WWYD (vet treatment options) - horse with hock/back issues

[throwawayaccount]

LEC - that's a good idea, she does like likits and she licks a lot, so maybe a horselyx would help too or something similar. ETA: previously without the domo gel, she would just run through you (if not tied up and she was being held, if tied she breaks the twine). she is quite strong. the domo dosage has been dropped right down and i'm happy to try any suggestions that would help. thanks for that suggestion, sometimes its just the simple things- i find my head gets caught up in it all. the focus is resharpened here, so thank you for all your advice!! xx

tiddlypom - she's not been seen by either, my vet hasn't mentioned that at all- only physio, but from the feedback on here i'm inclined to contact someone- I have read up on Tom Beech and really like the sound of him. thank you for your comment, as it helps give my mare the best chance. i'm based in cheshire if that helps xx

 

[Tiddlypom]

Tom Beech is very well known. I am also in Cheshire, and can thoroughly recommend Angela Holland, chiro vet. She formerly worked for years as a conventional vet at Leahurst, so there is very little that she hasn't come across before.

She is utterly brilliant.

https://www.equineveterinarywellnessclinic.co.uk/

 

[scats]

Tom Beech is very well known. I am also in Cheshire, and can thoroughly recommend Angela Holland, chiro vet. She formerly worked for years as a conventional vet at Leahurst, so there is very little that she hasn't come across before.

She is utterly brilliant.

https://www.equineveterinarywellnessclinic.co.uk/

Another who recommends Angela Holland.

 

[throwawayaccount]

thanks tiddlypom and scats, did she work at leahurst around 2010? i remember an angela, she was really nice and professional.

my mare has physio for 27th, and she is off her bute completely by the 22nd- just wondering if it would make a difference if treated on bute or not ...

 

[Tiddlypom]

She could very well be the same Angela that you saw at Leahurst . She initially trained there and went on to be a Principle Veterinary Surgeon there, she worked there for nearly 9 years. I think that scats had her as her regular vet at that time. I've only known her as a chiro vet, I've been using her for three years now.

Horse needs to be off bute for a minimum of 48 hours before a treatment, but I doubt that you'd get an appointment before 27th anyway. She's in demand.

 

[scats]

thanks tiddlypom and scats, did she work at leahurst around 2010? i remember an angela, she was really nice and professional.

my mare has physio for 27th, and she is off her bute completely by the 22nd- just wondering if it would make a difference if treated on bute or not ...

Yes she was at Leahurst at that time. Ive known Angela since around 2007, she was my go-to vet the whole time she worked at Leahurst.
She has made a huge difference to my girls and I have her out to see them every 3 months.

 

[Casey76]

Likits/similar Licking products are the answer while shoeing. The licking promotes relaxation much more than treats/feed does.
I never tie up - always hold them so they can’t hit pressure and when they don’t need work being done by farrier you walk them round and round and only stop when farrier needs to do something. This keeps the muscles moving and they get bored and tend to be happier about standing still. I often will lunge tricky ones first as well. Warms up the muscles.

one of the farriers at my old yard managed to wean my friend’s mare off full vet sedation to nothing using an old fashioned molasses lick at judicious points in the shoeing process.

 

[hock]

First of all I’m really sorry you’re going through this, it’s heart breaking and I imagine taking up every spare thought right now.

I very sadly lost a beautiful horse that I didn’t have for long. What I learnt through losing this horse was to throw everything at it right at the start. He had hoof asymmetry which caused a very stilted walk and he was very tense when ridden (Next time your at an elite auction and you’ve had a well oiled night don’t be tempted to buy the unseen very flashy last lot of the day).
My trainer had a fantastic farrier and a course of action was decided on. The horse had started to relax under saddle and yes we were concerned but happy we were sorting it. Teeth and back were checked, regular body work was needed but to be expected bearing in mind the asymmetry.

It just so happened that a vet from the Netherlands was visiting the yard and I thought I might as well get the orange dude booked in. Her name is Margareet Lameris and I will always be in awe of her ability and tenacity. It doesn’t matter if she is treating my feral mare that will never have a job to the orange dude with the super breeding, I know that they will have the absolute best. Margreet had concerns with his neck, maybe a facet joint but without xrays hard to know where to go re: treatment. Off he went to Newmarket the next week. Sadly the orange dude was pts that same day, he was a wobbler.

I have never ever regretted buying that horse. He was so let down by the people that bred/produced him and then shipped him off to the UK when he couldn’t make the grade (and they bloody love wobblers on the continent). We are so very broke after this experience but lucky we very quickly got to the bottom of the problem.

It’s really opened my eyes. I don’t think anything should be looked at in isolation when it comes to health. And we have to get our horses seen by the very best people that are educated and dedicated. And lastly we have to educate ourselves so we know and recognise these people.

I wish the absolute best outcome for your mare, I bet she’s full of relief she found herself in your hands. My horses happy ending was being pts. Heart breaking, gut wrenching at the time, but now just relief.

 

[Caramac71]

I would also recommend an opinion from Tom Beech.

To try and cut a very long story short, my daughters mare was diagnosed with facet joint arthritis in her thoracic/lumber area and supraspinous ligament strain at the age of 6, following a bone scan as nothing conclusive had come up on other tests. Vet had been convinced she had si disease by the way she presented.

She had Tilden and shockwave, and a long rehab, but continued to struggle in canter. Vets wrote her off as a happy hack at best (unfortunately not an option as she wasn’t a safe hack!).

For the next few years we tried everything - McTimoney, physio, chirovet, Chinese medicineacupuncture, gait analysis, even reiki and horse communicators! Everyone who saw her noted right hind lameness and also felt the symptoms she showed were not typical for the diagnosis she’d been given - ie the osteoarthritis was likely the result of an issue we’d not detected.

Eventually I contacted Tom and asked if he would come and give his opinion as to whether she was fixable or if we should give up and retire her. He saw her, treated her and said the next visit would be the decider depending on how she had responded to his treatment. He was pleased with her progress and we continued.

He found her to have tension in her right ovary and hind gut issues, causing the right hind lameness and back issues.

3 years later and she’s doing great. She far surpassed any expectations we had. She requires careful management with diet and supplements, we have had a few relapses along the way (usually caused by changes in the gut - grass, stress, worming, etc) but we are learning how to work through these.

We still have 6 monthly check ups with Tom, to ensure we keep on top of things as her workload increases rather than wait til issues present themselves.

I am always a bit scared to share our story for fear of tempting fate, but finally my daughter has the horse we thought we’d bought. She’s started competing BD, she loves to jump, she’s done some xc schooling and she even hacks now. She’s a much happier horse and clearly more comfortable.

Good luck with your horse however you decide to proceed. If I could turn back the clock, I would have gone to Tom much sooner and not spent my insurance money on diagnostics, Tilden and shockwave, as they were only ever going to treat the symptoms and not the cause.

 

[maisie06]

If your happy for her to be retired try turning away for a year or two, time is a good healer and sometimes I feel we put too much into traeting every single thing that crops up because we are in a rush for a sound horse. If you can find somewhere she could live out 24/7 365 you may just be surprised.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If your happy for her to be retired try turning away for a year or two, time is a good healer and sometimes I feel we put too much into traeting every single thing that crops up because we are in a rush for a sound horse. If you can find somewhere she could live out 24/7 365 you may just be surprised.

Sorry, but turning away such a multiply wonky horse without first addressing the compensatory issues will not give a good end result. This is not a simple single cause issue that just needs time and dr green to heal it.

It's nothing to do with being a rush, there is still a long road ahead for the OP and her mare, but if the horse is not set up to give her every chance to succeed, she won't.

 

[sbloom]

Sorry, but turning away such a multiply wonky horse without first addressing the compensatory issues will not give a good end result. This is not a simple single cause issue that just needs time and dr green to heal it.

It's nothing to do with being a rush, there is still a long road ahead for the OP and her mare, but if the horse is not set up to give her every chance to succeed, she won't.

Having just seen a horse that's been turned away for 3 months having been successfully treated for lammi, and he still had postural issues that hadn't been picked up in the first place....I wholeheartedly agree that in many cases turning away doesn't fix these kinds of things.

Then the other end of things is exercising and building strength - if this is done from the wrong starting point...I saw a very crooked rider a couple of weeks ago who did lots of gym work and some pilates but was unbelievable crooked, the strength work simply compounded it. And did you know that advanced riders tend to be more crooked than novice riders...again the asymmetry gets locked in...and The Horse's Back Blog has some evidence that more advanced horses tend to have the most asymmetric pelvises.

We're turning so much of what we thought on its head.

 

[hock]

There will always be the story of the horse that was turned away being fixed. We had one that wouldn’t heal had grafts etc and it was decided it was the end of the road so he was turned out for a few days, dressing off and the he was booked into be pts. Within 48 hours he was a different horse and the wound was visibly smaller.
Horses aren’t really designed to be sick long term are they though?

I think until you know if you’re treating a symptom or the cause you keep searching. Or you call it a day.

 

[Birker2020]

hi all

so after my last post, my mare went to the vets today (where she still is now). assessment confirmed she is unlevel/uncomfortable on her right hind (which was swollen) and through her back aswell. i've just spoke to the vet, who advised they nerveblocked my mare's pelvis and then her right hind which helped alleviate the symptoms, however her front end then looked worse (she is recovering from a suspensory ligament injury on front left which i'd say its almost healed now, so not out of the ordinary for her to look a bit off)

tomorrow she is being x-rayed on her sacroiliac region and hocks and treating both with steroids depending on what is found

shockwave treatment has also been put forward for her back which i'm happy to consider (mare has been having regular physio since I've owned her) although I don't know anything about shockwave for horses.

another option is ethanol treatment for her hocks which i have said no to for the time being as i'm not sure if my insurance will cover /all/ of this. also, i don't know enough about ethanol treatment to make a decision- i've heard a few things but not enough to be educated

tildren was also suggested which would be given intravenously, i've googled this and one dose is about £800 - not sure how helpful this treatment is?

since I bought my mare almost a year ago (she is now nearly 10) she has been near enough constantly lame, moves strangely and seems to have endless issues. vet described her as complicated!!

its all so much to consider, if I want to make any changes to her treatment plan I need to phone back tomorrow- so researching everything tonight (and relying on H&H of course).

I have told the vet I am not bothered if my mare can't have a ridden career now after all of this (I'm massively disillusioned by it all) and that I'd rather she was made comfortable enough to be retired in a field

I've poured so much money into her already and have grown attached, I just want to make sure that I'm doing the right thing?

does anyone have any advice or has anyone been through something similar?

Sorry for the confusing/rambly post, I'm massively stressed!

Xx

sorry not had time to read all replies. My perspective - joint injections didn't work for long for mine. She had three lots of Tildren treatment in a year and none seemed to work. We then plumped for chemical arthodesis which is ethanol fusion and it worked brilliantly, horse carried on jumping for many years after.

However in conversation with my physio and vet, they have both said that they consider that there are now better things on the market, Arthmed is meant to be really good, so is Osphos.

Also remedial farriery, and a good joint supplement, keep weight down and turnout as much as possible.

 

[milliepops]

I would also recommend an opinion from Tom Beech.

To try and cut a very long story short, my daughters mare was diagnosed with facet joint arthritis in her thoracic/lumber area and supraspinous ligament strain at the age of 6, following a bone scan as nothing conclusive had come up on other tests. Vet had been convinced she had si disease by the way she presented.

She had Tilden and shockwave, and a long rehab, but continued to struggle in canter. Vets wrote her off as a happy hack at best (unfortunately not an option as she wasn’t a safe hack!).

For the next few years we tried everything - McTimoney, physio, chirovet, Chinese medicineacupuncture, gait analysis, even reiki and horse communicators! Everyone who saw her noted right hind lameness and also felt the symptoms she showed were not typical for the diagnosis she’d been given - ie the osteoarthritis was likely the result of an issue we’d not detected.

Eventually I contacted Tom and asked if he would come and give his opinion as to whether she was fixable or if we should give up and retire her. He saw her, treated her and said the next visit would be the decider depending on how she had responded to his treatment. He was pleased with her progress and we continued.

He found her to have tension in her right ovary and hind gut issues, causing the right hind lameness and back issues.

3 years later and she’s doing great. She far surpassed any expectations we had. She requires careful management with diet and supplements, we have had a few relapses along the way (usually caused by changes in the gut - grass, stress, worming, etc) but we are learning how to work through these.

We still have 6 monthly check ups with Tom, to ensure we keep on top of things as her workload increases rather than wait til issues present themselves.

I am always a bit scared to share our story for fear of tempting fate, but finally my daughter has the horse we thought we’d bought. She’s started competing BD, she loves to jump, she’s done some xc schooling and she even hacks now. She’s a much happier horse and clearly more comfortable.

Good luck with your horse however you decide to proceed. If I could turn back the clock, I would have gone to Tom much sooner and not spent my insurance money on diagnostics, Tilden and shockwave, as they were only ever going to treat the symptoms and not the cause.

just wanted to mention, i remember your threads about this horse at the time you were trying to get a diagnosis. it sounded like such a difficult time. I'm so please your mare is doing well.

 

[throwawayaccount]

thank you everyone for all of your replies, and sorry for going AWOL; i spent the weekend essentially stress shopping at the tack shop!! got some much needed bits and bobs.

i have contacted tom beech today, no reply so i've sent a follow up text - fingers crossed. my mare is happy after being transitioned to the summer field with turnout being increased each day (being careful as the grass is rich). physio is booked for 27th. then she's going back to the vets on the 29th so not too long away, where she'll have her suspensory ligament scan just to finalise where it's at, along with further shockwave treatment. also going for the ethanol and tildren treatment too.

i won't be turning her away at this stage, as i want to have given it my best shot and have thrown literally everything at her that i can. i have given it all some thought, she deserves to have the right thing done by her and i really love her to pieces. if she won't come right, then fair enough- i'm happy to pay for her to be a field ornament if she's comfortable enough to be one. and if not, then we'll come to that.

 

[splashgirl45]

dont have anything helpful to say but wanted to applaud your dedication to your horse especially as you havent had her long and she has been unsound for so much of the time. good luck with her and give yourself a pat on the backxxx

 

[Dexter]

I'd also be testing for PSSM. Type 1 is so common in TBs sadly and SELs post just shows what a multitude of problems it can cause.

 

[throwawayaccount]

dont have anything helpful to say but wanted to applaud your dedication to your horse especially as you havent had her long and she has been unsound for so much of the time. good luck with her and give yourself a pat on the backxxx

that means a lot, thank you so much!! xx

dexter: ah i meant to google about PSSM. i'll do so now. is that usually found via blood tests? X

 

[Birker2020]

thank you everyone for all of your replies, and sorry for going AWOL; i spent the weekend essentially stress shopping at the tack shop!! got some much needed bits and bobs.

i have contacted tom beech today, no reply so i've sent a follow up text - fingers crossed. my mare is happy after being transitioned to the summer field with turnout being increased each day (being careful as the grass is rich). physio is booked for 27th. then she's going back to the vets on the 29th so not too long away, where she'll have her suspensory ligament scan just to finalise where it's at, along with further shockwave treatment. also going for the ethanol and tildren treatment too.

i won't be turning her away at this stage, as i want to have given it my best shot and have thrown literally everything at her that i can. i have given it all some thought, she deserves to have the right thing done by her and i really love her to pieces. if she won't come right, then fair enough- i'm happy to pay for her to be a field ornament if she's comfortable enough to be one. and if not, then we'll come to that.

https://www.horseandrideruk.com/expert-advice/articles/give-it-a-shot/ this explains in an easy to understand (rather than long winded medical explanations) how chemical arthrodesis works.
It cost about £300 for both hocks way back in 2014 I think it was.

 

[throwawayaccount]

https://www.horseandrideruk.com/expert-advice/articles/give-it-a-shot/ this explains in an easy to understand (rather than long winded medical explanations) how chemical arthrodesis works.
It cost about £300 for both hocks way back in 2014 I think it was.

thank you!

tom replied, hopefully now in the process of setting up an appointment! x

 

[Birker2020]

thank you!

tom replied, hopefully now in the process of setting up an appointment! x

Just a quick note, based on the experience of my horse, and my physio telling me about many horses that she has treated with physio that have had this procedure, it can actually take up to 18 months to fuse the joint. Natural fusion is very hit and miss and some horses joints never fuse, which is why turning them away and not riding for a prolonged period to allow fusion 'naturally' isn't always suitable for most owners.

 

[throwawayaccount]

Just a quick note, based on the experience of my horse, and my physio telling me about many horses that she has treated with physio that have had this procedure, it can actually take up to 18 months to fuse the joint. Natural fusion is very hit and miss and some horses joints never fuse, which is why turning them away and not riding for a prolonged period to allow fusion 'naturally' isn't always suitable for most owners.

thank you, I never knew that!! X

 

[throwawayaccount]

update:
been trying to get hold of tom beech, spoke with him over text and then had a missed call from him while I was working- tried to chase back up but not heard anything since. so I'll chase again as I imagine he's busy

my mare is feeling very well in herself - she's on one bute a day. coupled with the new field and more turnout she is like a different horse- a lot happier, and certainly showing it as she gallops round the field. when she does this, she looks so well. its also terrifying as you watch £1000s of vetbill gallop freely...

its all sort of kicked in a bit more now, the realisation of having a broken pony. I think because its been constant I've just dealt with it, but now I have time to think about it all I'm really sad!! haha. I am looking for another horse to buy but the market is crazy so I am not going to rush into anything.

 

[throwawayaccount]

update 2:
tom beech has said to contact him once the vets plan has been implemented without cause for concern,

physio came on tuesday, she said my mare was improving- which is great!

yesterday was vet clinic day- my mare was there a few hours. my vet was so pleased with how my mare was moving- probably the soundest we have seen her in almost a year!! vet rescanned ligament and was pleased with the progress and believes it will continue to improve, although its something we will always have to be cautious about.

treatment wise, we went ahead with the tildren intravenously, further shockwave treatment and also ethanol for the hocks. revisit for tildren in 6 weeks.

boxrest for today and tomorrow, sunday onwards my mare can be introduced to a sick paddock (equipped with relaquin to try and cancel out any outbursts!). she can also be reintroduced to either ridden/inhand/longreining - either or, but riding does need to be implemented soon.

i'm a bit wary about riding to say the least, for numerous reasons- not only the mounting block fiasco we have, but general uncertainty i suppose.. worried about getting my hopes up, and potentially causing any injuries/making things worse. (joys of being an overthinker)

 

[hock]

Really positive news, gives me the fuzzy wuzzies for you and your mare!

 

[throwawayaccount]

Small update...

The walking is going well, and we are once again conquering the mounting block!!

 

[Flicker]

She’s very bonny - fingers crossed she continues to make a good recovery