Yard Dilemma

Dialemma said:
We will try that honetpot. That sounds exactly like the YO. I used to think she was so helpful because she was forever offerng to help - not realising all those 'favours' were going on the bill! A livery had a headache and YO offered her a paracetamol.... which then went on the bill!
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I'm pretty sure that can't be legal! What a pain (ha ha, pun not intended ?).
OP, are you sure all these extras are being done? Could some of these welfare-necessary hidden extras be imaginary jobs that have occurred? For example, tail washing?
I'm sure i'm being cynical!
 
If you find another yard put your name down first and then tell the others or you finish up finding a yard with 5 vacancies (rare if it's a good yard) the others put their names down first and you are 6th on the list.
 
Dialemma said:
We will try that honetpot. That sounds exactly like the YO. I used to think she was so helpful because she was forever offerng to help - not realising all those 'favours' were going on the bill! A livery had a headache and YO offered her a paracetamol.... which then went on the bill!
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Reading through this thread it is illegal for anyone who is not a qualified medical Doctor or possibly a qualified very senior Paramedic to give/prescribe paracetamol. As far as I am aware even a pharmacist cannot "prescribe" any drug. They can advise towards non-prescription medications but that is it. Your YO is on extremely dodgy ground charging for paracetamol. If I remember correctly from my last advanced first aid/CPR/ defibrillator course to give anyone a drug be it prescribed or not is deemed an assault and punishable by very large fine+/- prison time
 
Thanks for all the replies. I'm sure what she is doing is not legal but what a livery could do about being charged for a pill she willingly accepted I don't know? It may be against the kaw but I doubt the police would be terribly interested. And that really is the nucelar option which we are not keen on! I think she is also in breach of contract - she sublets stables all the time and double charges for them. When a livery sold a horse and had a few weeks gap while buying a new one there was a new horse in there the next day! Even though she said she wanted to keep her stable for her new one. Then said please reduce my fee while my stable is not available. But she flatly refused saying as soon as she wanted the stable the other horse would be asked to leave and her stable would be there for her. She's nuts. But I'm not going to go down the legal route I don't think. Too expensive and stressful. I'd rather not pay and just see what she does.

Thanks for all the advice - scary how many similar stories there are. The perfect solution would be to find a way to change her behaviour so that will be our first port of call. A letter signed by all of us saying we are unhappy with the extra charges and want all extras agreed in advance. Though another problem is the sheer volume of calls we all get. I work which seems to pass her by completely. I can get 5 calls in a day about nothing. I used to panic whenever her name came up on my phone thinking there was some major drama with my horse. Now I just think ffs and ignore it! It's always things like 'please being your horse in' - er no I am AT WORK. So she does it and bills me. So not sure how to word what we want? Maybe something like - if SHE chooses to move our horses around for land managemrnt reasons or to poo pick before we arrive then we are not to be billed. Only charges we request or jobs we have failed to do ourselves in a reasonable time frame can be billed for? Plus no subletting of stables. No using stables for grass liveries - on biosecurity grounds if nothing else. And daily tunr out for our horses.

I agree I should not be the one to stick my neck above the parapet without support from the others.

In fact the best solution would be to sublet the whole yard from her for a flat monthly fee! But I can't see her agreeing to that as she's such a contol freak.

We really want a sole use yard we can rent together so are putting out some feelers locally but it's hard because we don't want her to get wind of it. She happily chucks people off at the drop of a hat. Which may be why the yard is nice - we are all regular payers, responsible owners and reasonable people! But we don't want to be homeless at short notice.

Thanks again for replies. Wish us luck x
 
If anyone is good at finding yards then can you pm me. I don't really want to put my location on here. In the end it won't matter - I have said nothing I would not say to her directly. Eventually! But just now it feels like I need to be careful not to be identifiable till I find a new yard. England though!
 
Personally, I wouldn't waste my time discussing matters with your YO, verbally or in writing. She's not going to change. She's going to tell you again 'Leave if you don't like it'.
I'd pay the ridiculous extras, and find another yard as soon as possible. I'd then tell everyone that asked what a nutter your ex YO was. In the equine industry, reputations are everything.
Good luck!
 
You're probably right but it's such a great yard in every other way that I think it's worth a shot. If she's got money worries, 10 horses all leaving might make her think twice.
 
Dialemma said:
You're probably right but it's such a great yard in every other way that I think it's worth a shot. If she's got money worries, 10 horses all leaving might make her think twice.
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Well make sure you all agree on exactly what is being said and what you want, you ALL turn up and hand over the letter signed by you all.
Make sure you are in the three musketeers mode "all for one and one for all" and then cross you fingers and watch and learn, and hope that no one will start to back track and throw you all under the bus.
 
Very unfortunate. I was at a yard which had a lovely bunch of liveries, but the YO was totally money orientated at the expense of the welfare of our horses. Anyway, long story short, we all left within three months once the winter was over (this was years and years ago) and although we all keep in touch with each other, we've all gone our separate ways. I reckon it was the YO's behaviour that was holding us all together, although we do have a laugh about it now. I'd disperse as soon as you can, before winter sets in, and just stay friends with your pals. :)
 
vhf said:
I know of a not totally dissimilar situation where the entire yard got together, found an alternative, and left en masse one weekend when yo was away...
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A yard just down the road was surprised to discover in one weekend at the end of a month, twelve horses left. The boarders had enough and did it as a statement. These things happen when YO's aren't reasonable.
 
Thanks for all replies. She seems to be getting worse all the time. She has forbidden the use of a short strip of tarmac that runs from the barn behind her house to the arenas because she does not want horses walking behind her house. So everyone now has to go a circuitous and rough route round 3 sides to avoid a 10m strip of tarmac to leave the stable area. One horse is very footsore following seedy toe and the owner asked if just for the time being the horse could go out to the small rehab paddock on the tarmac to avoid the stones. Answer- no.

She has decided she wants a 'yard farrier' and she will arrange the visits. In the July bills there were fees for arranging the farrier and £20 each time for 'holding' the horse for horses who don't need holding.

She chose my own farrier for the yard which is fortunate. But not all horses are on the same shoeing schedule so when a shoe started clinking a week before the visit, I texted him like I have done for 5 years and he agreed to come the next day. She told me I should have arranged it through her. I ignored that. Then I left him cash and texted him to tell him where it was as I could not be there and texted her to say my horse DOES NOT NEED HOLDING. But I bet she bills me anyway. She'll find some reason to charge.

I honestly think she is cracking up. We have said we are unhappy about grass liveries being in our stables during the day so she has stopped doing that but instead told us we can only go out every other day. So we have kicked off about that too and they are out every day now but she was almost in tears when agreeing daily turn out saying she'd rather have the place empty than look out onto trashed fields. But they aren't trashed at all. They are all lush and green. Far too lush really. She says it's her home and she wants the fields looking 'nice'. For someone who owned her own string of horses once, she acts like she hates them!

So the upshot is that a lot of us are planning to leave. But it is so hard to find a place and the most attractive option seems to be buying farm land and building stables/barns on it. How hard is it to get farm land changed to equestrian use land? Is an arena more difficult than stables. What are the security concerns if no-one lives there. And how tricky are the legalites of going into ownership with other people? It seems a minefield when it comes to a fair sharing of maintenance costs etc. I am cash rich, time poor. My friend is the oppsoite and she has managed her own horse land before (rented) so I wondered about me buying somewhere for her to manage? And for me to charge livery to others rather than co-own. But not sure I really have the appetite for becoming a yard owner! It would have to be 100% DIY. And friends only. Am I mad even considering this. But this YO seemed quite sane when I viewed and whatever hassle having my own liveries would create, it can't be as bad as having to deal with her every day. And at least I'd have more control. Right now I just feel helpless and at a mercy of the whims of a nutty woman.
 
I fully appreciate that you want to stay anonymous, but maybe giving us an idea of area you are looking might help with suggestions? Just a thought, and obvs your decision.
 
I'm north of Leek. If she finds this thread she will recogsnie herself anyway. From the replies she is clearly not alone in the nutjob YO stakes but the tarmac and farrier issue would probably be a giveaway. I'm anonymous mainly because she knows my username and is a bit of a stalker. But I doubt she trawls every HHO yard thread. Hope not anyway! My current preferred option is buying farm land and applying for change of use to equestrian and putting in stables, storage barns and an arena. But would not build a dwelling. So any advice on that would be greatly appreciated.
 
Dialemma said:
And how tricky are the legalites of going into ownership with other people? It seems a minefield when it comes to a fair sharing of maintenance costs etc..
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I would strongly advise avoiding any sort of co-ownership. If you are able to then buy something and charge rent, but owning with others would have a strong likelihood of ending in tears.

Good luck finding somewhere though - I really think you need to get far away from this nutty woman!
 
I would just find something else she sounds like a few yard owners that I have worked for in the past, in my experience they get worse over time and life is too short to try and change them you never will.

One I worked for for several years actually docked an hours pay from my wages as my horse had colic so I left 45 minutes early, I had basically done everything anyway had left another employee there to cover me just in case anyone needed staff, my horse had to be pts that evening which was a Friday and I left without being paid, on Monday she called me in said she had deducted an hours pay she knew my horse had been pts, it wasn't even the money it was just the pure lack of empathy and care that got me. I left shortly after I just lost all interest in the job and place after that.
 
I wouldn't stay there long enough to find somewhere to buy - round here you would be lucky to have land even vaguely suitable come up for sale once every 5 years - I would just move asap and then see about buying land at your leisure. I certainly wouldn't co-own. However if your time rich friend wants to livery with you perhaps you could have an arrangement whereby she gets her livery in exchange for doing your horse.
 
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Dialemma said:
Im a long term poster but dont want to be identified if poss. I am on a smallish private yard which has been perfect in every way for a couple of years. Lovely liveries, great hacking, all weather arena for schooling and close to home. But the YO has always been the only problem. I've just accepted her as being an unfortunate part of being there. But she is getting worse all the time and I don't know what to do.

So basically she is money obsessed. She has always added 'extras' on bills that are annoying but we've lived with it. Things like bringing in because its raining or changing rugs for no reason. If anyone complains they are told it's a 'welfare issue' and she will step in to look after the horses and charge, like it or lump it. Some people have flipped at being told they arent looking after their horses properly! But she just says leave then and lots do. There is a big turnover of liveries because of her. I just put up with it because it was only a quid here or there. But she is charging for more and more now. Things like tail washing no-one asked for or poo picking at lunchtime even though I always do it in the evening. And it is now adding up to a lot of extras every month!

Worst of all she has full grass liveries and keeps putting them into stables when horses with stables are out. So they are using up bedding etc. We've asked her not to and she said well if the grass liveiries can't come off the grass then yours can't have turn out! She won't allow DIY grass livery and full grass livery costs are the same as DIY with a stable. But there is not enough grass! The grass liveries don't want their horses in but she just says they need to rest the paddocks. Half the time they don't even know their horses have been in all day. So they are as unhappy about it as the liveries with stables. The contract does not say she can use stables for other people's horses.

There are now 6 of us with 10 horses between us who have had enough. Question is what do we do? Just leave? Delete unfair charges off the bill and pay the rest and see what she does? Lock our stable doors when we turn out in the morning! Polite conversations about these charges and the stables/turn out problem backed up in writing have had no effect so far. She's a broken bloody record: "you can leave if you don't like it'.

Also how would 10 horses find a new yard? We all get on so well, We help each other out all the time, ride together etc. Splitting up would be awful. And there are literally NO nice yards around us. I can't find any anyway. The ideal would be for us to rent a whole place for the 10 horses and not have a YO at all! 1 of us is an RI and one had horses at home for years so I think we'd manage fine on our own. But no idea how to find places with stables, storage and an arena and enough turn out.

Any suggestions?
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I haven't read the whole thread yet but this is so intriguing, I want to voice my theory right now.

Is it possible that your YO is going a 'little' (i.e. hugely, whoppingly) over-the-top due to CO-VID? No, not saying she has it, but is she applying herself to what she thinks are essential things because she's immersing herself in tasks rather than standing back and breathing??

It's just a theory.

Maybe I can imagine (if i were a YO, Heaven forbid) going a bit nuts myself.

It seems a terrible shame having to leave. I think every avenue should be tried before that one.

I reckon if you dig your heels in and refuse to pay, she might go off the deep end and kick you out.

If you go as a group to talk to her, she might feel bullied.

Is she tight-fisted and getting tighter and greedier by the minute, or is she distracting herself with trifles? I can imagine she won't see those things as trifles because she seems to have lost the plot.

I think it would be best if just one of you approaches her in a calm and gentle manner.

And it might not be something that can be fixed in one session. Go in quietly, calmly. Don't try for too much. Think of her as a very difficult horse.

Good luck.
 
I think your YO doesn't want to be a YO anymore. She rather look out her window to see pristine fields. Which, isn't impossible with horses on them, but can be unlikely. Even with the tarmac, it sounds like she just wants to enjoy her property without the "mess" or maintenance that horses create.

For whatever reason she won't just kick people out and close up shop (might feel slightly guilty or even unsure if she's been a YO a long time - it's what she knows). Instead she charges all of these extras to make it worthwhile for her. If she's doing the YO thing, then she might as well have control and make some money. She might not care anymore and is just doing it her way. If people leave on their own, so be it.

I wouldn't be shocked if a YO just reaches a burn out point. Could be a bit of a controlling type in that she wants control of what goes on since it's her property and doesn't trust others to care for it or follow the rules, so she takes it into her own hands.

This is one of the many (many!) reasons why I wouldn't be a YO. Too controlling and perfectionist about things. Especially things that are mine that I've spent my money on. No one cares for your (speaking in general "you" terms here) stuff/land like you do. Even if they do, you still worry because that's the type of neurotic personality that you are! I'll drive myself nuts, but I'm not forcing my anal behaviors on others ?
 
LL the liveries had meeting and we have agreed to try and work round her. I like your idea of treating her like a diffifulct horse - we said we wuld treat her like a mad neighbour - nothing to do with us but just around a lot. We are trying to find ways to not take it personally. We have put matting and old carpet down for the footsore horse. We have created an assisted livery whatsapp group so if anyone needs anything doing we post it on there. So basically no-one is going to ask her for ANYTHING EVER. That should deal with 'extras'. We have all separately and politely told her we are budgeting/ looking carefully at finances etc and do not want anything doing with the horses we have not asked for and if she thinks we have overlooked something please let us know.

We are going to arrange the farrier when we want him and pay him direct. He's fine with that. She claims it is to stop him coing more times tha he needs to but we already always let each other know when anyone has the farrier or vet or physio or massage person etc etc coming so people can co-ordinate.

So we shall see how that goes.
 
Oh heavens she sounds nuts! I am a yard owner who does extras and my policy is if they ask me to do something then they pay but if I do something like take a rug off off my own back then I don't charge. I try to keep things like that to a minimum as I have 26 horses to do myself a mixture of full and assisted DIY- I don't have time to do things that no one asked for!
 
CC I think you are right. She does not want us. She used to have a string of show jumpers and bred her own etc, Now she is a YO with no horses ar all. I don't know what happened to make that change but I do not think she likes having liveries. I have no idea whether she can afford to get rid of us all. I doubt it but also I don't think she cares when people leave. But I hope that if we present a united front and don't allow her to pick us off one at a time then we will force her hand: she closes to all liveries or she deals with us fairly. We are tidy, organised, pay on time, get on well. There is ZERO bitchiness. No-one goes to her complaining. When we have issues we raise them politely and we are reaaonable in trying to find solutions. She has been a YO long enough to know that she could get a lot worse than us if she kicks us off.

She is definitely getting worse and I do think she is mentally unbalanced and things are building up for her. She was always controlling and obsessional but within normalish limits. But she has got much much worse. So her losing it completely and throwing everyone off is a definite risk I think. So my plan is to buy something. But not to rush into that. I've put alerts on various farm/smallholding/land sites and we shall see what happens.
 
Hi me again. Well things were better for a while but it seems she was just biding her time.

At the end of August we had almost no extras. The whatsapp group worked a treat and no-one asked for anything at all. Also we were all alert to her heading off to do a job and we would just say 'x is coming up in a minute to do that' or 'oh I'm bringing in for x today, I'll fetch in now then'. Between us somone is there most of the time and we just headed 'extras' off at the pass. There were a few random extras on August bills and we presented a united front and all refused to pay. We did it individually so she did not feel backed into a corner - but we all did it and she backed down. She has also given up trying to control the farrier as he did not want that anyway. So all good.

But yesterday she sent round an email saying livery fees are going up by £40 a month. Effective immediately so all the bills due at the end of this month will be at the new price and we all need to adjust our direct debits or standing orders. It's a huge %age increase. I could almost live with that but she has also said turn out in winter will be 1 hour a day. Again I sympathised with that (to an extent) and I am aware that some livery yards don't have winter turn out at all or just offer brief 'leg stretch' turn out in a trash paddock. But I assumed she meant these were the turn out arrangements for the worst of the winter when the field were wet/ muddy/ trashed. But in fact by 'winter' she means from when the clocks change! That's 6 months of the year. That is not something I can tolerate.

So now what? Nothing has come up in terms of land. All the livery yards round here are full. I could move further away and go on full livery but am afraid of going from frying pan to fire and of losing even more control of how I care for my horses. After all THIS yard owner seemed fine when I looked around! There are a couple of people on Mon-Fri livery here and their horses literally get 20 minutes turnout a day while she mucks out. That's it. That owners are furious but also stuck. She uses a tiny poorly paddock right by the barn to turn out horses she is mucking out, one at a time, just while she is mucking out. She does not take them to the fields they are allocated and is quite open about the fact that she can't be bothered as the fields are further away. She does not seem to give a monkeys about the horses. I don't think she even likes horses.

Any advice? I sometimes feel like selling up and just giving it all up. The stress just seems not worth it at times and so many yards seem to have nutty yard owners. I feel so trapped. The absolute ideal is my own land but where from? My alerts have come to nothing. Everything is just grazing land for agricultural, not equestrian use.
 
Not much consolation, but legally I’d be surprised if the charge increase could be enforced without Prior notice given, it’s effectively a renegotiation of your contract so needs notice I’d have thought? I certainly wouldn’t be adjusting it for this month!
Sounds like you all need out of there and there will be a mass exodus, sorry you’re facing this. Stay positive, something will turn up. Which area are you in OP?
 
I feel for you. I was briefly on a yard with a self appointed yard manager who was just terrible.
Just a thought, have you rung around any local studs, hunt, racing breaking/schooling etc yards. Some will have a few liveries but not advertise. If you have an easy going pony who doesn't wreck anything and doesn't mind others coming and going from the yard or field you could be in with a shot of finding somewhere with space to fit you in. Studs would be my first port of call. They tend to have huge fields and an extra 1 wouldn't make much difference. Even if it isn't permanent, but gives you the winter to take stock and find somewhere more suitable for your needs.
 
Has she said what would happen if you (as in all the liveries) say that you have't had enough notice about the raise in the rates? Has she said either pay up or leave by the end of the September?
 
Good suggestions above. I'd get the heck out of there. You might have to do some digging though. Or even turn your horse out onto a field for a bit (a place with no facilities) while you look/wait for somewhere with an opening. I'd really be digging around to get out of there.

Some full liveries aren't bad. You lose some control, yes, but if it is a good place, you won't worry so much.
 
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