WWYD - Livery personality problem

[Fidgety]

OP, had I not seen your location, I would have thought you were describing a livery at a yard I was at.

To say 'once you get to know her she's fine' is another way of saying 'shes awful but you'll get used to her'.

If it's true that other liveries have left because of A, then it's not not only unfair on your YO, but also not fair on A who, if she is on some sort of spectrum, could be gently helped on how to engage with fellow yardies.

Also, perhaps A, after so long, now sees the yard as her own and resents or feels threatened by new liveries for some reason. She wouldn't be the first to have chameleon like tendancies depending on whether she is interacting with YO or fellow liveries.

Sorry, having been one (with two others) on the receiving end of an 'A' I'm a tad cynical here.

 

[Pilib]

You could be describing one of my dearest friend when you describe livery A. However with her it all boils down to shyness. She isn't the most socially confident person and she doesn't come across well as a result. I think I was livery B, friendly, bubbly and chatty and was blanked by her regularly but eventually after a few months the barriers came down and we are great friends, she's helped me no end with my horses and is godmother to my first child.
We are all different and just need to find a way to get along. X

 

[Lulup]

YO needs to get Livery A on side, she could make her feel valued and special by confiding in her that she's upset about turnover of liveries/loss of income and asking her to help by making new liveries welcome etc. Nicer option and worth a try in the first instance x

 

[Yardbird]

YO needs to get Livery A on side, she could make her feel valued and special by confiding in her that she's upset about turnover of liveries/loss of income and asking her to help by making new liveries welcome etc. Nicer option and worth a try in the first instance x

Like

 

[Lyle]

Definitely sounds like Livery A is on the spectrum. If so, she really would not be able to help that she is perceived as socially awkward and unfriendly. To be honest, I feel Livery B needs to move on and understand that she doesn't need to be everyone's 'friend'. unless someone is being directly rude, nasty or unpleasant for no legitimate reason, I don't see the problem. Someone giving you direct responses without being bubbly and smiley isn't a reason to get yourself upset!

 

[luckyoldme]

my god, i can t believe that horse and hound forum has now virtually diagnosed someone as having aspergers from a third party description of someone who is not very nice to other people.
Really as a business i would have thought diagnosis of the problem is a doctors job. In black and white terms it boils down to how many liveries are leaving for the same reason (maybe a bit of tactfull research with other folk who have left) if the livery turns out to be the cause then a choice has to be made as to wether it is viable or not to keep a livery who is costing the business a lot of money.

 

[Pedantic]

Livery B needs to kick livery A in the sponge very hard, and then apologize and explain that it's her form of Arseburgers/ Roulettes, but she is willing to put up with her A "personality" if she can put up with hers B, bet situation will sort very quickly.

 

[fatpiggy]

my god, i can t believe that horse and hound forum has now virtually diagnosed someone as having aspergers from a third party description of someone who is not very nice to other people.
Really as a business i would have thought diagnosis of the problem is a doctors job. In black and white terms it boils down to how many liveries are leaving for the same reason (maybe a bit of tactfull research with other folk who have left) if the livery turns out to be the cause then a choice has to be made as to wether it is viable or not to keep a livery who is costing the business a lot of money.

No-one has diagnosed anything, don't be so ridiculous. My first thought on reading OPs first post was Aspergers, especially when it was later stated that the lady is academically very bright. I worked with a chap who wouldn't look you in the eye, was happy in his own academic world at which he was VERY good, and although he would come to the pub or whatever with colleagues he wouldn't join in with conversations. I found that he was a real ale fan and loved cricket so I used to deliberately talk to him about those two subjects, real ale being a particular interest of mine anyway, and he would then chat to me quite happily. Next day, eyes down and not a flicker. His other colleagues said, oh he's just really shy - I said, no he's not, he's on the spectrum I'm certain. And I stand by that. I can't say that about livery A as I have never met her. Academic people often struggle with chat - they live on a different planet to the rest of us. I work in a university and see plenty of them. They can be very self-centred and decidedly harsh about others, especially those in their own field. They can be down right rude, and very demanding. I've developed a thick skin and let it all go over me. In my outside work life I know people who are able to really rub people up the wrong way. But again, I let it go over me and it blows over very quickly. People are all different and in my experience those from hotter climates tend to be more like this. They lose their rag very quickly but five minutes later it is though nothing has happened or they are giving you a hug.

My advice would be to any new liveries, advise them that livery A has a problem with social situations and doesn't like making small talk. Leave her alone and let her get on with her life, and the other liveries with theirs and there shouldn't be a problem. I never socialised with anyone on either of the yards I was on, I just wasn't interested. But if they asked me for a favour or some help, I never refused them. No doubt some people saw me as a bit odd too. Never mind.

 

[Lissie2]

Fatpiggy 100% agree. Didn't make comment about Aspergers lightly. I am diagnosed with it myself, as is my father and niece. You obviously have fairly good knowledge of AsD and know the signs. I'm also a Special Education needs coordinator in a school x

 

[TheOldTrout]

Also agree with Fatpiggy (and I also used to work in a university and 1000% agree about academics! That horrible mix of arrogance and childlike dependance). The other thing that struck me was Livery A working in a high-powered job - maybe the stables are her downtime and she just wants peace and quiet.

 

[FfionWinnie]

My advice would be to any new liveries, advise them that livery A has a problem with social situations and doesn't like making small talk. Leave her alone and let her get on with her life, and the other liveries with theirs and there shouldn't be a problem. I never socialised with anyone on either of the yards I was on, I just wasn't interested. But if they asked me for a favour or some help, I never refused them. No doubt some people saw me as a bit odd too. Never mind.

But then if she does have a social issue does she not then feel even more marginalised than she already does! I don't think the YO should be warning people about her.

Good idea to do some background sleuthing but really at the end of the day unless the woman is deliberately terrible they are all adults and should be able to deal with it.

While the yo thinks she had to drag it out of this other livery, what is to say that she isn't the one who is manipulative!

Personally I think a normal adult would have said, what's A's problem she's a right moan, or whatever, not been so upset "I'm fine" (puke) that someone had to beg and coax it out.

 

[MissTyc]

I have a livery who sounds like just like this.
She'd been with us 7 yrs, looks after her horses like clockwork, pays on time.
Over the years we have come to the agreement that I let new liveries now that my livery A is stressed, busy, and mad as a hatter (as in, she has asked me to tell people this so they know not to bother her). They leave her alone and frequently even forget she exists as she doesn't talk to anyone. Some of the other longer term liveries seem to have wormed their way into my livery A's affections, as have I, but it wasn't easy. Just like yours, however, in case of emergency she can be counted on going above and beyond to help out and this is a valuable attribute. Has she driven me utterly round the bend? Oooooooh yes, many times, but mostly I rationalise it as needing her own space and panicking in the face of any form of conversation or interaction.

(My livery A does tend to do her horses between 5-7am on weekends so she meets as few people as possible! She does have some friends on the yard these days thankfully. They work together in total silence. Doesn't suit most people!)

 

[ester]

Everyone can force a smile and say hi.!

No we really can't, or it doesn't even occur to us without thinking about it. I'm great in the evenings when I have 'warmed' up to what is expected. 7am nope, not so much!

my god, i can t believe that horse and hound forum has now virtually diagnosed someone as having aspergers from a third party description of someone who is not very nice to other people.
Really as a business i would have thought diagnosis of the problem is a doctors job. In black and white terms it boils down to how many liveries are leaving for the same reason (maybe a bit of tactfull research with other folk who have left) if the livery turns out to be the cause then a choice has to be made as to wether it is viable or not to keep a livery who is costing the business a lot of money.

No what has happened is that some of us have thought, well I sound just like livery A and I would hate to be asked to leave a yard because of my problems with social communication. Livery A could have anything or nothing 'wrong' but no one should be asked to leave a yard just because they don't smile and chat and have a blunt way of talking.

It is also interesting you stay it is worse when she is nervous about riding her horse, higher anxiety levels would tend to make it worse.

Livery B does need to learn that not everyone likes everyone else though, that doesn't mean she can't go and get her horse in or that the world is ending.

and this is the first time that any livery has said anything to the YO.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Is yard run as hobby or business?
If business then if livery spaces easy to fill - do nothing. If spaces more difficult to fill then if suspect A is causing liveries to leave get shot of her.
If hobby, get shot of A as don't need the hassle.
Simple bloke logic

 

[ester]

Everyone can force a smile and say hi. Livery A sounds like a trouble maker. I think gin sounds like a plan, failing that your friend needs to approach Livery A about her attitude. What an awful job!

Only one livery has said anything, a new one and only the YO's hubby not the YO think liveries MAY have left over the years because of her. She has a been a good, paying client who keeps to herself yet she should leave!?!

 

[JillA]

My first reaction was...............is this a livery yard or a childrens playground? If livery B has a problem with livery A, why can't she deal with it without involving he headmaster, sorry YO. A third party only makes matters worse, get her in a quiet area and in a non confrontational (i.e. adult) way explain that some of the things that have been said upset her. It's called being assertive, not accusatory, as in "I feel as though you are accusing me" not "You are rude".
If my liveries moan about each other, especially weight not being pulled, I tell them to go and deal with it themselves - I can't step in unless/until it has got to the blows stage.

 

[fatpiggy]

But then if she does have a social issue does she not then feel even more marginalised than she already does! I don't think the YO should be warning people about her.

Good idea to do some background sleuthing but really at the end of the day unless the woman is deliberately terrible they are all adults and should be able to deal with it.

While the yo thinks she had to drag it out of this other livery, what is to say that she isn't the one who is manipulative!

Personally I think a normal adult would have said, what's A's problem she's a right moan, or whatever, not been so upset "I'm fine" (puke) that someone had to beg and coax it out.

I didn't say warn, I said advise. The same as I would if I had a livery who eg. had a problem with OCD and couldn't stand a messy yard. My neighbour opposite has it and knows that it is ridiculous that she finds it nearly impossible to pick up fresh fruit and veg in the shop because other people have handled it before her, but she still can't bring herself to do it. So I know that if I toddle across the road to say hello or ask her to feed my cat for the weekend, I need to be sure I've not come direct from doing the garden and am not wearing my worst, dirtiest jacket and my hands are clean. People can't help having problems like this, and if we are lucky enough to be unaffected ourselves we should try to accommodate others.

If Livery A has a high powered stressfull job then maybe the last thing she wants is people messing about/chatting and in her eyes, wasting her time. Stressed people quite often take it out on the nearest person to hand. I once had an academic phone the office and the person he wanted to speak to wasn't there for the morning. He really went off on one, effing and blinding so I put the phone down on the desk, and when it stopped squeaking, picked it up and asked if there was anything to do to help. Having got it off his chest, he was fine and apologised at the end of the call for his bad language.

 

[paddy555]

.

It is also interesting you stay it is worse when she is nervous about riding her horse, higher anxiety levels would tend to make it worse.

.

yes that jumped out at me. Don't forget people with aspergers have no choice about anxiety and worrying. They can no sooner stop it than stopping the tide coming in. Worry and anxiety lead to stress. All she probably wants at those times is to be left alone. That is not being unfriendly or unsociable. it is simply someone coping with their problem in the best way they can. People don't usually chose aspergers. Rather than chucking her out perhaps people should be a little more understanding.

 

[fatpiggy]

yes that jumped out at me. Don't forget people with aspergers have no choice about anxiety and worrying. They can no sooner stop it than stopping the tide coming in. Worry and anxiety lead to stress. All she probably wants at those times is to be left alone. That is not being unfriendly or unsociable. it is simply someone coping with their problem in the best way they can. People don't usually chose aspergers. Rather than chucking her out perhaps people should be a little more understanding.

Totally agree. It is kind to ensure that people aren't made to feel excluded, but people with Aspergers often just don't do the social stuff, and by effectively forcing them to join in it is just piling the stress on. You have no idea what horror I can turn into if someone tries to make me eat prunes

 

[FfionWinnie]

I didn't say warn, I said advise. The same as I would if I had a livery who eg. had a problem with OCD and couldn't stand a messy yard. My neighbour opposite has it and knows that it is ridiculous that she finds it nearly impossible to pick up fresh fruit and veg in the shop because other people have handled it before her, but she still can't bring herself to do it. So I know that if I toddle across the road to say hello or ask her to feed my cat for the weekend, I need to be sure I've not come direct from doing the garden and am not wearing my worst, dirtiest jacket and my hands are clean. People can't help having problems like this, and if we are lucky enough to be unaffected ourselves we should try to accommodate others.

If Livery A has a high powered stressfull job then maybe the last thing she wants is people messing about/chatting and in her eyes, wasting her time. Stressed people quite often take it out on the nearest person to hand. I once had an academic phone the office and the person he wanted to speak to wasn't there for the morning. He really went off on one, effing and blinding so I put the phone down on the desk, and when it stopped squeaking, picked it up and asked if there was anything to do to help. Having got it off his chest, he was fine and apologised at the end of the call for his bad language.

Warn / advise it makes no matter what words are used. It is drawing attention to something for no reason.

What makes your neighbour any more "ridiculous" than you are in thinking it's ok to go over dressed in dirty clothes? Why is she the "different" one?

If someone is avoiding eye contact, conversations and generally keeping themselves to themselves WHY does livery B need told to leave her alone. Just because livery B is a bubbly "friendly" type (actually she sounds really irritating to me!) does that mean she automatically gets to be the "socially acceptable" one? If so why!

 

[ester]

Totally agree. It is kind to ensure that people aren't made to feel excluded, but people with Aspergers often just don't do the social stuff, and by effectively forcing them to join in it is just piling the stress on. You have no idea what horror I can turn into if someone tries to make me eat prunes

Actually to those I have spoken to working in the field and other girls most females with aspergers do want to do the social stuff, and get a whole lot of additional frustration that we find it difficult and are more prone to depression if we aren't getting that social interaction so the right people helping us do that is actually much appreciated not an additional stressor. We crave being around people but then fail at it whereas males tend to be happier in their own company with their special interests and not craving the input of others. Obviously still generalisations but there are some noticeable gender differences.

 

[9tails]

(actually she sounds really irritating to me!)

Me too!

So Livery A isn't chatty, tends to blank people and when she does open her mouth sensitive flowers take umbrage. These non-chatty people tend to be the ones I get on with.

 

[ester]

I don't want the rest of the yard to know why some days I might seem off with them. Or why I might only manage a 'hi' while hiding in Frank's stable. That is no one's business but my own so long as I am not going round starting rumours, telling lies or screaming at people . My horse is my down time, it is problematic that that often requires a certain amount of human interaction even on our small yard but he is mostly worth it , I shouldn't have to put on the face that I have to for the other 8 or 9 hours a day while at work during my down time as it is pretty shattering. But I don't want people to ignore me either, I can do small talk chat pretty well at times and like a natter

I also love to be invited for things and will usually go if I know enough people going/am in a suitable place in my head . I'd feel pretty bad if I thought I was being intentionally left out of things even if the intention behind that was helpful. I've never felt forced to join in? I'm not sure how someone would do that.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Ester I'm having you on my yard over livery B, any day of the week!

 

[applecart14]

Sounds very much like a person we used to have on our yard. I used to try my hardest to get on with her, and would always say hello or talk to her. She never changed and would only ever grunt hello at me and it used to upset me as I like to think that I get on okay with most folks. I actually made it my mission in life that I would get her to like me but of course you can't make people like you. Then one day I thought 'sod it', bit the bullet and approached her and asked if I had upset her, and if so in what way and could we discuss it like adults. She strongly denied there was a problem between us and didn't understand what I was talking about.

She then left the yard and I bumped into her sometime after I had left the same yard. She couldn't have been nicer towards me and acted as if nothing had ever happened. It blew me away her total attitude change towards me. In fact she even told the YO that I was a lovely livery and put a good word in for me at her new yard where I ended up moving to.

I suspect she had a hidden agenda. At the time she wanted someone to hack out with. She then left the yard whereas I remained. If I bump into her at a show she will say hello but her chattiness had totally disappeared again and she is a bit like she was all those years ago, which is really sad.

All I can say is that I tried very hard.

Maybe Livery A isn't happy at the yard but can't tell you or your friend this herself. Or maybe she just isn't a peoples person, or is on the autistic spectrum and finds social interaction hard. A survey has shown that 1% of all adults met the diagnostic criteria for having a autism spectrum disorder without being aware that they had the disorder and that although its more common in males, females appear to be better at disguising the condition (article in The Independent, 2011).

 

[fatpiggy]

Warn / advise it makes no matter what words are used. It is drawing attention to something for no reason.

What makes your neighbour any more "ridiculous" than you are in thinking it's ok to go over dressed in dirty clothes? Why is she the "different" one?

If someone is avoiding eye contact, conversations and generally keeping themselves to themselves WHY does livery B need told to leave her alone. Just because livery B is a bubbly "friendly" type (actually she sounds really irritating to me!) does that mean she automatically gets to be the "socially acceptable" one? If so why!

I didn't say my neighbour was ridiculous, she says it of herself and it really drives her crazy as she loves cooking. It also means doing her shopping takes her way longer than she likes since she has to summon up the courage to pick items off the shelves. And I don't think it is ridiculous either that if I interrupt my gardening it is likely I will be less than clean. Dirt comes with gardening.

Words do matter actually. Many people are so lazy and unread these days that they don't know the difference between would have/ would of and may I instead of can I so they are unlikely to manage proper words with real meanings. Like advise and warn. If you go to buy a car and your more mechanically minded friend who goes with you whispers (so the salesman can't hear) that the wings are full of plastic filler, the brake lights don't work and it makes funny noises when it starts, do you thank him or ask him to mind his own business? Some people can look completely 'normal' but are perhaps deaf. So if you introduce them to a friend, would you not say please make sure you are facing her before you start speaking so that she can lip-read ? Or do you leave the friend to think they are ignorant and ignoring them?

 

[Luci07]

Actually, the real issue seems to the YO husband who now has a bee in his bonnet about Livery A. That is something she needs to address to keep the peace in her own home!

 

[FfionWinnie]

I didn't say my neighbour was ridiculous, she says it of herself and it really drives her crazy as she loves cooking. It also means doing her shopping takes her way longer than she likes since she has to summon up the courage to pick items off the shelves. And I don't think it is ridiculous either that if I interrupt my gardening it is likely I will be less than clean. Dirt comes with gardening.

Words do matter actually. Many people are so lazy and unread these days that they don't know the difference between would have/ would of and may I instead of can I so they are unlikely to manage proper words with real meanings. Like advise and warn. If you go to buy a car and your more mechanically minded friend who goes with you whispers (so the salesman can't hear) that the wings are full of plastic filler, the brake lights don't work and it makes funny noises when it starts, do you thank him or ask him to mind his own business? Some people can look completely 'normal' but are perhaps deaf. So if you introduce them to a friend, would you not say please make sure you are facing her before you start speaking so that she can lip-read ? Or do you leave the friend to think they are ignorant and ignoring them?

It's still not about words, it's about turning someone into a social pariah because you perceive them to be different to you or to the norm. Using "nice" words to do such a thing doesn't make it any more palatable.

If your neighbour told me she was ridiculous because she doesn't like picking up things loads of others have handled I would say to her you know I totally agree with you, the same thing crosses my mind and it's not ridiculous at all it's a perfectly reasonable thought. Then I might mention some strategies I've come up with for myself in that scenario. I don't have ocd, but I don't need to have it to be able to empathise with her. We all have our quirks.

Whatever livery A's problem is, perceived or otherwise, there are all sorts of people in the world. If livery B can't be adult enough to realise that not everyone enjoys the sort of social interaction she favours, and takes this as a personal insult, then perhaps it is indeed her who has a social communication issue and not Livery A who possibly just wants a quiet life!

 

[luckyoldme]

No-one has diagnosed anything, don't be so ridiculous. My first thought on reading OPs first post was Aspergers, especially when it was later stated that the lady is academically very bright. I worked with a chap who wouldn't look you in the eye, was happy in his own academic world at which he was VERY good, and although he would come to the pub or whatever with colleagues he wouldn't join in with conversations. I found that he was a real ale fan and loved cricket so I used to deliberately talk to him about those two subjects, real ale being a particular interest of mine anyway, and he would then chat to me quite happily. Next day, eyes down and not a flicker. His other colleagues said, oh he's just really shy - I said, no he's not, he's on the spectrum I'm certain. And I stand by that. I can't say that about livery A as I have never met her. Academic people often struggle with chat - they live on a different planet to the rest of us. I work in a university and see plenty of them. They can be very self-centred and decidedly harsh about others, especially those in their own field. They can be down right rude, and very demanding. I've developed a thick skin and let it all go over me. In my outside work life I know people who are able to really rub people up the wrong way. But again, I let it go over me and it blows over very quickly. People are all different and in my experience those from hotter climates tend to be more like this. They lose their rag very quickly but five minutes later it is though nothing has happened or they are giving you a hug.

My advice would be to any new liveries, advise them that livery A has a problem with social situations and doesn't like making small talk. Leave her alone and let her get on with her life, and the other liveries with theirs and there shouldn't be a problem. I never socialised with anyone on either of the yards I was on, I just wasn't interested. But if they asked me for a favour or some help, I never refused them. No doubt some people saw me as a bit odd too. Never mind.

personally i dont think im being ridiculous, i do think its a bit ridiculous for folk to start speculating on a strangers medical history based on one paragraph. As far as i read the ops question it was what would you do in that situation. i personally would nt be to concerned about loosing liveries if it was a hobby or i did nt need the income. (not that i run a livery business) I do however run a business and have had customers that cost me too much money , i do need the income so it is a black and white descision for me. You can t run a business if you have no customers, and if i was running a livery with one customer making all the others feel unwelcome then i would leave the diagnosing to the doctors and pull the rug on the customer. That is supposing that this is the reason for a number of customers leaving.

 

[ester]

No, I just think people were highlighting that sometimes there are reasons people aren't all bubbly, smiley and chatty and that doesn't mean that they are a bad person, or being like that 'on purpose' or that they should be thrown out of a yard they have otherwise been an excellent customer on :eek3:.

she hasn't made all the others unwelcome!! ONE, new, livery has mentioned that she was upset by her and it could be that one livery is for some reason very easily upset and thinks that everyone should be chatty and happy and irritating all the time.