WWYD - veterinary nurse self diagnosing and giving drugs

Thank you for all your replies. I wasn't able to get any photos due to the owner being present. His leg has gone down in size but it still concerns me. I've not been able to say more than hire to the owner, because as soon as she opens her mouth I would assist her teeth in meeting her stomach!
I've not contacted her practise as currently I have no evidence.
Due to my location if I really kick off about this, my horse would find himself without a home.
She won't be down early in the morning so I will take some pictures and then call her work.
To add more insult to the poor horse she will traveling him on Sunday for more than 4 hours.
I've never witnessed such a lack of care by a so called professional!
 
I would be very careful here. You are quite rightly concerned but reporting the vet seems unfair. You do not know if this individual HAS actually spoken to the vet and not just helped her self or if the vet has not been made fully aware of the situation or told he drugs are for a small animal etc.

The livery is certainly acting unprofessionally and not appropriately in her duty of care to the animal. However, it would be far more appropriate to speak to the person about your concerns first. These allegations could potentially lose someone their job or have them suspended whilst things are looked into. It's really hard when someone makes you feel so angry but just make sure you are crystal clear on the facts and at least give her a chance to explain/justify herself.
 
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Just devils advocate- if the horse is on bute and oral antibiotics and cost is an issue would the vet visit mean a different treatment? You say yourself the leg has gone down so is improving? Any wound may look manky after a few days?
IF you were truely concerned, a phone call to a welfare body would have been the first call - some novice owners are hypochondriacs when it comes to wounds . make sure this is not the case! why not show it to us on here before making someones private like the talk of their work and enough people on here can advise if it's actually as bad as you think?
 
Elliesmemory1 said:
It is illegal for a vet to treat and prescribe drugs to a horse unless that vet has seen the animal in the last six months.
Report it before it too late for the poor horse.
Idiot owner.
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wench said:
Not sure on the six months things... Vets will precribe medication for cattle without seeing the individual animal for longer than a six month period
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The law is that the animal must be under the vet's care. For individual animals this does generally in practice mean that the vet should have seen the animal in the preceding 6 months, but the exact time period isn't actually specified. In a farm/herd situation the vet doesn't need to have seen every individual animal, but does need to be on the farm often enough that the herd is considered to be under their care.
 
Elliesmemory1 said:
It is illegal for a vet to treat and prescribe drugs to a horse unless that vet has seen the animal in the last six months.
Report it before it too late for the poor horse.
Idiot owner.
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wench said:
Not sure on the six months things... Vets will precribe medication for cattle without seeing the individual animal for longer than a six month period
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webble said:
Yes this is true
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It's not exactly true - see my post above.
 
Elliesmemory1 said:
It is illegal for a vet to treat and prescribe drugs to a horse unless that vet has seen the animal in the last six months.
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No it is not, it is RVC guidelines that an animal on repeat meds is seen by a vet every 3-6 months depending on the condition and the stability of the animals health, it is not law and is for the vet to decide how often and what context the above is taken.
 
This vet is unlikely to be insured to treat horses. I used to have a fabulous equine vet who wrote to tell me that he had stopped treating horses as he was no longer insured to do so but would continue to treat small animals. About six months later he retired and sold the practice, I have always assumed that he did not renew his equine insurance because he knew that he intended to retire.
If the RCVS were to investigate and find that the vet had done nothing wrong, there would be no problem. It rather sounds as if an investigation might find that the vet nurse is not telling the truth to some-one here.
 
So a vet can prescribe for a animal he's never even seen and can give treatment to animals not seen or checked for years?
Don't think so, sorry.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
If the RCVS were to investigate and find that the vet had done nothing wrong, there would be no problem. It rather sounds as if an investigation might find that the vet nurse is not telling the truth to some-one here.
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I know this is probably theoretical advice but to put a professional though an investigation or complaint when the full facts aren't known is really unfair. It's incredibly stressful, can affect your performance at work and creates a lot of extra paperwork. it is not absolutely clear what this livery have been up to or what the vet has been told. Sorry to be so defensive but I really hope this is going to be thought through. It is also not completely clear what the extent of he injury is and we all
Do have different thresholds for intervention (rightly or wrongly). I think if the OP can hand on heart feel that any complaint/report is 100% out of concern for the horse (I sense a dislike for this other livery) then fine but please think about the potential implications.
 
chazza44 said:
I know this is probably theoretical advice but to put a professional though an investigation or complaint when the full facts aren't known is really unfair. It's incredibly stressful, can affect your performance at work and creates a lot of extra paperwork. it is not absolutely clear what this livery have been up to or what the vet has been told. Sorry to be so defensive but I really hope this is going to be thought through. It is also not completely clear what the extent of he injury is and we all
Do have different thresholds for intervention (rightly or wrongly). I think if the OP can hand on heart feel that any complaint/report is 100% out of concern for the horse (I sense a dislike for this other livery) then fine but please think about the potential implications.
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This is why I advised contacting a welfare agency. Keeping the RCVS out of it allows for the livery to be told she has done wrong, if indeed she has (which I see no reason to doubt but this is all on word) and there need be no implications that could put the livery out of work, or affect more people.
 
If the vet she consulted was a vet within her practice who only treats small animals then I would suggest the vet concerned is outside their area of expertise and should not be providing any diagnosis, treatment or medication for a horse. The vet should recommend that she asks an equine vet to look at her horse. If you are concerned about the welfare of the horse then contact WHW or the BHS.
 
It's an extremely delicate situation. I don't want to go straight to her boss and create a scene when I have no certain facts/evidence.Plus the fall out could mean I lose my space at the yard.
The livery in question will only tell a story that paints her in the best light. Plus I don't want to have my name brought into her bad practises.
I don't think it is money that has stopped her calling the vet (her dad will cover the full cost) but pride.
The real reason for my post was for a bit of support so I can ensure the horse is as comfortable as possible and also to vent about the situation. Seeing your thoughts written down can be useful to process everything.
Tomorrow's action plan will be to have a calm chat with her and see if she has at least spoken to an equine vet, if her vet is happy with him and YO is happy then unfortunately there isn't much more I can do.
It's just frustrating that as she had access to drugs she can by pass the system and self treat practically.
 
"unfortunately there isn't much more I can do"... Yes there is , you could report to a welfare organization anonymously. Unless you are the only two liveries on your yard and nobody else from off the yard ever sees the horses, there's no way anyone can be sure it was you. I'm disgusted by your attitude to this situation. I can't believe you have the nerve to ask for support for yourself, when you're allowing this horse to continue suffering unnecessarily. If you'd wanted to write your thoughts down for clarity and not get others opinions you could have used pen and paper, or typed a word document.
 
It seems like there's a lot of speculation and not very many facts with this. Personally I would be absolutely livid if I found another livery was interfering with my horse's injury and taking pictures/sharing them on a public forum. There is nothing to say the owner didn't initially take pics and send to her equine vet only to be told to bute and give ABs and given that the leg seems to be improving it sounds like she's taking the right course of action.

Perhaps the YO has "washed her hands of it" as she sees the injury is being managed correctly and isn't concerned.

Of course on the other side of the fence the owner could completely be abusing her position as vet nurse to wrongly self-medicate but without solid proof I definitely wouldn't be reporting her or contacting her place of work.
 
nuttychestnut said:
A current situation down the yard has really annoyed me but I'm not sure what to do.
A little back ground to the story. The livery I am speaking about is a small animal nurse at a small animal practise.
Sunday morning she brought her horse in with a kick to the hock, some heat and swelling but hacked it out anyway. She got off part way around to led it. She hosed the leg after and threw the horse in his field.
Monday the leg was swollen and hot, she has asked her practice manager to prescribe painkillers and Antibiotics stating this is all her equine vet had said to do.
I checked the leg this morning (Tuesday) hock is now at least 3 times it's normal size with swelling cover most of his leg. I asked her to call the vet but she stated she had spoken to them over the phone and his leg was fine.
I rechecked him tonight, the whole leg feels really hot, the hock is 3-4 times it's normal size and the cut has yellow pus coming out. The cuts edges look crusty and in flamed. Called her again to get the vet out, she states her boss (small animal and hasn't physically seen the horse's leg) prescribed the pain killer and antibiotics again.
I'm also worried that the situation she had told her boss, is not reflective of the horses current state.
WWYD???
Does this horses leg sound normal? I'm worried an infection has now got into the joint and bone, what do you think?
Am I just being a interfering livery?
Is her boss in the wrong for giving drugs to an animal he hasn't seen?
Chips and curry sauce if you got this far!
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How is the horse now? Can't get him off my mind . . . my own lad suffered a similar injury a couple of years or so ago - we ended up taking him horsepital (same day as injury) where he had the joint flushed under GA and spent a week recovering - vet told me that the white cell count (in the joint) was so high that if we had left it much longer, Kal would have died because the infection would have been systemic.

Very concerned about this horse - please update.

P
 
My rule of thumb with liveries is this... If it isn't your horse, it isn't your business. It's between the horse's owner and the yard owner, it's nothing to do with you. This reads, to me, very much like you're more interested in "getting" the owner than the welfare of the animal. You have no factual information yet you're suggesting involving professional bodies and welfare organisations! I'd suggest that's the quickest way possible to get yourself branded a troublemaker and get booted off your yard. If you genuinely feel that you need to make reports of malpractice against a veterinary nurse, two vets and your yard owner then have the courage of your convictions. Before you do though have a quick look at that hock and ask yourself if it's really worth it.
 
I can't get facts from the owner because her story changes depending who she speaks too. The only facts I have is the horse has hurt his hock (kick or other), the horse hasn't been seen by a vet & the owner has just left him out in the field & he is being given oral ABS and PK.
Things I cannot confirm are who gave her the drugs (I know they are from work but the story changes, if the injury is just superficial or serious, if her management of it is correct.
The yard is extremely small just yes the finger of blame would be pointed at me.
But I do think most of have confirmed I am just being an interfering livery.
 
Was trying to reply but black and white said it all. If its not serious enough to call in welfare then its none of your business. Other people are annoying sometimes you have to stand back and not get involved.
 
nuttychestnut said:
I can't get facts from the owner because her story changes depending who she speaks too. The only facts I have is the horse has hurt his hock (kick or other), the horse hasn't been seen by a vet & the owner has just left him out in the field & he is being given oral ABS and PK.
Things I cannot confirm are who gave her the drugs (I know they are from work but the story changes, if the injury is just superficial or serious, if her management of it is correct.
The yard is extremely small just yes the finger of blame would be pointed at me.
But I do think most of have confirmed I am just being an interfering livery.
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TBH for your own sanity and future I would keep out of it. Yes it is sad and the woman is a pillock but you have said what you think, I would now back off and walk away. Sometimes, with encouragement from on here you can feel a bit crusaderish but no one on the forum will actually stand up and take the flack for you.
 
nuttychestnut said:
I can't get facts from the owner because her story changes depending who she speaks too. The only facts I have is the horse has hurt his hock (kick or other), the horse hasn't been seen by a vet & the owner has just left him out in the field & he is being given oral ABS and PK.
Things I cannot confirm are who gave her the drugs (I know they are from work but the story changes, if the injury is just superficial or serious, if her management of it is correct.
The yard is extremely small just yes the finger of blame would be pointed at me.
But I do think most of have confirmed I am just being an interfering livery.
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personally unless there is a chance of being left out causing a problem then I would leave out too, it can in many cases help reduce swelling and increase drainage from a would, the fact that you don't know if the wound is superficial or serious and you appear to be the only one concerned indicates to me you should stay out of it. if the hock was infected the horse would by now be unable to use it, joint infection progress fast. TBH any vet would give pain killers and antibiotics as a starting point unless they felt xrays were needed from the start.
 
Sorry but I have skipped the replies here. This person needs reporting as it is ILLEGAL for anyone except a qualified vet to prescribe drugs for any animal (if they are prescription only. Here is a guide to categorieshttp://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Compendium/Overview/-42802.html
 
I think you should take a step back and see how it progresses.
You have said you don't know the extent if the injury so how do you know the owner is not treating it correctly?
Being out in the field is better for reducing swelling and draining fluid.
Cut often look worse before they get better, horse is on antibiotics and painkillers so it should clear if it.

Obviously if it gets worse then it needs more attention bit owner should be dealing with it or step in with advice/concerns then without being an interfering busy body!

You don't know where drugs can't from of if prescribed iligalky it not, but to be honest the vet is only tryin to help and animal.
 
GG2B said:
It seems like there's a lot of speculation and not very many facts with this. Personally I would be absolutely livid if I found another livery was interfering with my horse's injury and taking pictures/sharing them on a public forum. There is nothing to say the owner didn't initially take pics and send to her equine vet only to be told to bute and give ABs and given that the leg seems to be improving it sounds like she's taking the right course of action.

Perhaps the YO has "washed her hands of it" as she sees the injury is being managed correctly and isn't concerned.

Of course on the other side of the fence the owner could completely be abusing her position as vet nurse to wrongly self-medicate but without solid proof I definitely wouldn't be reporting her or contacting her place of work.
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No-one seems to have raised the issue that if the woman is medicating her horse with drugs she has taken without the permission of the vet she works for she is guilty of theft which could at the very least get her sacked and at worst could find her in the dock. Theft is bad enough but theft of drugs whether for a horse or for sale is taken very seriously by the boys in blue.
 
Ellen Durow said:
No-one seems to have raised the issue that if the woman is medicating her horse with drugs she has taken without the permission of the vet she works for she is guilty of theft which could at the very least get her sacked and at worst could find her in the dock. Theft is bad enough but theft of drugs whether for a horse or for sale is taken very seriously by the boys in blue.
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Unless I've missed something there is no evidence to suggest this is the case, however the OP does seem to be making some rather serious allegations against the owner without much basis.

Obviously it's hard to say for certain one way or another without knowing the parties involved, but it does sound like OP is the only one on the yard concerned/questioning the owner.
 
Sorry I've not replied, but I have had to take a step back.
I don't think she would just steal the drugs, but surely the prescribing vet should have seen the horse 1st.
I have just to understand that myself & the owner have a difference of a opinion of when to call the vet. I have raised my concerns to her directly.
 
nuttychestnut said:
Sorry I've not replied, but I have had to take a step back.
I don't think she would just steal the drugs, but surely the prescribing vet should have seen the horse 1st.
I have just to understand that myself & the owner have a difference of a opinion of when to call the vet. I have raised my concerns to her directly.
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Well done, that you have been concerned for the welfare of the horse, and have raised the concerns with the person directly.

IMO it is difficult to bring private matters to HHO for advice, as you risk people deducing who you are and who you are talking about. For example, I have not looked, but you have 250 posts more or less, and it may be that you are identifiable from them.

If it were me and I had asked the vet, and I found I were being discussed on HHO I would be quite angry if you had not raised the matter with me. Especially as the way the thread has gone it started to question my honesty, my vets professionalism etc.

I think that your correct course would have been to raise with owner, raise with YO, and raise with Welfare society if you believe the horse is in danger.

You have now done 2 of the three courses of action.

If you are still not satisfied, and the leg does not improve or you believe the horse is still in danger then the third would be the next course.

It can be difficult sometimes to decide where a horse is actually in danger and when it is just a difference of opinion. I hope the owner answered your queries, and the horse is safe and getting better.
 
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