WWYD re incontinence/failing back end?

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FreddiesGal

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I have an "old" Staff who will be 11 in January.

He seems happy enough, wolfs down his dinners and rushes to the door to go for his walks. However, during the past year or so his back legs/hips are getting weaker and weaker to the point where sometimes he'll stumble up the stairs/fall over etc. When walking his back legs seem to work at an entirely difference pace to his front end. A couple of different vets have said he's got arthritis. He gets at least 1 30 min walk a day, and various little walks after that. We give him Cod Liver Oil plus various other vits + mins.

The main problem is that in the past few months he has started using the house as a toilet. It's gotten to the point where I am finding (honking!!) smelling surprises everyday on the floor.

He seems happy in himself but it's got me wondering when to PTS?
 
Interesting as my 15 year old lab is the same now. She is still herself and happy and likes going out for 15 minute walks, but she messes in the house almost daily and is struggling on her back legs more and more. Awful times :( Will be interested to see what people's opinions are of your dog OP.
 
Has the vet suggested any treatments which might help him? I give my dog Synoquin and the pedigree joint care chews which have improved his stiffness or I know some people have had success with the cartrophen injections. Don't know about the incontinence thing but perhaps a change of diet might help. I would have a chat with your vet. It seems a shame to consider PTS if he is still happy and enjoying some good quality of life.
 
When the dog cannot toilet itself (it can be quite upsetting for them) and struggles to get up/walk unaided then it is time for me to call it a day. That's entirely my own opinion though and dealing with large, weightbearing dogs.

Bear in mind it might also be CDRM which is a neurological condition not related to arthirtis/dysplasia, where the messages from the brain do not reach the back legs properly. Early signs include scuffing of back paws on hard surfaces and inflexibility of back toes.
 
when our old rotti got to the stage when she was incontinent and struggling on her walks we made the decision to pts. i know there are 101 things the vet can suggest to try but at her age and size i felt it was time to let her go with a bit of dignity.
 
CaveCanem said:
When the dog cannot toilet itself (it can be quite upsetting for them) and struggles to get up/walk unaided then it is time for me to call it a day. That's entirely my own opinion though and dealing with large, weightbearing dogs.
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I agree with CC (my experience being with Labs) but it can be tricky pinpointing the right time to pts as they can appear very happy in themselves and have healthy appetites and be seeming to enjoy life still, but actually finding the toileting issues rather distressing.

With my last one it was very obvious that she hated being messy (having been incredibly clean since a tiny puppy). I currently have a 13 year old Lab who I am watching closely as he is going the same way but being an outdoor dog he is not apparently as bothered. With him it will be a case of when he can't get up without help, but I won't let him go too long :(

Not a very definitive answer OP but you are not alone.
 
Our old dog (now 15) was much improved in mobility after we bought him a magnetic collar - worth a go for not much money? He really improved, was much less stiff after long walks etc. :)
 
Thank you for the replies everyone.

To me it would seem such a shame to put him to sleep now despite the issues. I can definitely understand why some people would though and I would probably consider it more seriously if he seemed in any way distressed.

The interesting thing is that he never goes for a wee in the house, only a poo! And it's not diarrhea either, it seems to just be a case of "Ahhh, can't wait..must.poop.now!"

He never seems worried about doing it (then again, he's always been very "chilled" when it comes to being told what to do) He simply toddles off, does his business, then pops himself back down on the rug again.

:confused:
 
our old dog aged 15(a mongrel) used to know she wanted to go but poo would come out on the way to the garden and then when she squatted in the garden there was nothing there....she then started to be very shaky on her legs and we decided that she was not really enjoying life so pts. have never regrettted it as felt it was the best for her......not too good for us though!!!!!! im sure you will know when your boy is not happy but its never an easy decision to make...good luck
 
Our old border terrier is dirty in the house now so we have kind of reverted to puppy treatment. She sleeps in a cage and is clean in that. We open the door in the morning before we let her out of the cage so she goes straight out. In the day if she is shut in she is in her cage or shut in the back part of the house, easy clean floor! TBH as long as we watch her like you would a pup and put her out whenever she wakes up, has a drink or has eaten she is OK.
She is a bit senile I think and just does it when the need arises now. She is trembly on her legs and has rimadyl for her arthritis.
 
Have the same with my 14.5 year old Border Collie. She is struggling and her back legs turn out when she is tired. She's been on daily Metacam for over a year now which really helps & liver/kidney function regularly checked & no issues.

Recently we have had a few accidents - usually in the morning with 2 or 3 'rabbit' poops so not because she is unwell! Considering she has access to outside at all times at night, I am thinking she's very deeply asleep and doesn't really come round enough to realise she needs to go.

It's frustrating as she is so well in herself but back end very weak and very little muscle.

We will just keep an eye on her and see how she goes.....:(
 
Poor golden oldies. :(

The worst time was when he slept in my bedroom one night about 3 months ago. I got up at about 3 in the morning to go to the loo and felt something squidgy between my toes..

Yes, you guessed it.

Cleaning up trodden in poo half asleep at 3 in the morning was not my finest moment!
 
Has the vet offered any pain relief if he believes it is arthritis? It is very hard to comment without knowing your dog, if he is only losing his back legs occasionally and doesn't seem stressed by the incontinence then I would see if pain relief makes a difference. Ultimately quality of life is the important thing imo, and I do believe you can see when a dog is losing this, but it is a decision only an owner can make.
 
MurphysMinder said:
Has the vet offered any pain relief if he believes it is arthritis?
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The vet suggested giving him a series of injections. Before that we wanted to try giving him Devils Claw and Glucosomine. We also give him MSM.

If it gets to the point where he needs injections I think we will PTS.

ETA. It's very hard to judge with him. Shout "biscuit" and he'll practically bolt to the kitchen at full speed. He lives for his walks even if he does tire quickly, and will trot along quite happy oblivious to his wayward backend until he stops and pulls to go home.
 
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cartrophen injections are very good! the odd poop is preferable to incontinance! if poop is the issue can you adjust his feed/feed times? if otherwise happy and mobile you just need to deal with this! if struggling to get up and about and not happy in himself then maybe there is another solution. not the easiest! good luck and cherish your oldie!
 
The thing is, he doesn't act old. It's purely physical. If I were to PTS now I would feel as though I was cutting his life short just because of arthritis.

I would be the first to PTS if I thought he was in any type of pain but he just doesn't appear to be.

Thank you "ofcourseyoucan". He is generally fed little and often through out the day on a very mixed diet. He has never been fed "dog food" as such, we always cook up a load of veggies/rice/meat/pasta for them. Maybe it's time to look into some dry food for him to slow down the "bowel movement".
 
Have you spoken to your vet about dementia ? My old girl ( collie/terrier) got to 13 then started to poop in the house, not knowing where she was and standing facing the corner. I didnt know at the time, but there are drugs that can help a little with this condition, might be worth asking your vet if this is the cause of her pooping.

She also had CDRM, despite my vet saying she was the wrong mix of breeds for CDRM ! It was diagnosed at Langford Vet school. We persevered for about a year, but when she started not wanting to go on a walk I knew it was time. It broke my heart, but I knew I was keeping her going for me.
 
Teaselmeg - We haven't as of yet. I suppose it would be interesting to see what he thinks about dementia. He might have a little and I know dementia can be the cause of incontinence, but I would be more inclined to think that the pooing in the house is more a case of degeneration or weakened muscles in the pelvic area maybe.

Either that or he knows winters looming :rolleyes:
 
It's a tough one. Part of me would consider PTS before his hips got any worse etc. I've always said to myself that if they started messing themselves/falling over etc that's what I would do. But if he is otherwise enjoying life ...... Tough choice and one I don't envy you. It's easy to offer advice when it's not your own beloved dog and your own heart breaking decision.
 
my sympathies as i went through this 18 months ago with my 15 year old lab.
His back end started to fail him too and i agonised for months over what to do. All I can say is that you will know when the time is right. I came home at lunch one day and my boy couldnt get his back end up off the floor to walk across the living room - not helped that all our floors are either tiled or wooden. I had to help him up and he went to lay in the kitchen and the same happened. I knew it was time. Big hugs x
 
my understanding is that arhtritis is usually painful although I may be wrong there. I know the arthritis I get in my hand is very painful but there is more than one type.

As their back end fails the strain of getting up can cause some dogs to poo.

Personally I will pts if my dogs become incontinent, falling down, stuggling to get up or unable to walk these would be defining points for me but every dog and owner are different. I would however try the basics like pain relief (metacam, carprogesic and the like) I would also try the cartrophen injections but again its a decision that has to made by an owner who knows their own dog.

What I dont understand is the idea that people wont put the dog down whilst the dog seems happy, why does the time have to dictated by the dog reaching the point that its depressed, unhappy or in enough discomfort for it to be visible?

The animal does not know it is being pts, it wont blame you and tbh if I could do it for my poor old nan I would stop her suffering so I will certainly do it for my dogs.

Its not gonna be easy it never is but its ineveiyable and you can prevent lots of suffering
 
If vet has suggested cartrophen jabs, I would definately go that route and try them before making any decisions.

My golden oldie had them 22 months ago and has just started his second course (they give four jabs, each a week apart); the difference it has made is amazing.
 
He may only be incontinent because the arthritis is making it difficult for him to get up after lying down for long periods. We had a very similar situation with my 13 year old dalmatian earlier this year and were considering pts. As a last resort I tried turmeric and we've not looked back. She is now having a proper walk in the morning and a good romp round the paddock in the afternoon and again in the everning and is not having any medication from the vet. She is also on http://www.equimins-online.com/blooming-pets/179-blooming-pets-flexijoint-powder-.html and a cod liver oil tablet but it seems to be the turmeric which made the difference. I did originally use the turmeric powder but found it made her very thirsty so she just has one of these a day now: http://www.healthspan.co.uk/herbal/turmeric/productdetail-p398-c118.aspx

It did only take a few days to start seeing a difference so if it works you'll know quickly. Good luck, I hope you find what works for your dog :)
 
Because IME he still has a quality of life. Yes he can be slow, but that doesn't stop him bolting out the door or having a "crazy" moment out on a walk.

As stated before I would be the very first person to have him put down if I thought he was un happy in any way, but I truly don't think he is.

Jools, an interesting read. In a way I can see where you are coming from, and I certainly agree with this approach with horses. Taking the fact that he is a beloved member of the family out of the equasion (which I have been doing whilst trying to come to this decision) I just wouldn't see fit putting to sleep a "happy" dog.

And in answer to your question Maesfen, if you read previous posts that is exactly my problem. There are no signs what so ever that he is in pain, just an appearance of a weakened back-end.
 
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dalidaydream said:
He may only be incontinent because the arthritis is making it difficult for him to get up after lying down for long periods. We had a very similar situation with my 13 year old dalmatian earlier this year and were considering pts. As a last resort I tried turmeric and we've not looked back. She is now having a proper walk in the morning and a good romp round the paddock in the afternoon and again in the everning and is not having any medication from the vet. She is also on http://www.equimins-online.com/blooming-pets/179-blooming-pets-flexijoint-powder-.html and a cod liver oil tablet but it seems to be the turmeric which made the difference. I did originally use the turmeric powder but found it made her very thirsty so she just has one of these a day now: http://www.healthspan.co.uk/herbal/turmeric/productdetail-p398-c118.aspx

It did only take a few days to start seeing a difference so if it works you'll know quickly. Good luck, I hope you find what works for your dog :)
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Interesting you linked me to Healthspan - I have just spent £90 on their vits and mins!
 
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