Goldenstar said:
So you would rather an inexperienced owner just cracked on with a horse they thought was not right rather than seek advice .
Do you think that would be better than a few unneeded call outs .
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He's an amazing vet with plenty of time for everyone. I don't think he was referring to inexperienced owners, do you ?
 
Dusty85 said:
For what its worth- I have always been a realist on these matters- It would break my heart more to know that Id passed my horse onto someone who caused them suffering, rather then Id put them down a few years early. But hey- feel free to call me a callous cow!
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I think many of us are also realists we just see individual situations differently perhaps? I have some younger horses but dread the thought of passing any of them on! Not because I am great owner or better than anyone else, just fear of where they might end up. The thought of pts my happy, healthy horses I've had for years and know well, is perhaps worse/harder for me? I wont know until or if the situation arises.
 
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Dusty85 said:
This topic comes up a lot on here- it always provokes the same response- those that say they would rather pts then pass an old horse on, and those who seem horrified by this idea. Again and again it comes up, and again and again it ends up in argument and name calling.
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Yes and there's just no need for those who are for PTS readily name calling those who don't agree. Just because almost every PTS thread has 100 times the amount of people telling the OP to PTS, doesn't mean that the 4 or 5 people who don't believe PTS is always the right answer, doesn't make their opinions any more valid, they're just louder and greater in number. It's always the PTS crowd who shout down anyone else who may not agree with them, not the other way around.


For what its worth- I have always been a realist on these matters- It would break my heart more to know that Id passed my horse onto someone who caused them suffering, rather then Id put them down a few years early. But hey- feel free to call me a callous cow!
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How many have you put down a few years early?
 
Flame_ said:
Well we don't agree because to some people death to a horse is great harm, to others it isn't harm at all and to others it is harm, but its less harm than declining welfare.

It matters because every time there's a thread like this judging people wanting to put down horses it must influence weak minded people to be all the more likely of bottling out of doing the decent thing by their horses which often is pts. It has to be OK. No "ifs" or "buts "or "how could you's?" making people feel guilty for not maintaining field ornaments, because for every person that bottles pts and finds a way to maintain their field ornament, there'll be another who cracks at some point during the years and expense and finds any old way to pass it on.

Its lovely when people want to keep their field ornaments, lucky old horses to have all those years safe and happy and comfortable and not having to work for it. Fantastic. But pressing for this to be generally accepted practice by making one horse owners feel guilty just seems short sighted, idealistic and irresponsible to me, not to mention a bit mean.
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Just to be clear, what does the term 'field ornament' mean to you?
 
Spring Feather said:
I have to say, my vets have all said the same thing. MBP seems to be on the up in the horseworld. I personally think people who don't have enough knowledge or experience to own a horse shouldn't have one unless they are intelligent enough to keep a close knowledgeable network of people around them.
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But they have got them, and while I would not disagree with you it would be better if they did not have horses they have them .
And let's not demean people with mental illness who suffer a condition so serious that it causes them to harm people often family member and even to kill them for the rush and attention and I also really don't think owners are harming their horses so they can call the vet .( ok I admit it's possible but not surely in large numbers )

For ever over protective novice owner there's an owner blind to the horses issues I see both types all the time .
Perhaps better the overprotective than the other sort.
 
Goldenstar said:
But they have got them, and while I would not disagree with you it would be better if they did not have horses they have them .
And let's not demean people with mental illness who suffer a condition so serious that it causes them to harm people often family member and even to kill them for the rush and attention and I also really don't think owners are harming their horses so they can call the vet .( ok I admit it's possible but not surely in large numbers )

For ever over protective novice owner there's an owner blind to the horses issues I see both types all the time .
Perhaps better the overprotective than the other sort.
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I agree with this mbp is not simply over anxious people but people who actively set out to harm the animal/child relative to class horse owners as such is mildly ridiculous as the vast majority do anything they can to protect their animals and panic because they want to do the best they can. They are largely speaking scammed into paying for a variety of so called professionals (not vets) in the name of horse care ok if you want to waste money on them and you have it to waste but to be honest most novices and their horses would benefit more by some good old fashioned horseman classes than the variety of alternative treatments advocated on sites like this Not saying some dont work but a lot are totally bogus
 
dogatemysalad said:
He's an amazing vet with plenty of time for everyone. I don't think he was referring to inexperienced owners, do you ?
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I have no idea who he felt it was apporiate to disscuss with another cilent .
I made no comment on him personally i don't know him.
Surely better the unneeded call out inexperianced or other wise than the other side of the coin.
I will admit I have seen overhorsed riders looking for medical reasons the horse won't go for them but hey no ones perfect some people are not blessed with self awareness .
But I also know a rider desperately seeking reason from her increasing unpredictable horse who was told to get on and ride the thing she did it hurled itself over a enormous bank side ways and died of a brain tumor she was luckily to escape badly battered .
I wonder how the vet who told her just to get on with it felt about that at the pm her husband demanded .
 
Spring Feather said:
How many have you put down a few years early?
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Thankfully, none. I haven't had any of the horses I've owned for long enough to be faced with this decision

I'm not saying the decision is an easy one, I'm also not saying that I believe my opinion is the right one.

But, when thinking about what I would do if I put myself into OPs shoes, then I would PTS. That is all I was referring to.
 
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Goldenstar said:
And let's not demean people with mental illness who suffer a condition so serious that it causes them to harm people often family member and even to kill them for the rush and attention and I also really don't think owners are harming their horses so they can call the vet .( ok I admit it's possible but not surely in large numbers )
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I think you miss the point. It's a valid observation about a trait that may not necessarily be severe enough to impede the person's ability to function with daily living.
Not everyone with MBP will kill a family member. Those are extreme cases. Depression is similar in that it can range from a simple case of the blues to a psychotic episode.
The remarks by vets are based on their experience, I don't think it demeans anyone. It's part of being a vet (or doctor).
 
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