Wwyd with pony not “getting it”?

[Blueysmum]

Playing devil's advocate here, but, as this is a horse that's on loan, what happens if you go down the route of spending a lot of money on investigations and it throws up an issue that will limit what they are comfortable doing - as you don't own the horse, and the owner won't sell to you, where would that leave you if you're then not able to progress? Would you be happy just hacking?

I agree that further investigations are warranted but I'd be wary of paying out a fortune on a horse I didn't own unless it was covered by insurance!

It’s already been planned out lol. She will be staying with us and she will become a happy hacker/plod for my 7yo dd and another girl who loves riding her at the yard. She loves being groomed and fussed and is such a good girl for my youngest too. We will then look for something for my oldest.

Vets are coming today! I’m so nervous.

Yesterday during her lesson they were doing 30cm poles and every single time she came round the corner and faced them her ears went back and she would stop dead and the jump.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

TBH this pony might just be a "happy hacker". Period. Mine is a happy hacker which is what I've trained her to be, she is 10yo now and has been in the school TWICE, just twice in her life. Ohh the shame!! She would ditto struggle to "hold a canter" in the school, mainly because she isn't used to school work and isn't flexible enough; and she always tends to choose one leg for her canter lead!

I suspect this pony is genuine enough and is doing their best, but lacks flexibility as hasn't done much school work. You are being cautious and having the vet, which is good - and depending on what they say it might be that the recommendation is for some physio treatment to help the situation.

This sounds a lovely pony and whilst it would be a shame to send it back; trying to be kind here but I do wonder whether you are expecting more than it is going to be capable of, especially for the future.

 

[Blueysmum]

Like I said we’ve already kind of agreed that she will just become my youngest happy plod about and we will look for something for oldest x

 

[Goldenstar]

Let’s us know how you get on .

 

[splashgirl45]

Good luck, hope vet visit turns out well

 

[Blueysmum]

So she thinks her back is fine, she’s not reactive when she’s feeling it, she said her bum looks normal and it fine. She isn’t showing any lameness when Taylor was walking and trotting her etc. She said she doesn’t think she’d anemic because her gums look healthy, her flexing is good but she just didn’t get what she was asking her for a while lol
She took her bloods, was going to test for Cushings but said there wasn’t any point because of her age and she doesn’t really have any other symptoms. She said wait until the bloods come back and then we can either get her teeth checked and have her sedated or start her on 10 days of bute and see if she picks up, then we can decide to have more checks done or it could all just be poor performance and we decide if we are going to keep pushing her and making her do more or just say she’s a happy plod about.

 

[splashgirl45]

That sounds positive and she is worth keeping for the safety for your youngest daughter and she has a good temperament for the girls to deal with her themselves.. bloods don’t show anything untoward and she can carry on doing her job with your family

 

[Blueysmum]

Bloods are back, completely normal!

So we are thinking mouth issues maybe? We are going to try 10 days of bute and see if it makes a difference.

positive point my youngest has started lessons on her once a week and she seems to really enjoy it! Just low level trotting and walking lol

 

[Exasperated]

Before you do anything else, spend the £30ish and test for PSSM. You are describing my little mare before we found out. if its not that then great, go for the workup, but it might just save you a lot of time and money.

And might just be PSSM 2 (aka M.I.M, several variants) which test is c.£250 hairs-test conducted in Germany, but will give you a definitive ruling in, or out, as to any genetic marker.
Full orthopaedic workouts, x rays, scans, scopes, bloods, biopsies, professional schooling, ad infinitum - prove very expensive, time consuming, and STILL cannot reveal a possible genetic issue.
Meanwhile, you and your horse are getting further and further down the line without meaningful support.
Voice of sad experience - get it genetically tested, you do not need a vet to pull hairs out, just enough tech-savvy to communicate with the laboratory. Will keep my fingers crossed for you and the horse.

 

[honetpot]

I think some ponies just hate the school, like what is the point? The one I bred was like this from three, when he was first backed, I could see the Kevin face. As I told the person breaking him I wanted him hacking and good in traffic, they did that. He has been loaned out for the last three years, to a hacking home and the only time he has been 'trouble' is when they have taken him in the school.
We never had a schooling area, so you do your training out hacking, with perhaps the odd bit of 'dressage' in a open field, leg yeld down the road. Some ponies are automatic nannies, they do not like the feel of someone off balance on their back, or the rider may be riding with the hand break on. Life for a pony can be utterly boring, our old pony was the typical first pony, did the bare minuim, until you took him hunting, and then he could keep up with the ones at the front. It was all a bit Thelwell.

 

[I'm Dun]

And might just be PSSM 2 (aka M.I.M, several variants) which test is c.£250 hairs-test conducted in Germany, but will give you a definitive ruling in, or out, as to any genetic marker.
Full orthopaedic workouts, x rays, scans, scopes, bloods, biopsies, professional schooling, ad infinitum - prove very expensive, time consuming, and STILL cannot reveal a possible genetic issue.
Meanwhile, you and your horse are getting further and further down the line without meaningful support.
Voice of sad experience - get it genetically tested, you do not need a vet to pull hairs out, just enough tech-savvy to communicate with the laboratory. Will keep my fingers crossed for you and the horse.

The pony isnt showing any signs of type 2 PSSM though, and as the test isnt reliable Im always hesitant to suggest it.

OP did you do the PSSM 1 test?

 

[maya2008]

I also wouldn’t spend £250 on a test that has been scientifically proven to not be reliable. To be fair I wouldn’t spend a tenner on that test - because there is just not sufficient correlation in independent studies between the genes and muscle biopsied PSSM2.

 

[Exasperated]

The pony isnt showing any signs of type 2 PSSM though, and as the test isnt reliable Im always hesitant to suggest it.

OP did you do the PSSM 1 test?

Yes, negative for PSSM 1 (as, I understand, all Sec D s thus far tested have also shown) which was unfortunate as Type 1 seems far easier to manage.
Horses can have both. The genetic test is reliable for the genetic markers tested. Subsequent human interpretation of the relevance may not be. The muscle biopsies are not genetic tests, and can't show CK etc. if the horse isn't 'cramping' at that particular time.

I really don't intend to re live all this, but it sounds like Liverpool vet school are finally researching variants Type 2, MIM, see: another comment on this forum from Leah3horses, last Friday 18.03, so maybe take it up with her?

If you want an RCVS flat denial, there is one published on the WPCS site (welfare, PSSM, Dr Richard Piercy, I think?), advising the genetic tests should not be used to make any performance, breeding(!?!), euthanasia decisions whatsoever.

 

[cobgoblin]

To me this sounds like a question of balance and inability to cope with the tight bends in an arena with an artificial surface, that probably feels like insecure footing.
You say she has only been ridden for two years, so riding wise she is still a baby.
When she works consistently from the rear and lightens up on the forehand I suspect the tripping will stop and she will have the control to do what you want.

 

[Goldenstar]

The idea of a bute trial is a good one at this stage while it can’t rule out pain related issues if you see improvement you can certainly be sure you have an undiagnosed issue .

What was done in terms of trot ups lunging etc during the work up ?

 

[tristar]

is the pony being ridden by anyone who can actually school a pony from scratch, if she is being ridden by children who are low level competency i cant see how she will progress

you say she bends almost double when standing still and will not move on when asked, the first thing is to get forward movement, there s a huge schooling deficit going on here, and other things

 

[I'm Dun]

Yes, negative for PSSM 1 (as, I understand, all Sec D s thus far tested have also shown) which was unfortunate as Type 1 seems far easier to manage.
Horses can have both. The genetic test is reliable for the genetic markers tested. Subsequent human interpretation of the relevance may not be. The muscle biopsies are not genetic tests, and can't show CK etc. if the horse isn't 'cramping' at that particular time.

I really don't intend to re live all this, but it sounds like Liverpool vet school are finally researching variants Type 2, MIM, see: another comment on this forum from Leah3horses, last Friday 18.03, so maybe take it up with her?

If you want an RCVS flat denial, there is one published on the WPCS site (welfare, PSSM, Dr Richard Piercy, I think?), advising the genetic tests should not be used to make any performance, breeding(!?!), euthanasia decisions whatsoever.

Theres been at least 1 section D with type 1. But the type 2 test is not reliable, is not peer reviewed and its nothing to do with subsequent human interpretation, its just not an accurate or reliable test. The RCVS are right at this point. Muscle biopsies also arent reliable for the reasons you state, but at least wont give a false positive as the genetic test does.

My question re type 1 testing was for the person who started this thread though

 

[Blueysmum]

So it seems pony over heard my daughter looking for another horse because the trainer rode her yesterday and she was absolutely perfect! Didn’t put a hoof wrong, daughter rode her today and she cantered around the school 5x!! She really worked hard for her today!

 

[Exasperated]

Theres been at least 1 section D with type 1. But the type 2 test is not reliable, is not peer reviewed and its nothing to do with subsequent human interpretation, its just not an accurate or reliable test. The RCVS are right at this point. Muscle biopsies also arent reliable for the reasons you state, but at least wont give a false positive as the genetic test does.

My question re type 1 testing was for the person who started this thread though

seem to recall the Covid test kits weren't peer reviewed either?

- irrelevant to original thread, so let's all hope the initial person doesn't have to cope with PSSM in any form, there are other causes of 'exertional myopathy'.

The genetic tests are accurate (unless a human has incorrectly collected or labelled a swatch of hairs), not necessarily predictive, because PSSM 2 remains a complex category of disorders with far more research required.

But when owners look to the veterinary profession, they don't expect, want or need to see the rear end of an ostrich.

It has not proved possible to disprove the relevance of genetics here, on the contrary, and scientific paradigm shifts occur when cumulative evidence suggests the original theory is no longer tenable. People once believed the earth was flat, and some still do.

PSSM / MIM typically manifests in adult animals; standard vetting, x rays, scans and bloods aren't designed to detect; thus ANY possible genetic component is a ticking time bomb, and ignored at peril.

Owners, breeders and vets have to get their heads out of that sandpit, and fast.

 

[I'm Dun]

the PSSM type 2 test is not accurate. Having copies of those genes does not correlate to symptoms shown, ie expression of the disease. End of. I'm surprised you dont know this, it has been openly published for quite some time now.

 

[Exasperated]

Yes, time and science both progress, surprising that's not better known, too.
Research does not take an entrenched position and claim "end of", because sadly and empirically it's not - unless referring to people's hopes and their animals' futures?
OK, polarised views happen on a forum, but this is not an 'ad hominem' debate.
Could cry when I see such, and I'm not the one with sand in his eyes. Will leave you in peace.

 

[canteron]

So it seems pony over heard my daughter looking for another horse because the trainer rode her yesterday and she was absolutely perfect! Didn’t put a hoof wrong, daughter rode her today and she cantered around the school 5x!! She really worked hard for her today!

Have just read through this thread and have nothing useful to add but to say I really like your approach - it seems to be about doing the best for both your children and the pony. I despair of many pony mums who see them as something to be used then (often quite heartlessly) passed on. Refreshing!

 

[Blueysmum]

She’s had a pamper today so I just wanted to show her off because I’m proud haha

 

[[153312]]

she's beautiful. no wonder you are proud

 

[Blueysmum]

Thank you

I feel like now we know medically she’s ok that we are trying to understand her abit more.

We’ve figured that when we ask her to do something that she has to think about she panics and shuts down and just completely refuses it, but once she’s figured out it’s ok she fine. She’s just used to shutting down when she finds something hard/confusing. She’s like a little 3 year old that’s so confused with the world

 

[ycbm]

She took her bloods, was going to test for Cushings but said there wasn’t any point because of her age and she doesn’t really have any other symptoms.

At 12 she is plenty old enough to have Cushings and plenty of horses have no symptoms at all but to find going barefoot a bit of a challenge.

A friend of mine forced the vet to test her 9 year old very much against the vet's will. It came back sky high, the vet was very embarrassed.
.

 

[Blueysmum]

Well we will wait a little while and then test x