WWYD? Laminitis advice

[Leo Walker]

So tragically after all the dieting and obsessive care, when I finally got Frankie to the right weight and in decent work he came down with laminitis a month later. He was fine the day before, rock crunching, and then he was crippled and swaying. I called the vet, had bute and sedalin and put him on a deep shavings bed. He got better quite quickly, xrays were done that showed no rotation although there may have been some tiny sinking, the vet couldnt be certain and wasnt concerned. I was told absolutely no trimming or shoeing to be done as it could set him back and no pads needed as he had the shavings bed

A week later and he went dog lame on the front. The vets kept coming, looking at him, hoof testing him and just saying carry on as we were. I lost it yesterday, after 3 and a bit weeks of this, and insisted further xrays were done, they tried to book them for a weeks time and after some discussion they came today. Hes got sinking and rotation in the foot he is dog lame on. They still dont seem too concerned but now he has to be trimmed according to the xrays. Still no pads or any treatment other than bute twice a day.

He was booked to have metabolic tests 3 weeks ago but they were cancelled as apparently if he is in pain they will skew the results. I asked for him to have Metformin as clearly hes metabolic, I've always treated him as metabolic and this just confirms it, so I'm happy to treat him without the tests. I was told no. They wont do a cushings test either as hes only 6yrs old. I do understand the reasoning behind this, but I really think it needs doing.

They are now saying that I need to just give it time and recovery could be months. I am concerned that there is no recovery happening and it feels like we are losing him, just very gradually, but that its going to end the same way. I'm also very concerned about his prognosis long term.

These are good vets usually and come recommended by a lot of people. I've used them previously and been very happy. But not so much now! I feel I should have been more proactive, but when 2 different highly qualified vets say the same thing despite pressing then you have to believe them.

There are also issues at the yard, he hasnt had his morning bute 2 days in a row due to his feed being eaten by other animals, I found this out by accident! Things happen and I get that and its not a huge issue if I'd known and could have sorted him out another feed with his bute. All my feed got eaten as well last night, so hes had his bute tonight in chopped straw which I'm very dubious he will eat although he was picking at it when I left him. When pressed they offered me other feed but he cant eat nuts or mix etc. I'll sort new feed out for him tomorrow as soon as somewhere is open. Hes also been fed haylage by someone and I found an empty feed bucket in his stable with the remnants of feed in it. I'm assuming an oversight/accident rather than malice. I'm also concerned that the grass at the current yard doesnt suit and has contributed. I really do like this yard but given what a tight rope I'm currently on, its REALLY not working for us The vets have said he cant move till hes totally sound in walk, but the way its going he may never be totally sound again.

My OH who is non horsey but helps me an awful lot, sat me down tonight and told me to move him NOW as in bed the box up, pad his feet and take him tomorrow morning. He thinks hes going to end up PTS at the current yard whereas if I move him there is a chance he will recover, and if he doesnt then I have lost nothing as he isnt recovering as things stand. The potential new yard has other lammi ponies and has rehabbed 2 with rotation much worse than his. Theres a small team of staff so less chance of mix ups/accidents. They also have post and railed lammi paddocks for if/when he does recover. The whole set up is much better, terrifyingly expensive but if thats what it takes then so be it!

The other plus is i could change vets with no issue whereas at the current yard the vets are their vets and I dont think it would go down well as they are out several times a week to their horses. Not sure how much of an issue that would really be though.

The other option is to PTS. I really, really dont think I can do that though. Hes very bright and happy in himself and looks a million dollars. He loves box rest, he likes being in and having lots of attention. I know he must be hurting but hes a tough little guy, when he came down with it he was incredibly distressed and he really isnt at the minute. But I am aware that hes very young and if he comes right he has a long time in front of him where he will almost certainly have to live grass free and be micromanaged, and realistically one way or another the lammi/metabolic issues will get him in the end. But I dont think I can do that right now when hes happy mentally if not physically

I feel horribly guilty for not going with my gut instinct and letting it get to this stage, but when every vet you see says the same thing despite you asking over and over you start to doubt yourself. When I saw the xrays below I nearly had a heart attack as it confirmed what I was thinking all along

I'm going round in circles with this. Would you risk it and move him? If not what would you do? I've had lots of good advice from people on Facebook (you know who you are and I'm very grateful to you all!) I'm not disregarding it, I'm just making myself ill with worry and I need to make a decision and a plan going forwards

 

[Leo Walker]

Until 2 days ago he was living on ad lib straw with small amounts of high fibre haylage, but I've just changed him onto 24 hour soaked hay as I'm a bit dubious about him living mainly on straw like that. Hes always been fed straw but mixed with hay and he didnt really eat the straw, whereas now he has to. The straw seems to have a lot of hay mixed in it as well. I also think if he has hay people will be less inclined to feed him! He doesnt like soaked hay, for a fat cob hes very fussy! But he was eating it tonight, so hopefully it will be ok.

He also gets big buckets of chopped straw and a tiny feed of pink mash mixed with Top Spec chopped straw twice a day with his bute in. Progressive Earth balancer for laminitics, extra salt and a herbal mix of cinnamon, nettle and milk thistle. I dont know if the latter helps but he eats his feeds better with it in and it cant hurt!

Not sure what else I could do management wise but I am open to suggestions

 

[Equi]

You already know what i think love, you need to get a farrier to do something with his hooves cause just a deep bed won't do anything!

He needs to be fed 24hr soaked hay, never haylage. Maybe some fast fibre if he will eat it to get his bute in (add something like sugarfree apple juice etc if its not nice for him)

I honestly would not move him at the moment as it can be stressful and one of the causes of lami can be stress so it won't be good for him. If your YO yard is not being good enough can you ask someone to help you care for him if you cant be there morning and night every day?

I know how much you are stressing over this love, but don't - its common enough and not something you can predict. Some horses get it some do not no matter their type/weight etc. You're a good owner. Don't ever doubt it.

 

[Leo Walker]

Thanks Equi, I forgot to say hes gone from having fab feet to having slipper feet almost. His toes have gotten really long, his frogs look narrower and his sucli look very deep and manky. I've said every time the vet has come out that I am REALLY worried about the shape of his feet and been told every time to leave them alone. But every day I've looked at them and felt uncomfortable but decided to go with vet advice. They charge me £100 to come and stare at him, so why pay for a vet if you dont take their advice on board!

Hes seen by a trimmer periodically as he pretty much self trims so she checks the balance every few months. She cant come and see him as shes booked till the end of the month, and I think shes annoyed that she wasnt brought on board sooner so now I have to try and find a farrier to work with which is a minefield in itself

 

[Equi]

Thanks Equi, I forgot to say hes gone from having fab feet to having slipper feet almost. His toes have gotten really long, his frogs look narrower and his sucli look very deep and manky. I've said every time the vet has come out that I am REALLY worried about the shape of his feet and been told every time to leave them alone. But every day I've looked at them and felt uncomfortable but decided to go with vet advice. They charge me £100 to come and stare at him, so why pay for a vet if you dont take their advice on board!

Hes seen by a trimmer periodically as he pretty much self trims so she checks the balance every few months. She cant come and see him as shes booked till the end of the month, and I think shes annoyed that she wasnt brought on board sooner so now I have to try and find a farrier to work with which is a minefield in itself

Most farriers will love to "fix" things, 1) because it gives them a bit of business if you have a good experience and it usually drums up repeat business on a very regular basis, 2) because they generally get a good happy feeling knowing they have helped a horse. i hope.

But my point is, don't wait around for someone whos taking the hump - you need someone tomorrow not next month. As long as the farrier is not on your own "can't touch my horse" list they can be worth a go...as long as you are there and can say if they are taking enough off or not

Have you deicded if you want remdeial shoeing of just trim? My barefoot one made my "lami" really square rolled toes and he was much sounder...wasn't lami in the end but definitely sounder lol

 

[Ebenezer_Scrooge]

There are good farriers in your area so don't worry about that bit.

 

[Leo Walker]

I will happily take any recommendations! The last horse who is now finally happy and sound after 3yrs was crippled by one of the supposedly good local farriers. Its difficult as I'm not from here so I dont know who to avoid, whereas where I am from originally I would know exactly who to use and who to avoid!

 

[Spottyappy]

I am amazed your vet has said leave his feet.
The toes need cutting back, which in turn should help the angle of the pedal bone rotation, particularly over time. This is normally done sooner. Vets often want shoes put on to help, but that needs to be a conversation that involves the farrier, as they often have a much better idea of what will help, than a vet imho. They need to work together, however, and that does not sound easy given the vets have said leave the feet alone. Most unusual, they normally have a farrier that they use and recommend but you are under no obligation to use theirs if you have another you're happy with.
This is the shoe my mare was shod in for about 8 weeks after her recent laminitis.
It worked well for her, and after 8 weeks, she has been sound back in traditional shaped shoes.

 

[Auslander]

Mat Alderman isn't a million miles from you, and he's an EXCELLENT farrier (my vet uses him for all her own horses, and for any remedial client work). He came out to see our girl when my farrier was on holiday and I was very impressed

 

[Ladyinred]

Don't give up hope! My Sec D went down with lami at the same age and was hopping lame for weeks. The vet didn't think h would come through but my totally brilliant farrier got him right and I have since found that he is well known in this area for his treatment of laminitics... sadly he isn't your area. Said horse is now 18 and (touchwood) has never had it again, obviously with careful management as well.

We were close to PTS as we couldn't bear seeing him in pain. Get a farrier.. not a trimmer for this... personally I am not inclined to shoe them whilst in pain, but that's just me. I will advise to feed cinnamon if you suspect metabolic disorders, if you do a google search you will see it is some amazing stuff for humans as well as horses.

 

[Red-1]

I have seen some of the issue on another thread. With the current yard I don't think there is an ideal solution. If you do stay there I would laminate a huge notice that only X and Y member of staff may put any feed or hay in the stable or this horse may DIE. That should stop well meaning riding school helpers from feeding.

I am also surprised the farrier has not been involved, and do not think that shavings do half as good a job as pads to support the pedal bone, especially when the stable leaks and the bed is squishy, even if the pads have to be taped on if the horse is too sore to nail.

I would also move to soaked hay, and use a trickle net hung off a roof beam to restrict intake.

As the horse has already been ill, and made worse by a string of accidents on the yard, such as extra feed, wrong haylage, no bute etc, then it does not sound as if he is really safe here.

The other yard sound like they know what they are doing with lami, and because of the horse becoming worse when supposedly being treated, but with accidents happening, plus the new yard being only 5 miles away, then I think you have to weigh up weather he would, in fact, be better moved.

TBH, I don't think anyone will say "move him" as this flies in the face of the vet's recommendation, and if you did move him and he got worse then, for one, I would not be happy with myself. But, I think you have to look at the possible outcomes, and decide if you could live with yourself more if he had another "accident" and was more sick, or if you could live with yourself more if you moved him for all the best reasons, and that went wrong.

I don't think there is a right or a wrong.

Personally I can see you are not confident in your vets, so i would ask for a second opinion form the other vets, This is a common procedure, and in fact one I did myself, when working for the first vet (oops!). Despite working for them I explained that I could not PTS my lovely 5yo for colic without getting a second opinion, and the second vet did, in fact, cure her with just drenching, many times a day! It was a touch awks at work for a while, and when she was later out hunting!

So, I recommend a second opinion and a large notice on the door, as well as a secure cabinet for feed so it cannot go missing, and after that decide what you would feel comfortable with as regards moving the 5 miles in a luxury 3.5 tonne box (if my memory serves me correctly), well bedded down with support pads on.

 

[mystiandsunny]

I would be willing to bet that people are giving your horse food - treats, bits of unsoaked hay if theirs has run out before you get there, the wrong feed...

I have been there - we had lami on and off for over a year, as just as she was getting over each bout, people kept 'feeling sorry' for my mare and giving her little bits of unsoaked hay, or a handful of feed. Every time that happened it came back in full force and she couldn't get better. Eventually I managed to get through to everyone that she was NOT able to have ANYTHING or she would end up dead. She had to stay off the grass and off anything except soaked high fibre forage for another year after that (she had a little pen in the woods with straw on the floor to stop it getting muddy, and haynets hung from the trees), and has lived out on poor grazing ever since. We did end up with some rotation in one hoof. She had ten years of happy ridden work in no pain after that, did dressage to Elementary, some jumping and is now retired age 16 due to arthritis from the pedal bone rotation. I still only give her spillers high fibre cubes and speedibeet in the winter!

 

[TGM]

Recovery from laminitis does take time - my husband is a farrier so I speak to customers with laminitics fairly often. Most of them get very frustrated when they get the horse on a deep bed, change the feed etc and then it seems like the horse is not improving. You have to bear in mind that the foot has been damaged and though you take away the triggers, the damage to the feet takes quite some time to heal, but they do normally come right in the end. I remember one family thinking they might have to PTS a much-loved pony, but with time and patience that pony is now back out jumping and winning again. I am surprised that the vet has advised against trimming the feet though, as this often helps a lot. I remember my husband going to a pony that was quite lame with laminitis, gave it a trim and it walked away sound, the owners thought he was a miracle worker!

 

[Goldenstar]

Get the bute in syringe form that way you know he's had it .
I certainly would put frog supports on him .
Straw can have a bad effect on laminitics so I would stick to well soaked hay .
I do think this a job for a remedial farrier now .
I think your OH's gut feeling is right you need to move your horse to the other yard .
I would not change the vets practise if they are the people the new yard deal with
But I would be seriously on their case .
I am suprised the vets have not got a good farrier to get to work getting the toes back and supporting the foot with shoes or pads .
Awful thing to happen , I dread this happening to Fatty I had him tested for EMS and cushings several time but the tests are always clear the truth is he a good doer who loves to eat and it's a constant battle .
Such such bad luck when you have tried so hard have you any idea what triggered it ?

 

[crabbymare]

I think I would go and talk to the vets at the new yard and show them the xrays. then ask them about moving him since it does not appear to be a long way with possibly some mild sedative for a couple of days to reduce any excitement or stress over being in a new place. then if they say he would be better at the new yars pad out his foot and see if anyone has a hoof boot that you could borrow that would go over the padding for the journey and tell the driver to go extra slow and smooth for him. then get the transporter as close to the stable as possible to load and unload so he walks as short a distance as possible both ends. talking to the vets at the new yard is very important though as they do sound as if they work closely with the yard to rehab cases so should be very much more on the ball than where you are now. until you move I can only echo the big notice saying something like do not feed this horse anything at all as you will kill him. only staff are allowed to give him his feed which is special and contains drugs that are provided by the vet. good luck with it all

 

[Leo Walker]

His feet werent like that when this started. I've said over and over about the toes and was dismissed. I am so glad I pushed for the xrays yesterday. They just come and stare at him for a few minutes then tell me to carry on as I am, but hes getting worse and worse every day. I asked again about pads yesterday and was told no need. I'm making myself ill with worry and its not like I'm very well at the best of times. It looks like as well as the other stuff I've got going on that there is a problem with my heart, but I'm actually wondering if its just down to stress!

I've been awake half the night and I still cant decide what to do! Its one of those damned if you do, damned if you dont situations

 

[JillA]

Lots of good advice on the Laminitis Site, trims. diet, first aid treatment, long term recovery and checking for underlying metabolic issues. First off I would get a GOOD trimmer, and some boots and pads, then talk to them. They have a contact page and a presence on Facebook - they are the reason my horse is back in work and not written off.
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/laminitis.html
Vets are the equivalent to GP doctors, jacks of all trades and unlikely to be in the forefront of current research. TLS is, they are so knowledgeable and TBH, my vet was open enough to accept that I knew the way forward thanks to them.

 

[Leo Walker]

Thanks to Auslander I have managed to get a really good second opinion. Some small changes to be made straight away and they are coming out tomorrow to see him and sort out some different pain relief for him to try and get him comfortable, then back out beginning of next week to work with the farrier to trim his feet in line with the xrays and xray again. Hes also having the safe metabolic tests then and probably starting on Metformin, with a plan for lots more investigation if they dont show anything. And a cushings test which my vets have refused to do.

I got off the phone and burst into tears as I was just relieved to have someone who is fighting his corner. I'm going to leave making a decision about moving him until the vet sees him tomorrow and then go with what they suggest.

 

[Regandal]

So sorry this has happened.
You could give extra cinnamon, make sure it's ceylonese though. It's reckoned to be as effective as metformin at helping insulin resistance.
Big thick pads and rx therapy boots saved my lad.
Good luck.

 

[crabbymare]

Thanks to Auslander I have managed to get a really good second opinion. Some small changes to be made straight away and they are coming out tomorrow to see him and sort out some different pain relief for him to try and get him comfortable, then back out beginning of next week to work with the farrier to trim his feet in line with the xrays and xray again. Hes also having the safe metabolic tests then and probably starting on Metformin, with a plan for lots more investigation if they dont show anything. And a cushings test which my vets have refused to do.

I got off the phone and burst into tears as I was just relieved to have someone who is fighting his corner. I'm going to leave making a decision about moving him until the vet sees him tomorrow and then go with what they suggest.

welll done on being so proactive. hopefully the new vets will help you through this and have him a lot more comfortable quickly.

 

[be positive]

Thanks to Auslander I have managed to get a really good second opinion. Some small changes to be made straight away and they are coming out tomorrow to see him and sort out some different pain relief for him to try and get him comfortable, then back out beginning of next week to work with the farrier to trim his feet in line with the xrays and xray again. Hes also having the safe metabolic tests then and probably starting on Metformin, with a plan for lots more investigation if they dont show anything. And a cushings test which my vets have refused to do.

I got off the phone and burst into tears as I was just relieved to have someone who is fighting his corner. I'm going to leave making a decision about moving him until the vet sees him tomorrow and then go with what they suggest.

That sounds more proactive, I hope it is a step in the right direction, there must be something going on as you have been so careful with him and getting the weight down, to come down with it now just seems so unfair and not a "normal" laminitic episode.

 

[JillA]

?Vets refused to do a Cushings test? Because they don't think he is old enough? Has been found in horses under 10. Good luck with his rehabilitation, sounds as though you now have a plan

 

[Auslander]

Thanks to Auslander I have managed to get a really good second opinion. Some small changes to be made straight away and they are coming out tomorrow to see him and sort out some different pain relief for him to try and get him comfortable, then back out beginning of next week to work with the farrier to trim his feet in line with the xrays and xray again. Hes also having the safe metabolic tests then and probably starting on Metformin, with a plan for lots more investigation if they dont show anything. And a cushings test which my vets have refused to do.

I got off the phone and burst into tears as I was just relieved to have someone who is fighting his corner. I'm going to leave making a decision about moving him until the vet sees him tomorrow and then go with what they suggest.

You're in safe hands! She has been my vet for a number of years, and she's brilliant! We went through a similar situation with the mare here - apathy from the mares vets, so she stepped in and made stuff happen. Our girl is now back in work, out in the field in a carefully controlled way, and living a relatively normal life. I don't think she'd still be with us if O hadn't got involved

 

[atropa]

I really feel for you OP, you've had such a tough time with his weight and the different yards and now this. Laminitis is an absolutely horrendous thing for an owner to have to deal with, and it's so, so much worse when your vet wont listen to you or support you. I'm glad you have someone on your side now.

It sounds to me that your yard is really not taking his health seriously, he needs to have his medication and he needs to have exactly the forage and feed you provide with the consent of your vet. Do they not realise the damage they could be doing to his recovery?!

My mare came down with very mild lami in May after a bout of colic, her xrays showed no rotation and my vet told me not to really change her diet (although I did cut out treats, carrots etc and now only choose LT approved foods for her, and looking back if I had my time again I may have changed her forage too), she was on boxrest for almost 5 months and has only over this past 6 weeks been introduced back into the field. She has a full set of heartbar shoes and supportive gel pads in front every 6 weeks, and in December I will start to wean her back onto normal shoes. In your

Good luck.

 

[Leo Walker]

?Vets refused to do a Cushings test? Because they don't think he is old enough? Has been found in horses under 10. Good luck with his rehabilitation, sounds as though you now have a plan

Yup, which I thought was odd, but they were adamant. Its just not been handled very well and I should have made a fuss sooner, but 2 vets said the same thing and had me doubting myself. They have been brilliant in the past so not quite sure whats gone wrong this time, but whats done is done and we are moving forwards now so it doesnt matter really.

 

[Leo Walker]

It sounds to me that your yard is really not taking his health seriously, he needs to have his medication and he needs to have exactly the forage and feed you provide with the consent of your vet. Do they not realise the damage they could be doing to his recovery?!

I think this is the root of the problem. They've had ponies come down with lammi and recover with no real issues, but my pony isnt getting better and for me hes my only pony not one of many. In other ways they have been absolutely brilliant and are lovely, lovely people, but theres too many helpers and kids for anyone to know for certain that hes not getting fed. Either way its not really working for us so I need to do something. I need to get him comfortable first though

 

[WelshD]

Oh gosh I really feel for you having to make these decisions

I also think Frankie is possibly being fed when you aren't around, he is very charming and I can see how people would want to treat him and there are so many young people there that may not realise the full implications so I would definitely be looking to move him, with the best will in the world there is no way a YO can be everywhere to keep an eye on things with stables in different locations. If the vet says not to move him then I would put the 'do not feed' sign up with very firm wording

When my husband and I saw him the other day we spent a bit of time chatting to him and he was really bright so I certainly wouldn't be thinking too hard about making radical decisions just yet

 

[eggs]

You're in safe hands! She has been my vet for a number of years, and she's brilliant! We went through a similar situation with the mare here - apathy from the mares vets, so she stepped in and made stuff happen. Our girl is now back in work, out in the field in a carefully controlled way, and living a relatively normal life. I don't think she'd still be with us if O hadn't got involved

If O is who I think she is then she has been my vet for many years and Mat has been my farrier since he was an apprentice with Billy Crothers. Highly recommend both and hopefully your are now on the right path with your boy.

 

[Auslander]

If O is who I think she is then she has been my vet for many years and Mat has been my farrier since he was an apprentice with Billy Crothers. Highly recommend both and hopefully your are now on the right path with your boy.

You're close to Amersham then? ;-)

 

[eggs]

Not now but I was! O and Mat come up to me in north Oxon - wouldn't have anyone else.