Wwyd with pony not “getting it”?

[splashgirl45]

A good hacking horse is worth a great deal so I don’t think ending the loan would be a good idea… it might be worth getting a cushings test done as well as you say she isn’t muscling up on her hindquarters and her back looks a little dipped to me . My mares back did the same and I could never get her top line muscled up even with the right work, she was diagnosed when she was 20 but I’m pretty sure she had it much earlier but I didn’t realise

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

Assuming that she holds canter fine on straight lines, I would be thinking of a performance workup looking at front feet, hocks, hind suspensories and just possibly C6/C7 asymmetry in the neck.

She sounds too nice to send back.
.

i was thinking hind suspensories too. She might not be muscling up becuase she's not able to push through from behind properly.I would recommend a performance workup just to rule anything like that out.

 

[Blueysmum]

Where do I get a performance work up? The vets? Sorry rbis is all new to me

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Where do I get a performance work up? The vets? Sorry rbis is all new to me

Yes, find a good local equine vets and ask for a work up. Explain the issues.

 

[Blueysmum]

thank you! Will ring out vets tomorrow x

 

[Boulty]

Would definitely get the vet out and ask about a general poor performance work up to see if there is anything obvious going on with hocks / SI kind of area and maybe have a chat about PSSM as well.

It could of course just be that it is very very hard for a teenager & a 7 yr old to educate, improve & bring on a horse who knew nothing when you took her on & they may lack the skills to help her understand how to carry herself and keep going in canter in the school. Does she canter any better following another horse out hacking? Whether she struggles with this as well could help guide where to start with vet investigations as struggling to canter in general is a slightly different issue to struggling to canter around corners/ in a smaller space. It’s also interesting that when the instructor rides they’re also struggling to maintain it as if they weren’t having this issue I’d suggest maybe rider working too hard / out of balance.

I’m finding it a very slow and bumpy process teaching my 7 year old (who has been backed a similar length of time to this mare) to pick up without fuss & then maintain canter.

Buuuut there are reasons for some of it with him (with a few “me” issues thrown in). He went through a period of having some slightly random intertwined back & gut issues whilst he was still unbacked that kinda needed bringing under control before starting to back him. He’s still a bit bum high and naturally a bit weak in his lumbar area and has a couple of lumbar vertebrae that have a tendency to get a bit locked up. We are going down the route of really focusing on getting him to carry himself properly (WITHOUT forcing him into a frame) alongside regular physio & osteo but have had the discussion with the vet that he may eventually need that area medicating if we get stuck in a rut / if things progress (or that if I’m super lucky the issue may eventually resolve the stronger & more established he gets). Realistically conformationally it’s always going to be the pace he finds most difficult & unfortunately his initial response to things that are difficult is to try & avoid them. He’s also got sidebone in his front feet which affects his landing in front/ makes working him on hard rutted or deep surfaces a bad idea. He also for quite a long time was anxious in open spaces. I’ve also had to learn a bit of breathing control to avoid collapsing in an asthmatic heap when he’s making me work harder than himself.

We have started to have some small wins as he’s finally started to get the idea about cantering out hacking without just locking up, slamming the brakes on & saying “can’t”, also think I’ve been babying him a bit too much in school by avoiding corners etc as had a lesson with a slightly different focus using polework to get his trot more forwards & suddenly we could canter around corners (a full circuit of the arena is still beyond him). This is something we’ve spent the last 9 months working on and it’s probably going to be a work in progress for quite some time.

Not all of these will apply to your mare of course, just using the hairy thing as an example of a horse who has naturally found it a really hard thing to master with a rider for various reasons (going to admit that, once he was genuinely strong enough to be asked for this a pro would probably have got there a heck of a lot quicker but we’ve been focusing on quite a lot of other things alongside as well & despite best efforts I do get in the way / confuse things sometimes)

 

[sbloom]

I'm seeing some probably angle issues - hoof pastern axis, pelvis...posture type stuff. Saddle needs to be further back, make sure the front edge of the tree points are 3-5cm behind the back edge of the should blade, and that back edge must be felt firmly from the main part of the scapula - press firmly and move the fingers backwards until they properly fall off the should blade.

A good performance workup is never a bad idea but I'd be also be planning on using groundwork for posture and balance, saddle placement (possibly fit too, have you had it checked since the fitting?) and her understanding of what you want of her

So often instructors can make horses compensate for the tissues, doesn't mean the issues aren't there.

 

[Frano]

Perhaps she would be best kept as a happy hacker. Some horses do not enjoy schooling ,jumping etc. Possibly should look at getting a horse who will enjoy working in the school, jumping competing etc.

 

[Blueysmum]

So I need a vet for a low performance check up, and do I look for a back person? Shall I ring the saddler again too?

 

[Trouper]

Honestly, you could get all those things done in a session with Tom Beech (The Osteopathic Vet) who has more than once found things for me that performance work-ups have missed. Can't recommend him highly enough.

However, I do agree with @sbloom about groundwork too. If she is very flexible it may be that what she needs is strengthening to enable to hold herself together more. Polework would be great if you can take it gently to start with until she learns where to put her feet.

 

[Goldenstar]

You need a problems with performance type work up .
You need to write a list of the things that bother you so you give the vet a good understanding of what’s worrying you.
you need a vet that does this type of work it’s a specialty a equine practice will have vets who do the work ups .
I don’t this will be a difficult work up on this horse I think there will be issues that are common and easy to find .
Worse in school suggests a soft tissue issue and I would want the hocks ultrasound scanned .
You may well have more than one issue .
But start simple with trot ups flexions and lunging let the vet see the horse on the surface and or get videos of the stuff that bothers you .
you might start the work up at your yard and then perhaps move on to him in the practice or go straight to the practise and use videos .
I prefer to do simple flexions and trot ups lunging sometimes ridden at home then make a plan with vet as to what next steps are .
The saddle in the picture is incorrectly placed and rider has her stirrups to short and is not correctly sitting that’s just a one day but saddle may be one of the issues .
I would not get a back person atm I would keep the horse working until the vet sees it .

 

[Blueysmum]

She shakes her head a lot apparently the trainer has told me to add. We tried a different bit last night as she messes with her tongue a lot and the one we tried did make a difference x

 

[Birker2020]

Personally from what experience I gained from Lari was that his not going forwards in the arena and then exploding when he did was due to SI and KS issues.

Horses with SI problems find it hard to find the impulsion to propel themselves forwards. The horse in the photo has a visible jumpers bump. It's not that obvious because of her typical cob shape.

I've copied and pasted this as its easier to explain:

Injury to the sacroiliac joint region or where the ligaments in the joints ate torn or strained is frequently associated with muscle loss or muscle wastage over the rump and the increased prominence of the tuber sacrale which are also known as jumper's or hunter's bump, where long-term muscle loss makes these bony prominences more obvious.

I think the shaking of her head and messing with the bit are just signs of evasion and discomfort. You sound like great owners and she's lucky to have you bit I feel it's time for a proper work up at the vets.

 

[Blueysmum]

Personally from what experience I gained from Lari was that his not going forwards in the arena and then exploding when he did was due to SI and KS issues.

Horses with SI problems find it hard to find the impulsion to propel themselves forwards. The horse in the photo has a visible jumpers bump. It's not that obvious because of her typical cob shape.

I've copied and pasted this as its easier to explain:

Injury to the sacroiliac joint region or where the ligaments in the joints ate torn or strained is frequently associated with muscle loss or muscle wastage over the rump and the increased prominence of the tuber sacrale which are also known as jumper's or hunter's bump, where long-term muscle loss makes these bony prominences more obvious.

I think the shaking of her head and messing with the bit are just signs of evasion and discomfort. You sound like great owners and she's lucky to have you bit I feel it's time for a proper work up at the vets.

This is what I thought. Her bum was a hell of a lot worse though when we got her. She was 10 and had just stood in a field so had zero muscle tone

 

[Blueysmum]

Personally from what experience I gained from Lari was that his not going forwards in the arena and then exploding when he did was due to SI and KS issues.

Horses with SI problems find it hard to find the impulsion to propel themselves forwards. The horse in the photo has a visible jumpers bump. It's not that obvious because of her typical cob shape.

I've copied and pasted this as its easier to explain:

Injury to the sacroiliac joint region or where the ligaments in the joints ate torn or strained is frequently associated with muscle loss or muscle wastage over the rump and the increased prominence of the tuber sacrale which are also known as jumper's or hunter's bump, where long-term muscle loss makes these bony prominences more obvious.

I think the shaking of her head and messing with the bit are just signs of evasion and discomfort. You sound like great owners and she's lucky to have you bit I feel it's time for a proper work up at the vets.

Omg!! Iv just read about this and it looks like it! She hasn’t got very good feet and has had to have shoes at the front to lift her up abit.

Poor baby I feel so bad!

 

[Blueysmum]

Iv rang the vet today and they are ringing me back with a price

 

[SantaVera]

My cobs like this,kkicks poles on the ground knocks small jumps can't canter in the school, but is an excellent hack, so I just hack him, it's what he's good at.

 

[SpeedyPony]

Iv rang the vet today and they are ringing me back with a price

If she's not insured, mention this to the vets- this will help inform the tests they run. It's not necessarily a case of not doing everything they can, but more of prioritising their suspicions after seeing her.
It might also be worth asking your farrier about any unusual wear/growth that they've noticed- this is another thing you can pass on to the vet to fill in some of the picture and you may well need to involve the farrier down the line for supportive shoeing/trimming.

 

[dorsetladette]

Iv rang the vet today and they are ringing me back with a price

From reading through he thread I can imagine why you are panicking/worried - all those issues people have put forward but I'd suggest you look at this with an open mind and don't jump to any conclusions.

Speak to your vet when they arrive about all the issues your mare has been showing. List them so you don't forget anything. How long you have been noticing these issues, etc etc.

To start with a good look over with flexion tests etc might be enough to point you and the vet in the right direction.

 

[Glitter's fun]

There was a long thread about this pony last month & I think some of the information from that is relevant here if you don't mind me copying some over,

From your previous thread:
We have full loaned our gelding for coming up 18 months.
We have no contract.. iv signed nothing
He was extremely skinny and hadn’t been looked after very well when we met him.
He’s 13.
I have a lot of evidence of him being skin and bones, his hooves, where he was living etc, he had probably been sat on and rode around the field 5 times in his life,... It was clear he knew nothing
in the 18 months we’ve had him we hired a trainer (my 16 year old rides him), they have started cross country and are doing absolutely amazing.
we are very much working with a 5 year old physically if that makes sense. Trainer said it’s like a teenager going high school without going to primary.

I would never argue against getting a vet's opinion of a pony that isn't going well - definitely go ahead with that but I do wonder whether you are expecting him/her to progress too quickly. From a skin and bones field ornament with dreadful feet, to doing cross country in less than 18 months sounds ambitious to me.

ETA I'm no expert but in one of those pictures your daughter looks to be sitting too far forwards. If the vet doesn't find anything maybe get the saddle fitter back out. If he's carrying too much of her weight on his forelegs cantering will be difficult for him.

 

[Goldenstar]

She shakes her head a lot apparently the trainer has told me to add. We tried a different bit last night as she messes with her tongue a lot and the one we tried did make a difference x

Issues with the tongue can just be issues with the tongue but they can also be another indicator of issues in the back and hind end .
Shaking the head can just be shaking the head due training issues uncomfortable bridles stuff like that but it can also be a pain indicator .

 

[I'm Dun]

Before you do anything else, spend the £30ish and test for PSSM. You are describing my little mare before we found out. if its not that then great, go for the workup, but it might just save you a lot of time and money.

 

[Lucky Snowball]

Sorry if I’ve missed it but can she canter on a huge lunge circle? I had a weak horse bit like Boulty above. Vet found nothing wrong just weak. Cantered one or two strides on lunge... 4...half circle etc took two years but now happy to school normally in canter. It took a long time and dedication.

 

[maya2008]

Are you sure the saddle fits? Horses changing shape as they come into work and lose fat/gain muscle need saddle checks and adjustments much more often than the usual. I have had saddles only fit for a matter of weeks with youngsters.

 

[Quigleyandme]

The pony is black. Could she have a fair amount of Dales in her? My Dales could maintain canter for short bursts but much preferred to trot extremely fast and goodness he could cover some ground with his legs going like pistons. He would struggle to maintain canter in the school but I never really worked on this because it didn’t bother me. I’d enter him in the clear round at local shows for which he would maintain canter but it was a very fast canter.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Can you post pictures of the soles of her feet? If you are having hoof issues to the point of having to shoe, then that's a good place to start the healing. No foot- no horse!

 

[cobgoblin]

Have you tried cantering her in a grass school? Preferably a large one.

 

[PurBee]

Thanks all! Il read about PSSM!

The field she was in when we got her was full of ragwort etc so do worry she has some underlying issue maybe, will get her booked in tomorrow!

It’s not proper jumps, like raised trotting poles practically lol.


Same with her bum, it’s very flat and even though she’s fit and she’s never out of breath even though she’s worked hard it doesn’t seem to be toning up at all.

Dd rides her 4 times a week, either hacking or in the school on her own or with people at the yard, she has a lesson once a week and the trainer schools her once a week too. So she has usually one or two days off a week.

We’ve figured she prefers to be in the school alone and worries if another horse is in but out hacking loves company lol

If she was grazing a heavy infested ragwort field, there’s possibility of liver issues from ragwort poisoning, and worth getting a blood test for liver enzymes/function to see how the liver is performing. Ragwort toxicity has the potential to permanently kill-off liver cells and prevent re-growth, so liver function becomes compromised, depending on the level of damage, IF the horse consumed ragwort.

Liver issues present with vague symptoms, but lethargy/fatigue is the most common, and weight loss/hard to gain weight/muscle tone can be a factor too. The liver processes all carbs/proteins/fats, and glycogen for instant energy, so those functions become taxed when the liver is strained for whatever reason.
As you know she lived in a heavy infested field before you got her, i personally would want liver tests and alert vets about possible ragwort exposure, so they can assess if there is any damage.

Milk thistle is commonly used with good results to help the liver recover from toxicity. You can also get mixes of ‘liver tonic herbs’ from equine supplements suppliers.

If a field is loaded with ragwort, most horses avoid it as it tastes so bitter, and nibble grass around it, but there’s the chance of them eating the baby ragwort plant leaves as they start to grow - especially if the horse is left in such a field without additional hay.

I hope its just a training issue and the horse needs more time to get strong, but thought id mention the ragwort/liver link, as that has potential to undermine any work we want to do with a horse, if its undiagnosed and untreated. The liver is the work-horse of the body, so if its affected by anything, the general health and performance of the horse can be affected. A liver function blood test is fairly cheap, and useful to rule-out that as a source of issues.

 

[Palindrome]

I'd be a bit suspicious of the saddle, is it a Wintec? Do you have a picture without a rider to see how it fits? Is it lower at the back or does it sit level?
With her back shape, she needs a saddle for high withered horse.

I think a lot of work in hand/on the lunge over poles could help with muscling her back.

 

[HorseMaid]

Playing devil's advocate here, but, as this is a horse that's on loan, what happens if you go down the route of spending a lot of money on investigations and it throws up an issue that will limit what they are comfortable doing - as you don't own the horse, and the owner won't sell to you, where would that leave you if you're then not able to progress? Would you be happy just hacking?

I agree that further investigations are warranted but I'd be wary of paying out a fortune on a horse I didn't own unless it was covered by insurance!