XC thought of the day - which type of fence causes the most accidents?

[blue2262]

"They still build steps because they are a valid question. Bounces aren't the safest fences in the world either, but are also a valid question."

What does this mean? Why is any particular type of fence a valid question?
Fixed fences are dangerous, just because a fence has been jumped a hundred times without an accident it does not mean it is safe. It is just a fence at which there has not yet been an accident.
If it is recognised and acknowledged that a particular type or style of fence causes more accidents than others then they should surely be avoided. There can be no justification for building fences to catch horses out, they only jump because riders ask them to!
I don't believe that steps up are the most dangerous, although I do hate jumping out of water.
We were at an event yesterday and the only nasty fall was in the showjumping!

 

[kerilli]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, they also now have the back higher than the front, which I think must help too?

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Yes, the horse can judge it more easily. at a course designers' course earlier this year Captain Mark Phillips encouraged all course designers and builders to have a slope to the top of all table fences, i was told, to give the horses extra room to get their front legs out of the way if they got a bit close/made an error. easy enough alteration to existing fences too.

Sorry, DieselDog, i didn't word my original post very clearly, my apologies.

 

[igglepiggle]

The only time my horse has fallen XC has been a single step out of water, and not at speed, so I'm not surprised. Interesting though, thanks for sharing!

 

[TableDancer]

RE the slope on tables, I THINK it is now compulsory, back edge must be x cm higher than front - there's a course builder on here somewhere, I'm sure he could tell us

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In general, they also now have the back higher than the front, which I think must help too?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see that working, I had a horse that I always had to warm up over oxers with the back rail higher - rather than a square oxer, as he then jumped a lot better in the ring. It got him in the air more, and he remembered it in the ring - but would you want your eventer to do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes - the only fences I ever want him to touch are brush/hedge ones. There's a difference between a horse which 'wastes time' in the air and one which judges things correctly and doesn't tap its way round the XC. I hate riding horses which do the XC by braille!

 

[kerilli]

[ QUOTE ]
"They still build steps because they are a valid question. Bounces aren't the safest fences in the world either, but are also a valid question."

What does this mean? Why is any particular type of fence a valid question?
Fixed fences are dangerous, just because a fence has been jumped a hundred times without an accident it does not mean it is safe. It is just a fence at which there has not yet been an accident.
If it is recognised and acknowledged that a particular type or style of fence causes more accidents than others then they should surely be avoided. There can be no justification for building fences to catch horses out, they only jump because riders ask them to!
I don't believe that steps up are the most dangerous, although I do hate jumping out of water.
We were at an event yesterday and the only nasty fall was in the showjumping!

[/ QUOTE ]

by "valid question" i mean "fair to the horse if ridden correctly." some fences are not (imho the one at Belton was not.)
there is a big difference between a fence which is testing, such as a bounce of the correct distance, with the elements of different colours to help the horse to differentiate between the parts, and a fence which tricks the horse.
table fences are known to cause horse falls and, in the past, a number of fatalities, unfortunately. if the horse makes a mistake and hits the front all he can do is skid across the top and fall, usually... unlike an upright, say, where he can sometimes get his legs down and stand up in spite of the error. table fences are usually fairer now than they used to be, fwiw.
edited to add: steps up aren't the most dangerous, i didn't say that. i said they cause the most accidents - i think there's a big difference.
as to your last sentence, i'm glad that there weren't any nasty falls xc at the event you were at, but don't really see what you're getting at!

 

[blue2262]

"as to your last sentence, i'm glad that there weren't any nasty falls xc at the event you were at, but don't really see what you're getting at! "

The point is that all fences are potentially dangerous, fixed ones more so than show jumps. We should all acknowledge this and designers in particular should treat the potential danger with respect.
It is impossible to predict where or when an accident will occur and to increase the risk beyond the inherant risk of jumping any fixed fence by incorporating some trick factor is not acceptable.

 

[jumptoit]

Just looked at the course map by the sunken lane I meant the flower pots which look to have a step up before them.

 

[TarrSteps]

I suspect the other issue with steps up is their tendency to be utterly unforgiving. They stop momentum and don't offer the horse anywhere to put its feet other than where they were headed originally. So leaving a leg or fiddling in the air - obviously not idea but part of xc riding - can have disastrous consequences where in another case the horse would have a bit more wriggle room and a few more seconds before landing to sort out a leg to land on. If the horse is also going too fast the step, let alone a mistake, can stop momentum completely, adding to the chances someone is going to end up on the ground.

One of the scariest falls I've ever seen was at a step up in a LG clinic. There was a very high headed, strong-ish older schoolmaster type in the Int group and she suggested a shadow roll to get his ears out of space. It worked a bit for the first few fences but he galloped into the step at a decent pace . . . and only got about a foot off the ground. He literally slid along the step on his chin and chest, firing his rider straight into the face of the second step and piling on top of her. It was just like his legs had been jerked out from under him at good speed. Proof that even people at LG's level live and learn.

 

[kerilli]

TS, what's a "shadow roll" please?
sounds a horrible fall.

jumptoit, sorry, i thought you meant the thing that Zara had her problem at, that had a slope out instead of a step this year, iirc, could be wrong though, maybe it was a slope in and a step out?!

 

[TarrSteps]

One of those giant sheepskin nosebands you see on race horses and sometimes on jumpers. I guess the name is because it's supposed to stop them looking at shadows on the ground.

I do remember thinking at the time it wasn't the most fair thing to do to the horse. He had a good xc record (couldn't do dressage to save his life but he had found his niche as a YR horse), was safe, careful and knew his job, he just looked odd doing it. The kid riding him just let him do his thing. And they switched the tack halfway through the lesson after he'd jumped some of the fences but not all of them. Still, he seemed to be able to judge the others okay, just didn't have a hope at the step, which would suggest it was a perception problem not reluctance/confusion just because of the tack change.

I should add they both walked away but it was a long time ago and it certainly left an impression on me!

 

[FestiveSpirit]

[ QUOTE ]
RE the slope on tables, I THINK it is now compulsory, back edge must be x cm higher than front - there's a course builder on here somewhere, I'm sure he could tell us

[/ QUOTE ]

If its the same one that I am thinking of TD, I asked for his comments but he is at Burgie and has no computer... lame excuse I thought

 

[kerilli]

ewww, right. must admit, i've used one in the past but never introduced 1/2 way through a session. some horses focus like that, they just like having their head high (my grey did) and they can be brilliant and safe xc horses that way.
hmm. i'm surprised LG tried to change him tbh.

 

[TableDancer]

Just watched the Badminton course walk with HT and MT on H&CTV (don't you love initials

) and that sunken thing did have a step up (slope down) in fact it was that which TT () tripped up causing the problem in the first place.

I agree with TS falls at steps can be really horrid, especially when there are two steps up on a bounce distance. It was at one of these that Austin O'Connor's lovely horse broke his neck at the Europeans at Punchestown a few years ago - tripped up the first step and head-butted the second

ETA: I've just remembered, I saw another horse break its neck doing something similar, it was at Bicton on the Intermediate, Ollie Townend. I was walking the course for the OI later and horse jumped awkwardly up step onto bank and somehow broke it's neck on the log which you jumped off it - stone dead at the scene. Sorry to be so macabre but perhaps there is something in K's theory. I was really shocked and upset, ended up withdrawing from the XC

 

[Jane_Lou]

Can I add a step with a ditch in front, what I would call an Irish bank. I had a little horse who had a tendency to drop his back legs, after our 2nd fall we stuck to dressage!
I saw a horse/rider fall at Keysoe in the novice over just such a fence and I don't think it was the only problem of the day at that fence.

 

[kerilli]

Jane_lou, 3 horses fell at that ditch-and-step at Keysoe N this spring, i was told on Sat at Brigstock by the rider of 1 of them as we waited for xc together. apparently it's never caused any problems before... but it encourages you to take it at a slight angle, which is never good at a bank.
TD, i instantly thought of Austin O'Connors' lovely horse who did that when I was told about this. As TS says, a step is totally unforgiving.

I'll be riding them just a bit more carefully in future, that's for sure.

 

[spookypony]

How completely unexpected! It makes sense, when I think about it, though: nowhere to go if there's a problem!

At the moment, steps up and water are the only types of XC obstacle we can do reliably...is that really weird?

 

[Safina]

Interesting - a horse at my old yard was killed going up steps. Experienced horse at an XC session tripped up the first, headbutted the second, was dead by the time the rider had got back to her feet and the instructor had run over.

Spookypony - I've always seen a set of steps/steps out of water as a nice relief fence. Perhaps I've never had an accident or I might just ride them with caution already.

 

[Maloo]

Hmm thats V interesting - B and Song has a nasty fall at Gatcombe Int in '07 steps out of water - completely misread it - very much an unforgiving ouch!

 

[Tnavas]

Interesting re trotting - as that was my immediate thought about riding a step out of water! Trot it. I've seen one of my students disappear under water when he over rode a big log into the water, we had had torrential rain the night before and the water was deeper than it should have been - dragged at the pony's legs and tipped him over. Both were fine - very wet - Pony left the scene!! much to the riders disgust.

Often for the less experienced it is a preconceived idea that XC means you need to go fast all the way around and forget about all the technical questions. At a Pony Club Hunter Trials many years ago I saw one rider jump the bounce as one fence - she came in so fast that the horse put in the effort and cleared both fences!

 

[jules89]

Such an intersting post. I hate steps up (don't mind them down but didn't like Hambledon's 3 bounce steps down, argh!)

Going round Hambledon, I came up to the two big steps up round the far end of the course, got my bouncy, powerful canter, and a good shot...and Z just totally didn't jump them cleanly! I had to lift him up the 2nd because of how he jumped the first...And he is a very clean jumper...!

The top of the step had a white line for the horses to read it, but the horses just didn't seem to?! Madness.

Interesting though, very interesting

 

[moogrrr]

I haven't read the rest of the replied, just the first one so i am unbiased in my view, but i would say steps up and down. Having watched some very scary rides at Brigstock at a step up, jump, down step, jump combination (not sure which number it was, but the one in the garden??) i dislike them even more now! by the end i stopped watching people jumping it as i kept having to close my eyes!

Some people rode it brilliantly but strangly i couldn't tell you why - i always find this type of jump is often luck rather than judgement.

 

[SmartieBean]

For me personally water has caused the most problems for my mare with the steps in and out shes fine to trot and canter through but ask her to jump in or out and she either cat leaps or stops dead so can completely understand why they cause most problems. Jumping out i find is a little easier but i just think its the water thats the problem hehe