XC thought of the day - which type of fence causes the most accidents?

[kerilli]

This came from a friend of mine who runs a lovely xc schooling and competition facility, with BE courses up to Intermediate.
It isn't a trick question - according to M E-S, "roll tops" cause the most horse falls, but that is because there are more of this type of fence than any other... lies, damned lies and statistics, and all that. So, that's not the answer.
So, what type of fence causes the most injuries and falls?
(I got it totally wrong, and have learnt something from it...)

 

[connie1288]

I'll stick my neck out and say fences involving water, either jumping in or out or in it.
Not what i necessarily think are problem fences but in terms of statistics cause the most problems?!

 

[Bossanova]

Are we talking horse falls here or rider falls?

Horse falls I'd have thought big wide fences cause the most with horses not reaching the back part. Personally I think very upright, airy rails are an invitation to leave a leg.

 

[kerilli]

sorry, horse and rider falls, both types, basically incidents which require trips to the vet or doc/hospital, and also minor injuries, apparently.

 

[ajf]

Hmm I'm really not sure, but very intrested to find out!

 

[dieseldog]

Ones made of wood. I don't think you can narrow it down to a type of fence - too many other variables.

 

[Bossanova]

I agree that I would be suprised if one type of fence came out as significantly more likely to cause a fall than any other when averaged out across all the events.....

 

[SpottedCat]

Steps up, especially out of water would be my guess.

 

[ajn1610]

Probably something ridiculous like a hedge - the same way beanbags cause the most accidents in the home!

 

[kerilli]

Spot on, SC.
I quote:
"Most dangerous xc fence is a step up!! Horses misread these more that any other fence and it doesn't matter if it is big -over 1m or small at 60cm, in a combination or out of water. I have sent more horses to vets and riders to hospital than any other type of fence." (this is both xc schooling and in competition.)

Interesting, huh? I'd be prepared to bet a lot of money that it is usually due to rider error though, approaching too fast perhaps and not giving the horse time to work out the question.
[The only mistake i've ever had at a step was when i was inexperienced, at a hunter trial. i expected horse to back off (slope into) water and so rode very strongly to it, horse didn't back off at all, charged in thanks to my strong driving (unnecessarily so) aids and then i didn't check him fast enough, so he didn't have time to take in the double step question. luckily we just rolled sideways up the 2nd one (he was clever enough to turn sideways when he realised he didn't have any room, so just flopped up it on his side), i stepped off, and we were both unhurt, but it was 100% rider error, and i learnt to ride more circumspectly!]

 

[SpottedCat]

Does not surprise me at all. They are hellish to ride well IMO, they often shadow strangely giving a false groundline, and they are the only thing I hate jumping in cold blood when schooling - if I am not in a clinic then I avoid them like the plague unless in something easy for the horse to read like a sunken road, and even then I often won't bother.

 

[milliepops]

That's really interesting, but I Sooooo didn't need to know that

I already have a total phobia of steps up... now I know why!

 

[kerilli]

Funny, i've never worried about them at all, but might start now... however, the incident above taught me NEVER to rush a horse to a step so maybe I ride them carefully automatically?!

 

[dieseldog]

Who are you quoting and what study did they conduct? And if they have sent so many horses to the vets etc why still build them?

How many of the fatalities have occured at steps? Simon Long's was I think.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Interesting and not surprised. Sarnita is very clever xc horse but she cannot read a step out of water. I am pretty sure it is not always rider error certainly at Hambleden I had a good steady canter between leg and hand and she still lifted to take off a stride early. We have had numerous trips at steps at least 5 that I can think off so there is something making it difficult for her to read right.

 

[hannahkirkhill]

I do not like any jump out of / in water, I allways find them missleading, and wonder how a horse can judge how big they are when the bottom bit is hidden by the water?
Or are they more clever than I give them justice

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]


How many of the fatalities have occured at steps? Simon Long's was I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think K was talking about fatal falls as I think those are def in the impossible to generalise category, just in the 'which fence causes the most problems' which may or may not be serious injuries. After all, most car crashes happen at v slow speeds, that does not mean most fatal car crashes happen at v low speeds (bit of a rubbish comparison but you know what I mean).

I think they are difficult for horses to read, I've never had an issue at steps up, but I still really bloody dislike them and would happily never jump a set again!

 

[connie1288]

Not really suprised in a way, i know of a set of steps on an intro BE course that have a very odd striding.
And the number of times you see a horse misjudge a step out of water.

 

[punk]

I would say - off the top of my head - combinations!!!

A friend of mine's daughter (very experienced for her age) had a fall at an event at the weekend and broke her leg badly in two places.

She was riding a youngish horse in the Pre Novice. Apparently the horse jumped boldly over the first rail at the coffin. It was downhill, with a very short ONE stride to the ditch, which had telegraph poles on the ground each side. The horse ran out unexpectedly, and she fell off, breaking the flag, and landed hard on the far edge of the ditch

Ouch!!!!!!!

It was the forward and downward fall, onto something hard (telegraph pole) that broke her leg.

Firstly, I think it is quite a test at PN to have only one stride after the rail, even if not going downlhill.

Secondly, when the mother politely mentioned this to the organisers, it was completely brushed off, and left a bit of a bad taste.

(Although the family were very happy with the help and concern shown by oranisers in other ways).

K - Haven't put the name of the event in, but PM me if you want to know!!

 

[kerilli]

[ QUOTE ]
Who are you quoting and what study did they conduct? And if they have sent so many horses to the vets etc why still build them?

How many of the fatalities have occured at steps? Simon Long's was I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am quoting a friend who has run xc schooling at all levels, and competitions, for many years, and who is a qualified BE Coach. She hasn't conducted "a study", this is purely her opinion, based on years of experience, and I don't want to put her name to this without permission. imho it doesn't matter who said it really, if you can trust me that this is a trusted and experienced source.
Most of the injuries have been minor, she said.
They still build steps because they are a valid question. Bounces aren't the safest fences in the world either, but are also a valid question.

Sarah_Jane, have you tried trotting to steps out of water for a while, so she gets the hang of getting in much closer? I always trotted with my grey, even at A level, and she never missed at a step. This included trotting to the big bounce steps at Savernake advanced: water, step, step, stride, big flowerbed arrowhead spread, all fine from trot! (only 2 or 3 of us did it successfully all day too, iirc!)

 

[jumptoit]

Do steps at higher levels not often exist upon the course as part of a combination or collection of fences, causing riders to ride for the jump after rather than the step eg. the lake at Badminton (although it didn't cause any accidents afaik) were riders more focused on the fence just after? And the same with the outlander bank? And with The Sunken Lane?

 

[kerilli]

interesting thought, jumptoit. the Sunken Lane wasn't a step up this time, iirc, it was just a slope up so much easier on the horses.

 

[wizoz]

I've not read the replies because I didn't want to be influenced by what others have said. I think it could possibly be drop fences or parallel/table fences.

Cheating I know, as i've chosen two and both are probably wrong

 

[dieseldog]

I'm sorry I misunderstood your post I thought you had seen some statistical data. Until someone does a proper study on it I don't think anyone will ever know the answer.

Could be a good final year project for an Equine Degree, BE keep the records from all the events don't they?

 

[wizoz]

Told you i'd be wrong! I would never have thought that it would be a step up!

 

[TableDancer]

BE do their own analysing, I think they are pretty on top of the data but, as K says, pure stats can be misleading - although of course, you can analyse bad falls per jumping effort to remove the effect of so many roll-tops.

At one stage they worked out that tables were responsible for the most fatalities, and they completely disappeared from XC courses for a few years. They've crept back in but always with a bench towards, which seems to help horses judge them. Interestingly, of course, the fence at which Ian died was a table, admittedly small, without any bench.

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]
BE do their own analysing, I think they are pretty on top of the data but, as K says, pure stats can be misleading - although of course, you can analyse bad falls per jumping effort to remove the effect of so many roll-tops.

At one stage they worked out that tables were responsible for the most fatalities, and they completely disappeared from XC courses for a few years. They've crept back in but always with a bench towards, which seems to help horses judge them. Interestingly, of course, the fence at which Ian died was a table, admittedly small, without any bench.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, they also now have the back higher than the front, which I think must help too?

 

[jumptoit]

[ QUOTE ]
interesting thought, jumptoit. the Sunken Lane wasn't a step up this time, iirc, it was just a slope up so much easier on the horses.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably right - I was going off the top of my head!

 

[LEC]

The only fence I thought that was totally hideous at Barbury was the step into and out of water. The step out looked huge. I just struggle to get enough power in the water then collect and contain so I really hate them.

I think its this episode but Lucinda explains how to ride steps in detail its really interesting.
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/episode/team-fredericks-episode-10

 

[dieseldog]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, they also now have the back higher than the front, which I think must help too?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see that working, I had a horse that I always had to warm up over oxers with the back rail higher - rather than a square oxer, as he then jumped a lot better in the ring. It got him in the air more, and he remembered it in the ring - but would you want your eventer to do that?