XC thought for the day - would you ride a denerved horse xc?

The logic behind denerving in PSD at least is that the constant compression of the nerve has irritatedvit to such a level that even by splitting the fascia and removing the pressure of the compartment syndrome, the nerve is so irritated/ damaged it cannot return to normal, even after the underlying issue has resolved. In this case it seems a logical solution and not necissarily detrimental to continue as before if they heal. I would be more concerned by an inherent weaknesss in the ligament in this case. But if there is a reinjury they do go obviously lame again.
I'm not sure how it works in front feet tho
 
Yes I would, it totally depends on the denerving - and what has been denerved.

For PSD they only denerve the suspensory ligament at the top on the inside. It is one tiny branch of the nerve that only feeds that part of the ligament. They do it not to stop the PSD hurting in the future but to enable the healing process on the ligament. At the same time as the neurectomy a fasciaoctomy (sp) is also performed. This allows the ligament to swell and then heal - but to heal properly the horse has to use the leg properly - which they won't do without the neurectomy. This is why the horse is still lame until the suspensory ligament has healed. They don't get denerved and then are instantly sound. And also why the operation for PSD does not always work.
 
To Kerilli/Magic Magpie/Dragon 22
Yes-denerving in this way is banned under FEI and BE
The difficulty is proving it as some horses are extremely insensitive to even sharp pressure on their heel bulbs anyway
Many horses do go on to compete at an exceedingly high level in eventing/shojumping after said operation without any problems
 
Out of interest, some people on the thread seem to be quite concerned about de-nerving as a wellfare issue (setting aside the possible dangers of competing such a horse), but why is that?

Neurecromy is an established treatment for some human conditions and usually considered a huge relief from pain. Some side effects will merit consideration, e.g. neurectomy for trigeminal neuralrgia may lead to drooling or affect speach, but these seem specific to these conditions.

Why would a horse be worse off after de-nerving, if it is done to remove pain?
 
Booboos - I think most people seem to feel that it is not the relief of pain per se which is the issue, it is the idea of desensitising a horse to enable it to continue performing and thus taking a risk of sustaining further injury due to the lack of sensation. I have already stated that I have no issue with simple pain relief (and I have trigeminal pain so know about the techniques you mention), but only in so far as a horse (or human) is thus able to go about daily actiivity with their pain relieved or even absent. I think it is different if you are performing this kind of operation simply to enable an animal to do something which it really shouldn't be. I think there is a distinction too between this and, for example, kissing spine ops etc. where an operation is carried out to rectify the cause of a problem.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Out of interest, some people on the thread seem to be quite concerned about de-nerving as a wellfare issue
Why would a horse be worse off after de-nerving, if it is done to remove pain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not mainly concerned about the welfare aspect of it, if I had a horse which needed this opperation to live a pain free life then I MAY go ahead with it but it wouldn't be my first port of call.

I am concerned about the ethics of performing this opperation on a horse in order to compete it for the following reasons...

1) at what point do we admit that the horse we are training and competing can go no further? If the natural onset of pain and reduced performance in a horse who is physically not capable to continue this level of work can be side stepped by performing an opperation on it then at what stage will owners draw the line?... If we can do opperations on wind, inject joints, cut notches into spinal chords, and damage nerves in order to irradicate/paralyse the affecting areas and improve performance then if this is condoned by the sport who will say enough is enough and when?... Ethically imho I wouldn't want to go to some these lengths to keep my horse competing, but then maybe I am only saying that from my position having never tasted the heady heights of 4* competition and all the hard graft pain and tears to get there...

2) I do believe this treads a fine line when it comes to 'performance enhancing' and giving someone an unfair advantage for example I may be competing against a denerved horse who was previously lame but now 100% sound after surgery but my footy tb who pulled a shoe off the day before and is still sore on it cannot be buted to relieve the minor pain of being recently shod even though I know it is minor and will be gone within a few days. Do you see what I'm getting at?...
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
To Kerilli/Magic Magpie/Dragon 22
Yes-denerving in this way is banned under FEI and BE


[/ QUOTE ]
If this is indeed the case people quite high up in BE must be aware and are turning a blind eye to it as at least one horse who has won a prestigious FEI event this year has had a neurectomy.
 
De-nerving is relatively common in PSD injuries, as mentioned above. I would have no problems in competing a horse with this procedure having been carried out. As DD says the reason behind the procedure is to allow the Suspensory to heal in a correct manner, without the horse trying to compensate for it, and so = shortening in the fibres. The denerving DOES NOT effect the sensitivity of the front of the leg, or the reactions, as it is an isolated nerve to that one area of the leg. As said before, I am sure there are a huge no. of horses competing with this proceudre having been carried out.

I personally don't see the problem in these sort of procedures, or kissing spine surgery, etc etc. If it means the horse can continue doing the job it enjoys (which they must do to get to any decent level in evneting) pain free, why not? I am sure human athletes have numerous procedures carried out on them that a majority of people are unaware of.

However, there is a fine line of carrying out thse procedures because of general wear and tear on a well managed competition horse, and carrying them out to mask problems that have been caused through short cuts and genetic weaknesses. That is where the procedures need to be more transparent IMHO.
 
Thanks both, that's very interesting!

Camilla4: I completely agree, if the procedure puts the horse at further risk of injury then it is a serious problem. Really sorry to hear about the neuralgia, my mum suffers from it as well and she has had excruciating pain (if you will excuse the off topic suggestion, my mum has found a lot of relief from acupuncture).

Chloe_GHE:
On the first point I think if the horse is pain free and happy competing I don't think I have a problem with it. If the procedure itself does not lead to a deterioration in the horse's welfare and at the same time allows it to continue competing then I think I would be OK with it. I would be concerned if the procedure required to keep the horse in competition was detrimental to its general welfare. So I suppose it all depends on what de-nerving does. If it simply leads to loss of sensation I would not have a problem with it, if it also leads to a greater likelihood of injury then I would do it but not compete the horse anymore (of course I don't even event much less 4* so speaking hypothetically all the way!!).

On the second point, I see your concern and I totally agree. In terms of competition it does tend to confer an unfair advantage if it keeps the horse sound in a situation where other horses may have gone lame. Probably why the FEi does not allow it?
 
Booboos - thanks for that!!!

KatB - you've given me food for though. As I've said, it's not an area where my knowledge is strong and I was certainly not aware of the finer details of denerving. Thanks for the info!
 
QR: OMG, this is the best thread in my memory on HHO, full of information, some of which is really quite technical, plus a very healthy debate on valid issues without any histrionics. HHO at its best by a country mile!

I initially looked up the thread as I have no experience of denerving, but having heard of the procedure I was wondering recently about a pupil's horse who can put in the most terrifying stumbles sometimes. Now I've read the thread I'm pretty sure denerving has nothing to do with his problems, they stem from something else.

Chloe - in my limited experience, my boy that got to two weeks off Badminton before he broke down had joint injections from the age of 7, plus hideously expensive joint supplements most of his competition life. The mare that got to advanced and was one week off Bramham (with a tentative hope of Burghley the same year) needed plenty of physio to keep her supple as her confo was against her, although she never had joint issues in the legs, she just got arthritic in her back eventually but she was in her mid-teens then. Certainly over here show-jumpers are injected a lot, my vet has quite a bit to say about this.
 
It is a good thread isn't it? Definitely learning a lot, which is good and, as you say, no histrionics!!
Thanks for all this extra detail, Tiger's Eye...
 
[ QUOTE ]
The mare that got to advanced and was one week off Bramham (with a tentative hope of Burghley the same year) needed plenty of physio to keep her supple as her confo was against her, although she never had joint issues in the legs, she just got arthritic in her back eventually but she was in her mid-teens then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say then TE that your mare sounds like one of the few eventers to make it to the upper levels without any medical intervention, I consider physio, chiro, mctimoney, massage, bowen etc to be typical treatments for comp horses, and even my boys at intro get regular physio.
smile.gif


p.s. have you sent your letter off yet?...
 
Personally I wouldn't want to even go round an Intro on a horse I didn't think was as close to 100% right as it could ever be - for example my mare has a slightly odd action due to a past fracture but that's not going to change and at my level doesn't affect her performance but if it were the case that it was something I felt had even the slightest possibility to hinder their performance then I just wouldn't bother trying for mine and the horses sake. But that's easy for me to say as I'm not trying to make a living out of it.
 
Another one for you Chloe: my old boy, William, got there with no medical intervention at all, just a bit of chiro/osteo work at regular intervals. Eventually he did need it - strangles had left his immune system unable to cope with long format levels of fitness work - but we didn't find that out until a year after I had to pull him up at Badminton as he was feeling lousy. The immune-boosting jabs were way out of my budget and I wasn't sure that I wanted it so desperately with a horse that owed me nothing (I bought him to do novice, maybe intermediate on), so he then became a one-day specialist before retiring to the hunting field.

Oh how times have changed
shocked.gif
(we're talking 11 years ago now), although I'm sure I was incredibly naive as to what went on with everyone else's horses.

Agree that this is a fascinating and informative thread - a huge yay for the power of the internet.
smirk.gif
 
See to me it's horses like TE's mare and your William that give me hope. I know I will never be able to get to that level but to hear that you can do it without having to have the money for expensive opperations or ever be put in that situation means I think it must be pheasible for me to get to at least Novice with the horse I have now. It would be nice if there was more transparency about top level horses and what medical history they do have as some replies on here have piqued my interest and now I'm wondering really what lengths people go to, and what the average treatments/maintenance for a top level horse are? and in contrast what's the minimum level of support a badminton horses has ever needed, can you turn it out 24/7, school in a paddock, take it hunting for xc practise, and still get round badders succesfully today or has the sport evolved too much for that to ever happen again?...

Sorry just a list of questions really as I certainly don't have the answers!
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
It would be nice if there was more transparency about top level horses and what medical history they do have as some replies on here have piqued my interest and now I'm wondering really what lengths people go to, and what the average treatments/maintenance for a top level horse are? a !
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

This thread has had the same effect on me - really got me wondering/thinking now. I haven't competed in years, and then never at top level, so most of this is pretty new to me!
 
Added to which Chloe_GHE I heard some rather interesting and fully verifiable gossip earlier in the week (NOT from KC, I hasten to add, but from someone who ought to know better all the same) about some 4* horses which have had recent stem-cell treatment which I don't think is common knowledge.

Providing that these horses go on to stay the distance at the top levels you can add these to your list of 'top eventers who would have been written off as broken down if they'd been born 5 years earlier but thanks to the miracles of modern veterinary intervention live to complete another 3-day'

I am glad that someone has cleared up the finer points of denerving - it is a blanket term for a lot of different procedures depending on which nerve is severed. I promise you that it does not (in the right hands) produce a horse which is dead from the knee down!
 
sorry, been out all day, just catching up on the thread, some fab replies peeps, thankyou!
very interesting about PSD treatment. Of course, i have no way of knowing whether the 2 horses i was told about had this kind of treatment, or different. i know there are a lot of different types of denerving, with, obviously, very different effects etc.
okay... i'd distinguish between my primary concern for the rider's (and horse's) safety xc IF the denerving is such that it actually might make the horse clumsier etc - which was my initial point, even if i didn't stress it properly - and my concern that the pain is there for a reason, and a horse might possibly have a catastrophic mechanical breakdown because it doesn't feel the early warning signs which would have made it lame.
other than that is the whole area of "if this really is banned by FEI and BE, why are there horses competing successfully at 4* which are (allegedly) known to have had it..."
Chloe, my grey mare (placings at A, clear xc round our only CCI***, aiming for bigger stuff when retired due to cataract, argh) didn't take veterinary intervention to stay on the road. She had massages every 2 weeks or so (cos my best friend is a qualified Equine Masseuse, and i thought the mare deserved spoiling!) and chiropractic treatment every time i thought she needed it, but that was it, she was never injected etc etc. she was a real toughie though... (and i retired her in 2000, so things were prob different then. if she hadn't got the cataract and had gone to Bramham and Burghley as i'd planned, and had needed injections etc, i would probably have gone for them...)
 
Technically I have been denerved when I had cruciate liament surgery on my knee. I was told the nerves would grow back slowly from where they had been cut. I had very narrow parts of my leg running between the knee and the ankle that were completely numb. Now I have more feeling.

On horses I think its very different to denerve large areas on a horse so it will be sound to compete when it would never be sound than for something like PSD surgery which is very precise and over a tiny area.
 
3.42i BE Rule Book 2009
All horses must be sound and free from infection or contagious disease. A
horse is not eligible to compete when:
a. it has an open tracheotomy (tubed);
b. any of its limbs or parts of a limb have been de-sensitised by whatever means whether temporarily or permanently.

Interestingly I'm not sure where this leaves fasciotomy/neurectomy for PSD...
 
[ QUOTE ]
See to me it's horses like TE's mare and your William that give me hope. I know I will never be able to get to that level but to hear that you can do it without having to have the money for expensive opperations or ever be put in that situation means I think it must be pheasible for me to get to at least Novice with the horse I have now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scope of horse and talent of rider aside (since I don't know either of you well enough to know if they will affect your chances of getting there!), it is entirely feasible for a rank amateur to get to N on a horse which needs no intervention. I did it, in 2 seasons. I bought the horse as a 5yo (autumn of his 5yo year) and in his 6yo year did intro and PN, then as a 7yo he did PN and N. We were completely the blind leading the blind - I'd never ridden a horse in outline let alone evented and he had no brakes or steering to speak of and hadn't evented either. We did it on nothing more than half a scoop of pony nuts a day, 24/7 turnout and the help of some very good friends/trainers. Horse in question never had any treatment beyond one back check every six months where invariably nothing needed doing. Horse would have gone CCI* and Intermediate last year (as an 8yo) on the same regime had ulcers not struck, and that has stopped play for now, but once he and I have got with the programme and are working well as a team again, I have no reason to think he'll suddenly need more intervention - he's just very tough. (and I am very lucky and thank my lucky stars I was allowed to buy such a forgiving, trainable, amateur-friendly horse!)

The thing is, there is a world of difference (IMO) between 'an advanced/3*/4* horse' and the same thing but with team spots in your head - I feel sure you would do pretty much anything legal if you were the sort of person to be gunning for a team place - and maybe some more dubious things too, not to mention I think the wear and tear to get there must be greater because as the saying goes, an amateur practices until they get it right, a professional practices until they can't get it wrong.
 
Very interesting and informative thread. I think that it really depends on the type of "de-nerving" in the first place.

For example I had a horse who, nearly 6 years ago now, had hind suspensory problems and had a "plantar metartasal neurectomy and partial fasciotomy" - which I believe in plain english is a de-nerving of the side of the leg and the removal of some scar tissue from the suspensory. As it happens, he was a dressage horse so did not go XC but I was told by the vet who carried out the op (a very well known and respected vet) that he had operated on a number of top SJs and eventers as well as dressage horses, very successfully and that he did not perceive it to be a problem as there was not total desensitisation of the leg and/or foot.

On the other side of the argument, I bought an older SJ/event pony for my then 12 year old daughter at the end of last year. He was very cheap because he had been de-nerved in one forelimb - as it turned out the nerves were already growing back and I was advised to re-operate earlier this year. When I bought him I was told that they had never got to the bottom of his lameness although xrays taken earlier this year suggested that it might be a navicular problem. We duly had him de-nerved again and he now has no apparent sensation from just above the fetlock down the back and sides of his leg and foot - hard to tell what if any he has at the front. He is extremely well and happy and jumping out of his skin. I realise that some of you will probably think that I should have retired him or PTS there and then but both my vet and the specialists advised that they felt this was not necessary at this stage.

BUT before you all jump down my throat, there is no way I would ever let him go XC (even when I first bought him) - we are extremely careful with him and only jump him very occasionally on surfaced arenas in the hope that we get relatively true and even going. Not running him XC is not just due to my daughter's age - I would not consider it safe for any one of any age on any horse or pony to go XC after such a de-nerving operation as it surely cannot be in the horse's (or rider's) best interest to expect it to jump fences off uneven and difficult ground conditions when it does not have 100% sensation in one of it's feet.

There is, of course, as has already been pointed out, a BE rule that should prevent such horses and ponies competing in any event (and if you take the rule literally, then it would rule out my dressage horse as well as the jumping pony). However, as has also been said above, it can be very difficult to prove that an animal has been denerved - although in the case of the pony the vets were able to find some evidence of scar tissue at the original operation site).
 
But what if something does go wrong with your horse Chloe? I am sure you won't not get him a vet (if you follow), and then if a vet recommends a certain type of treatment then you will almost certainly consider it (even if only for a nano-second before brain says "we could put a deposit on a house for that!).

I should point out the mare did not work particularly hard until I bought her when she was 11, and I think she managed an average of 3 or 4 events a season before she'd injure herself in some way or another. The gelding I think was not really suited to eventing in many ways, interestingly we were advised to inject his joints when he was rising 7 and he was done a couple of times that year, then possibly once the year after (all in Belgium), then not again until the year he was 10 (in the UK), which I seem to remember was decided on the basis of a normal scan, but this had no effect whatsoever and it was scintigraphy and MRI that showed what he actually had. My vet here (who is Belgian, but is an MRCVS and trained under Sue Dyson) rails against the prevailing attitude here amongst vets that goes along the lines of - it's not right in front, x-ray it, oh look we can see changes in the bone (because if you look hard enough you can find something 99.9% of the time), infiltrate the joint..... no scans, and certainly no scintigraphy or MRI unless the owner throws their weight around, and even then I think there are maybe 2 places in the country that do it.

I think horse management has progressed in many ways that allow less tough animals to last for longer, and alongside the change in format there are probably a lot of creatures on teams that may not even have got to advanced 10 - 20 years ago. For instance I only started getting someone to do something to my horses' backs in 2003, but now I consider part of my horses' general maintenance.
 
very interesting, thanks Cazza.
the last thing i'd say is that an otherwise healthy pony or horse should be retired or pts rather than having an op that can keep him/her on the road.
it's the xc in particular i was thinking about, and i totally agree with what you say about that.
as said above, it does make an utter mockery of the ban on bute for competition horses though, which is like an aspirin compared to the effects of denerving...
 
Forgot to mention that when I was talking about my pony to a top event rider friend at Poplar Park this year she also mentioned that she knew of some "top event horses" that were competing following de-nerving operations (although she didn't name names!)

As you say, Kerilli, it does make a mockery of the ban on bute if you can compete on a de-nerved horse - surely it engenders a whole new welfare issue - but then the doping rules do that anyway - as Ellen Whitaker says in today's H&H "we can't even put a cream on them if they have a rash" - but I guess that's a whole other topic!
 
no
friend had it done to her horse on vets advice obviously, but was told to work on a surface only and hack on the roads. No going over Cannock Chase or XC or field work
 
[ QUOTE ]
But what if something does go wrong with your horse Chloe? I am sure you won't not get him a vet (if you follow), and then if a vet recommends a certain type of treatment then you will almost certainly consider it (even if only for a nano-second before brain says "we could put a deposit on a house for that!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well at present I wouldn't consider major surgery an option for him taking into account what I paid for him, what level he has competed at, and the results at that level I would probubly just look to give him an easier life maybe loan him out as a RC type etc BUT if this was several years down the road and we were at I/A then it may be a different story, you can't really tell until you are in that position, but I would try to avoid anything as permanent as denerving it just doesn't sit right with me, maybe I'm not that competitive...

I understand the pressure of the decision would be another 10x harder if there was also a team place on the line....I wouldn't want to be in that position
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top