wwyd dilemma

[khalswitz]

Well, I'm confused.

Me too.

I also never said it was purely medical, just that it usually is, or that a horse may NOT be a proxy - but you yourself said a high incidence in horse owners, and went on to compare to posting lots of threads about PTS. I think that this whole comparison of MBP to owners wanting to PTS horses/worrying over horses medical status is ridiculous. I think it downplays the seriousness of the medical disorder.

 

[Mithras]

Me too.

I also never said it was purely medical, just that it usually is, or that a horse may NOT be a proxy - but you yourself said a high incidence in horse owners, and went on to compare to posting lots of threads about PTS. I think that this whole comparison of MBP to owners wanting to PTS horses/worrying over horses medical status is ridiculous. I think it downplays the seriousness of the medical disorder.

I suspect theres a fine line between making yourself feel better about something uncomfortable, trying to control other people's views by imposing them on others and using websites to try and claim that they are mainstream, and certain disorders of the mind.

I'm not sure why denying the existence of Munchausens by Proxy should be such a big issue at all, since most of the professionals who are targeted seem to be aware that it is a known problem - we were certainly made aware of it in law school and it cropped up in our traineeship, and lawyers aren't targeted nearly as much as doctors.

 

[Blurr]

I'm not so sure about MBP in the horse world. But there're certainly a lot of people seeking validation for their actions/proposed course of action on HHO when it comes to putting to sleep an older but healthy horse because it no longer suits to keep it. How many people do you need to say 'pts' to assuage the guilt of a selfish decision? That's not to say one shouldn't pts in that situation, I'm well aware of the 'there're far worse things' argument and fully endorse it. I just think some owners need to grow a pair and take responsibility for their actions without whining about it to all and sundry, garnering sympathy for themselves instead of the poor old ned they're about to have shot.

 

[khalswitz]

I suspect theres a fine line between making yourself feel better about something uncomfortable, trying to control other people's views by imposing them on others and using websites to try and claim that they are mainstream, and certain disorders of the mind.

I'm not sure why denying the existence of Munchausens by Proxy should be such a big issue at all, since most of the professionals who are targeted seem to be aware that it is a known problem - we were certainly made aware of it in law school and it cropped up in our traineeship, and lawyers aren't targeted nearly as much as doctors.

I'm obviously not getting my point across very well - I'm not denying the existence of it, not by a long shot, but to what I read, you had implied that you had inferred a high rate of MBP due to the high number of queries regrading pts, and discussion around pts, and had therefore implied that horse owners coming on here looking for validation in their decisions are actually mentally ill.

This is probably not how you intended it to be read, but this is what I have been trying to argue against - I think comparing owners who do not want to keep a horse on in retirement for whatever reason, so someone who is mentally ill, is ridiculous.

 

[TarrSteps]

But forums pretty much exist as sounding boards, don't they? Users seek like minded individuals who will provide the information they want and validate their choices.

After all, everyone on hho is here because they have horses in common. That doesn't mean they will agree on everything but it does mean people assume a commonality of experience and a likelihood of informed opinions. They discuss the sort of things horsey people are interested in, including what to do with a big, expensive animal when you can't/don't want to care for it. This is probably more pressing for more people right now - if not, why are rescues full to overflowing?

Re the change in subject, that's what I like about forums, they are discussions. OPs don't own a thread any more than anyone who starts a conversation gets to control what everyone else says. Re MBP, I think there is a world of difference between people thinking their horse has the Disease Of The Week and actually HURTING it on purpose. In some ways, you could argue, that is at least an illness. Pretending your horse has a bizarre malady in order to avoid dealing with a more benign issue, or ignoring an obvious problem because it doesn't suit you seems more morally suspect. At least the OP (see, I got there ) didn't just shut up and pass the horse on to someone else.

 

[ester]

I'm obviously not getting my point across very well - I'm not denying the existence of it, not by a long shot, but to what I read, you had implied that you had inferred a high rate of MBP due to the high number of queries regrading pts, and discussion around pts, and had therefore implied that horse owners coming on here looking for validation in their decisions are actually mentally ill.

This is probably not how you intended it to be read, but this is what I have been trying to argue against - I think comparing owners who do not want to keep a horse on in retirement for whatever reason, so someone who is mentally ill, is ridiculous.

That is how I read it too, and yes it is ridiculous!

 

[LaMooch]

What so palming her off on someone else is the responsible option?!?!? Putting her at risk of an uncertain future?

Horses don't know that they're being put down, their brains don't work that way. Far better a peaceful end than many of the (likely) possibilities.

I agree this mare shouldn't be passed on and orginal poster doesn't want this either so PTS is the best idea in my honest opinion to prevent that.

 

[Fellewell]

When half-starved youngsters are being dumped what hope is there for the older horse?
Families with 'old retainers' have the respect and affection for a horse who very likely owes them nothing. You have cared for this mare, even though she has arthritis and sweet itch you have managed without meds.It's quite possible a new owner will want to see what she is still capable of and then she will need meds. They won't have the investment of your history with her.

I don't know if horses can sense abandonment. It's always sad to see an older horse at the sales who was once someones pride and joy.
A quote from an old PC manual; a horse or pony knows the voice of the one who feeds him or from whom some kindness is to be expected. Let the last voice she hears be yours OP.
Sure I get that your OH is worried that you may resent him or that this may come up in an argument somewhere down the line. Just tell him he should know you better, your mother never liked him and you've given him the best years of your life (always works for me

 

[Clare85]

A quote from an old PC manual; a horse or pony knows the voice of the one who feeds him or from whom some kindness is to be expected. Let the last voice she hears be yours OP.

This actually brought a tear to my eye as it is exactly how I would feel about any elderly horse of mine. I just couldn't pass on an older horse, even if it was 100% sound. I would hate the thought of uprooting an oldie to new people, sounds and smells where they may never truly settle. It would break my heart because I would be worried it would break the horse's heart to be taken away from its home and security. I know that might sound silly but it's the way I would feel.

 

[PolarSkye]

horses are horses, they are designed to live in the wild.

What utter tosh. Natives are indeed designed to live on the moors/fells, etc., but today's modern sport horses have had a lot of the hardiness bred out of them . . . long/spindly legs (not ideal for encountering potholes), different metabolisms/muscle structure (more fast-twitch versus slow-twitch muscles and burning fuel in different ways with differing fuel requirements).

I realize you back-pedaled a little from your "chuck it out on the moors rather than shoot it" statement, but I do think you are being unbelievably unrealistic. If the OP is struggling financially, resenting her (elderly and infirm/unrideable) mare and decides that for her (and the mare's) future the best thing is to PTS on a sunny day with a belly full of lovely forbidden grub, then that's HER decision - and personally, I salute her for it.

I can't remember who said it - I know there were several - but I wholly agree that rescues are full to bursting (and therefore can't take on more deserving cases in dire need of true "rescue") simply because owners won't make the practical and sensible decision to PTS rather than passing horses from pillar to post.

Sigh.

P

 

[PolarSkye]

This actually brought a tear to my eye as it is exactly how I would feel about any elderly horse of mine. I just couldn't pass on an older horse, even if it was 100% sound. I would hate the thought of uprooting an oldie to new people, sounds and smells where they may never truly settle. It would break my heart because I would be worried it would break the horse's heart to be taken away from its home and security. I know that might sound silly but it's the way I would feel.

This is exactly why we will be Kali's last home - and why, when I think we've reached the end of the road . . . for whatever reason and in consultation with my vet . . . he will be PTS.

P

 

[PercyMum]

For me, this is about facing up to responsibilities. OP bought her horse 6 years ago, when she was 19 (by my calculations). She thought it was younger than it was, but in reality it couldnt have been hugely younger than she thought, maybe 5 years (assuming it was vetted or she had someone with knowledge look at it first?). So to be fairly harsh, why did she buy what was (technically) an aged horse, when she herself was young, living at home, with a realm of possibilities in fornt of her, all of which require cold hard cash? If he had been with the OH for 4 years at that point, was there no discussion of their future and the impact that a horse might have? So essentially, she bought a horse, on minimum wage, with no thought as to what the future might hold. This to me is irresponsible.

However, she does clearly care for the mare. I am glad she does not want to move her on to an uncertain future and frankly, it shouldnt even cross her mind. I know she wants to move on with her life but we make our choices and we live by their outcomes. It is very sad that PTS is a convenient option (although I am not saying its easy by any stretch)- if only everything could be sorted with such convenience. In this case, PTS would appear to be OPs only option if she is unwilling to give the mare a retirement until she cannot comfortably go on. I feel sorry for the mare and can only hope tha the OP thinks very carefully before getting any other animal in the future.

 

[TarrSteps]

For me, this is about facing up to responsibilities. OP bought her horse 6 years ago, when she was 19 (by my calculations). She thought it was younger than it was, but in reality it couldnt have been hugely younger than she thought, maybe 5 years (assuming it was vetted or she had someone with knowledge look at it first?). So to be fairly harsh, why did she buy what was (technically) an aged horse, when she herself was young, living at home, with a realm of possibilities in fornt of her, all of which require cold hard cash? If he had been with the OH for 4 years at that point, was there no discussion of their future and the impact that a horse might have? So essentially, she bought a horse, on minimum wage, with no thought as to what the future might hold. This to me is irresponsible.

However, she does clearly care for the mare. I am glad she does not want to move her on to an uncertain future and frankly, it shouldnt even cross her mind. I know she wants to move on with her life but we make our choices and we live by their outcomes. It is very sad that PTS is a convenient option (although I am not saying its easy by any stretch)- if only everything could be sorted with such convenience. In this case, PTS would appear to be OPs only option if she is unwilling to give the mare a retirement until she cannot comfortably go on. I feel sorry for the mare and can only hope tha the OP thinks very carefully before getting any other animal in the future.

But then people do that sort of thing all the time on here and are met with almost universal encouragement. So many people own multiple horses, even in jobs and situations where there is clearly a lot of volatility. It really is a mixed message - that it's worth *anything* to have/keep a horse . . .right up until the reality is undeniable.

I'm still amazed how many people think it's completely reasonable to expect to live at home indefinitely in order to be able to keep a horse. I guess parents must be okay with this but surely that is a bit of a debatable message, too?

 

[PercyMum]

But then people do that sort of thing all the time on here and are met with almost universal encouragement. So many people own multiple horses, even in jobs and situations where there is clearly a lot of volatility. It really is a mixed message - that it's worth *anything* to have/keep a horse . . .right up until the reality is undeniable.

I'm still amazed how many people think it's completely reasonable to expect to live at home indefinitely in order to be able to keep a horse. I guess parents must be okay with this but surely that is a bit of a debatable message, too?

I agree with all your points! I don't think people should buy horses and keep horses on a shoestring budget - unless they are prepared to make huge and long term sacrifices. Which the OP is not prepared to do, and didn't give enough thought to in the first place.

And I don't think people should live at home indefinately either - its not healthy imo. My Mum 'kicked' me out at 17 (in a nice way!!) and said I could either pay full rent, or find alternate means. It was done with the kindest intentions, ie, making me stand on my own 2 feet. Clearly I had some wobbles and she was there to help me but there was no molly-coddling and she most definately would not have entertained the idea of buying a horse whilst still living at home and not paying my way!! I did buy my first horse whilst renting and quickly bought my first house after. But then I was on a bloody good wage and could afford to do so. And I accepted the reality of what if I coudlnt ride/lost my job etc etc and planned accordingly

I sometimes think people need to factor in the realities of life and how much it costs, especially if you have horses and it goes wrong. And I am sorry if this comes across as snobby and judgemental but I would like to think of it more as cold hard truth!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I sometimes think people need to factor in the realities of life and how much it costs, especially if you have horses and it goes wrong. And I am sorry if this comes across as snobby and judgemental but I would like to think of it more as cold hard truth!

yes, but many 19yos aren't capable of planning that far ahead (and before I get jumped on, I'm sure there are some that are but not those still living at home I'd be guessing). I left home at 16, didnt get my own horse until I was 34 but that doesnt help the OP.

 

[PolarSkye]

yes, but many 19yos aren't capable of planning that far ahead (and before I get jumped on, I'm sure there are some that are but not those still living at home I'd be guessing). I left home at 16, didnt get my own horse until I was 34 but that doesnt help the OP.

Agree on both counts . . . no point beating up the OP for the choices she made (while still relatively young) . . . that doesn't help her make a decision based on her current situation.

P

 

[honetpot]

For me, this is about facing up to responsibilities. OP bought her horse 6 years ago, when she was 19 (by my calculations). She thought it was younger than it was, but in reality it couldnt have been hugely younger than she thought, maybe 5 years (assuming it was vetted or she had someone with knowledge look at it first?). So to be fairly harsh, why did she buy what was (technically) an aged horse, when she herself was young, living at home, with a realm of possibilities in fornt of her, all of which require cold hard cash? If he had been with the OH for 4 years at that point, was there no discussion of their future and the impact that a horse might have? So essentially, she bought a horse, on minimum wage, with no thought as to what the future might hold. This to me is irresponsible.

However, she does clearly care for the mare. I am glad she does not want to move her on to an uncertain future and frankly, it shouldnt even cross her mind. I know she wants to move on with her life but we make our choices and we live by their outcomes. It is very sad that PTS is a convenient option (although I am not saying its easy by any stretch)- if only everything could be sorted with such convenience. In this case, PTS would appear to be OPs only option if she is unwilling to give the mare a retirement until she cannot comfortably go on. I feel sorry for the mare and can only hope tha the OP thinks very carefully before getting any other animal in the future.

Gosh that first paragraph is a bit harsh. You usually buy older horses because they are schoolmasters and a bit cheaper, although the true cost of the horse is always their keep. I bought my teenage daughter a 17 year old TB as her first horse, we bought him knowing that he may have health issues in the future but could not afford a horse with his schooling as a nine year old, he passed a two stage vetting which I was surprised at.
They had a great couple of years together and bless him he was never sick or lame, he was kept like a king and cost me a fortune in feed. She then went to uni, even working part time she could never had afforded to keep him, if she had not had my support she would have to had to try and sell a 19 year old TB who was a money pit or have him PTS. I kept him for seven years until unfortunately we could no longer maintain his body weight and he was becoming progressively stiffer and he was PTS in his field. If I had had to have him PTS when he was 19 he would have not have known anything, the only reason for keeping him was we cared for him, we had are own land and I could afford the haylage and hard feed that he needed to keep him going, it would have just as hard to have him PTS in fact it would have been worse.
Everyone who buys a pony for their child knows that one day they will grow out of it whether they are six or sixteen, either physically, they want something to progress on or they are just want to do something else, usually its boys. I am lucky, at one point I had five of my children's' outgrown equines sat in fields ranging from 12-16 hands, most of them completely unsalable even if I had wanted to sell because of their age, this does not make me a better person. I have a friend who is totally unattached to her daughters ponies/horses and when they are no longer required they are sold or shot, I am not a nicer person than her and all her animals are well looked after.
Life for all of us is not certain, we plan things, we make choices, we get married and sometimes things just not turn out how we thought they would do.

 

[PercyMum]

Yes, it is harsh, but its true.

And no it doesn't help the OP, but I was merely commenting on the situation.

Honetpot - YOU were prpared to pay for the horse, regardless of your daughters choices. You comments also show that you thought through the whole process responsibly. I suspect in the OPs case, she did not. Yes life throws unfortunate and unplanned events at you. However, buying a horse at 19 with a long-term boyfriend surely would inevitably throw up the possibility of a future lack of funds when INEVITABLY she would want to move out???

I am not being deliberately unkind, I'm really not. And fwiw, PTS would be the most responsible option she has, given her comments. But its a position that she shouldn't have got herself into tbh.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

in the last 6 years there's also been a recession and a credit crunch. Many older people around the UK have been struggling with financial decisions and existing animals. I am sure the whole thing has been a life lesson for her. you know, those things that we learn from when we are younger.

 

[Swirlymurphy]

I'm still amazed how many people think it's completely reasonable to expect to live at home indefinitely in order to be able to keep a horse. I guess parents must be okay with this but surely that is a bit of a debatable message, too?

Not all parents would be okay with this! But to be honest it is also up to the parents to have thought ahead and to have advised their (presumably) teenage daughter. 19 year olds are not renowned for their foresight.

 

[Jesstickle]

in the last 6 years there's also been a recession and a credit crunch. Many older people around the UK have been struggling with financial decisions and existing animals. I am sure the whole thing has been a life lesson for her. you know, those things that we learn from when we are younger.

No no. Everyone should just be born with the innate knowledge of where life will take them and what will be involved. Even though they have never experienced it


Do you know how responsible I was at 19? Not very. If you'd asked me if I wanted to move out, have kids, have a boyfriend I'd have said horses were more important to me. They're not now. In ten years a lot has changed as I have gone through life. Funny that.

Perhaps you would all like to chastise me for having the audacity to be young and naive when I was young and naive. Clearly I ought to have known then what I do now somehow....

 

[TarrSteps]

No no. Everyone should just be born with the innate knowledge of where life will take them and what will be involved. Even though they have never experienced it


Do you know how responsible I was at 19? Not very. If you'd asked me if I wanted to move out, have kids, have a boyfriend I'd have said horses were more important to me. They're not now. In ten years a lot has changed as I have gone through life. Funny that.

Perhaps you would all like to chastise me for having the audacity to be young and naive when I was young and naive. Clearly I ought to have known then what I do now somehow....

Everyone has been in that situation! And lots of people have had to make hard, unpleasant decisions when those choices have caught up with them, often in the face of opinions from other people who disagree.

I would agree that this is a particular problem now - the world was literally a different place 6 or 7 years ago and MANY people - most of them grown ups with much more experience of the world - made choices that reflected the outlook at the time. They are now, unfortunately, having to make decisions based on the new reality, one of which is giving up or even putting down beloved animals. Hence the full rescues.

I guess that's why I got a bit annoyed earlier with the number of people saying that, things being what they are, the OP should be prepared to stay at home indefinitely (regardless of her parents' wishes) or "get another job" in a situation where both might be completely unfair expectations.

I guess my only point is that I do wish people - kids, parents, everyone - thought a bit more about what MIGHT happen not just what they hope will happen. I get annoyed when horse people think this is pessimistic or "raining on the parade".

Growing up sucks quite a lot of the time. There are teenagers who are sole carers for their families, let alone a horse, and I bet they have to make sorts of decisions people on the Internet wouldn't agree with.

Good luck, OP. Part of being a grown up is making YOUR OWN decisions and you have to make the best one for you. There is no absolutely right or wrong. If you meet a 16 year old looking to buy a horse in the future, though, you should probably recount your story to them, just for balance.

 

[honetpot]

I think my point is I took on an older horse and as an older adult I took that choice knowing of the consequences whether I had him PTS six months or six years later. The choice is mine, I am not a better person for keeping him alive in fact if he was not kept properly, I could have kept two for what it cost to feed him, I would have been bad owner.
Now when I was eighteen I got my first pony, my family had no money and I learnt to ride scrounging rides off other people. My mum paid £150 for it I was ecstatic, something I had dreamed about from when I was six, and I left school at sixteen to work on a stud farm. About six months later I got a job, worked shifts, didn't drive and then the tin lid, I got a boyfriend. The pony I had dreamed of most of my life was sold with not really much thought. Fortunately or not my mum was not a great thinker about the future and at eighteen I certainly wasn't, and lots of people can not see what is around the corner even though its well sign posted. Most of us are not bad people you just do not know what you don't know and many of us of learn by experience however glowingly obvious its is to an outsider.

 

[khalswitz]

Everyone has been in that situation! And lots of people have had to make hard, unpleasant decisions when those choices have caught up with them, often in the face of opinions from other people who disagree.

I would agree that this is a particular problem now - the world was literally a different place 6 or 7 years ago and MANY people - most of them grown ups with much more experience of the world - made choices that reflected the outlook at the time. They are now, unfortunately, having to make decisions based on the new reality, one of which is giving up or even putting down beloved animals. Hence the full rescues.

I guess that's why I got a bit annoyed earlier with the number of people saying that, things being what they are, the OP should be prepared to stay at home indefinitely (regardless of her parents' wishes) or "get another job" in a situation where both might be completely unfair expectations.

I guess my only point is that I do wish people - kids, parents, everyone - thought a bit more about what MIGHT happen not just what they hope will happen. I get annoyed when horse people think this is pessimistic or "raining on the parade".

Growing up sucks quite a lot of the time. There are teenagers who are sole carers for their families, let alone a horse, and I bet they have to make sorts of decisions people on the Internet wouldn't agree with.

Good luck, OP. Part of being a grown up is making YOUR OWN decisions and you have to make the best one for you. There is no absolutely right or wrong. If you meet a 16 year old looking to buy a horse in the future, though, you should probably recount your story to them, just for balance.

It is difficult, because I was that 16 year old as well, did the responsible thing and sold on before going to uni... and then two years later ended up at uni with another horse! Haven't not had one since, despite shoestring budgets etc. However, I realised how much riding meant to me while I was there, and how much having a horse to ride made my whole life better and more enjoyable. Up until starting my own business, I managed perfectly well on my own finances, and now having started my own business thankfully I've been able to move back in with my parents to take the strain off - but this is something I'd have had to do without a horse as well.

However I've had to give up a lot for horses - I don't spend money on going out socialising (cheap nights in all the way), I don't drink very often, I don't ever buy clothes for myself unless I have no jodhpurs left, I don't spend money on luxuries... even buying new riding boots for myself takes planning ahead. I shop in car boots/secondhand tack shops/Facebook buy/swap/sells. But would I expect everyone to do this, and for 6 or 7 years like I have, with no prospect of it getting better in the next few? No. And I wouldn;t recommend it either, but I am a grownup, and it's my choice. However I *really* wouldn't live like this for a horse I couldn't enjoy riding ever again.

 

[undergroundoli]

I would agree that this is a particular problem now - the world was literally a different place 6 or 7 years ago and MANY people - most of them grown ups with much more experience of the world - made choices that reflected the outlook at the time. They are now, unfortunately, having to make decisions based on the new reality, one of which is giving up or even putting down beloved animals. Hence the full rescues.

This is so true. Who knows what OP has gone through since she got the horse. Redundancy, training programs ended, pay rises not arriving when promised... Its not been the best six years to be starting out in and she wasn't necessarily feckless getting the horse.

 

[EstherYoung]

This is so true. Who knows what OP has gone through since she got the horse. Redundancy, training programs ended, pay rises not arriving when promised... Its not been the best six years to be starting out in and she wasn't necessarily feckless getting the horse.

Indeed. I got my first horse at around the same age, then the late 80s early 90s recession hit and the jobs I thought I'd be able to get as a college leaver didn't materialise. I managed to keep my mare because my parents supported me, but it wasn't easy.

We've got very scant information about the situation here, so don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes and all that. Lots and lots and lots of teenagers and young adults buy horses.