Yard owner banning other peoples hay/haylage?

At my yard we are allowed to buy in our own hay if we want, but can only store 10 bales at a time due to storage issues. This IMO is fair, I buy off the livery yard as it is far easier and always good quality (tested for quality etc and stored well). I had considered buying elsewhere but by the time you factor in that most suppliers round here won't supple such a small amount you are left with two options; A) go and get you own (which costs money to transport) or B) get together with some of the other liveries to buy a bigger amount and spilt it (which raises the age of owing money issue plus you have to check quality yourself).
Overall it is much easier and cheaper to buy the yard hay. I like not having to have hay in my car anymore!
 
Their Yard, their rules. Simples. You can always take your business and hard earned cash elsewhere to a Yard to suit you, whch has the flexibility you require. Their loss:)
 
I think the biggest thing is here is that they have suddenly been told they are too buy off YO.

As per my post above... whats written into the livery contract. If they have not written into it a clause such as "we are at right to change the livery contract as we see fit without discussion with anyone else", they then would have to buy the haylage.

If such a clause is NOT included within the contract the YO cannot simply make the rules up as they go along.
 
TBH, the hay in most cases hasn't been cut yet, so it's not without notice, is it?
And of course they can change the rules of contract, they don't need to consult anybody, just need to inform people - there is always an option of leaving the yard, isn't there?
 
Bosworth said:
I was a yard owner, had lots of liveries and managed my land very very carefully to provide fantastic weed free grazing all year round as well as good quality forage. I paid the mortgage and rates on the farm, so it was mine to store what I wanted to. My liveries had to buy forage from me, I would not allow any other hay / haylage to be brought in as I did not want to introduce weeds from someone elses land and in my costs I costed in all the maintenance of the grazing and hay/haylage. I weed sprayed, I rolled, I fenced, I fertilised, and I remove all the muck that is the by product of horses eating the hay/haylage So in order to cover those costs I needed to sell my hay/haylage.

Why should I provide storage for my liveries to keep their hay? if I were to do that then surely I would be totally within my rights to charge liveries muck disposal as their horses were not contributing to the costs of the maintenance and disposal.

Some liveries really do live in a dream world where livery yards are their for their convenience. At the end of the day a livery yard is a business, their rules are what counts, not the feeling of injustice that some liveries seem to have. If you don;t like the rules, buy your own place and have liveries, I can assure you you would soon change your views.

I no longer have liveries, the minority spoil everything for the majority and financially it is simply not worth the hassle. I had some fantastic liveries, and some utter whinging muppets, who made all the other liveries lives hell.

If you do not like the rules, leave.
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Totally agree with this. So many times I've heard YO's stop offering DIY because its a PITA.
I've had my own place and quite frankly it was time consuming and costly. I much prefer being on a yard where someone else is responsible for the day to day running.
 
Unless there is such a clause as I have stated before, you cannot alter a contract unless by agreement of both parties.
 
wench said:
Unless there is such a clause as I have stated before, you cannot alter a contract unless by agreement of both parties.
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Yes, but the YO can give notice to terminate the contract and offer a new one, with the addition of the hay ''condition'' :)
The liveries might not agree, and leave - simples.
 
Bosworth said:
I was a yard owner, had lots of liveries and managed my land very very carefully to provide fantastic weed free grazing all year round as well as good quality forage. I paid the mortgage and rates on the farm, so it was mine to store what I wanted to. My liveries had to buy forage from me, I would not allow any other hay / haylage to be brought in as I did not want to introduce weeds from someone elses land and in my costs I costed in all the maintenance of the grazing and hay/haylage. I weed sprayed, I rolled, I fenced, I fertilised, and I remove all the muck that is the by product of horses eating the hay/haylage So in order to cover those costs I needed to sell my hay/haylage.

Why should I provide storage for my liveries to keep their hay? if I were to do that then surely I would be totally within my rights to charge liveries muck disposal as their horses were not contributing to the costs of the maintenance and disposal.

Some liveries really do live in a dream world where livery yards are their for their convenience. At the end of the day a livery yard is a business, their rules are what counts, not the feeling of injustice that some liveries seem to have. If you don;t like the rules, buy your own place and have liveries, I can assure you you would soon change your views.

I no longer have liveries, the minority spoil everything for the majority and financially it is simply not worth the hassle. I had some fantastic liveries, and some utter whinging muppets, who made all the other liveries lives hell.

If you do not like the rules, leave.
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This. Bosworth, you saved me typing. :)
 
martlin said:
Yes, but the YO can give notice to terminate the contract and offer a new one, with the addition of the hay ''condition'' :)
The liveries might not agree, and leave - simples.
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This! Livery is not a tenancy with the 'rights' (and responsibilities) that come with it, it is a simple licence.

The YO may need to reissue the licence contract to liveries if they arent happy to just accept the hay clause, but they are quite able to do this. Anyone who doesnt want to sign up is free to go elsewhere and will benefit from any notice terms in the contract.

There is so little money in DIY livery and increased hassle/responsibility for YOs under the revised animal welfare rules in terms of their responsibility for the welfare of the animals on their yard that many have chosen to exit offering DIY livery.

If liveries dont want theirs to follow the exodus and retain choice of yards, then stamping feet and spouting about 'rights' doesnt help, much better to sit down and discuss with YO why the rule is being introduced, maybe agree exception for poorly horses or those on special diet, and maybe some system of testing the home forage so everyone is happy they know the nutritional content.

Given the level of business rates etc I suspect many yards would not make a penny if they couldnt make use of the hay they could take off the land. If they did have to buy in later in the year, that was done at cost. If they could not use the hay and make some money that way then they would have to charge liveries either more on their weekly DIY cost (to replace that income) or charge for the storage of the brought in hay (since they are paying a large business rate bill (which is calculated per square foot!) on the storage facility.

Its up to the client to choose, but some way round the business has to remain viable in a time of increased costs. It is not the YOs responsibility to subsidise our hobbies...
 
Livery is nothing to do with housing law. However, a livery contract is a legally binding document. If it says YO will provide X Y and Z for £1 a week, then this is what must happen!
 
Bosworth said:
I was a yard owner, had lots of liveries and managed my land very very carefully to provide fantastic weed free grazing all year round as well as good quality forage. I paid the mortgage and rates on the farm, so it was mine to store what I wanted to. My liveries had to buy forage from me, I would not allow any other hay / haylage to be brought in as I did not want to introduce weeds from someone elses land and in my costs I costed in all the maintenance of the grazing and hay/haylage. I weed sprayed, I rolled, I fenced, I fertilised, and I remove all the muck that is the by product of horses eating the hay/haylage So in order to cover those costs I needed to sell my hay/haylage.

Why should I provide storage for my liveries to keep their hay? if I were to do that then surely I would be totally within my rights to charge liveries muck disposal as their horses were not contributing to the costs of the maintenance and disposal.

Some liveries really do live in a dream world where livery yards are their for their convenience. At the end of the day a livery yard is a business, their rules are what counts, not the feeling of injustice that some liveries seem to have. If you don;t like the rules, buy your own place and have liveries, I can assure you you would soon change your views.

I no longer have liveries, the minority spoil everything for the majority and financially it is simply not worth the hassle. I had some fantastic liveries, and some utter whinging muppets, who made all the other liveries lives hell.

If you do not like the rules, leave.
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Agree with this ^^
 
The livery contract is a legally binding document but be realistic. The land belongs to the owner, if they want to change the rules they will. Do you honestly think that telling a landowner they're in the wrong legally is going to get a livery their own way?

Sorry but the options are either get on with it or move on. Suing a landowner isn't the way to go. A conversation around a table might actually benefit all concerned far more than ineffective legal action!
 
My barns are set up for me, I would be pushed for room if I had to allocate a space, what do people get? 10'? That is say 10' of floor space, that I could have stacked to the roof with bales, waste of space.

Just one of the many reasons why I wouldn't take DIY even if they paid me the same as Full Board. I don't want them. The set up of my property is not suitable, if I had a separate yard, barns and entrance then yes I'd let them get on with it.
 
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Achinghips said:
Their Yard, their rules. Simples. You can always take your business and hard earned cash elsewhere to a Yard to suit you, whch has the flexibility you require. Their loss:)
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...or gain as I see it :)

If their ways don't suit you, and vice versa, then chances are that it is not going to be a harmonious relationship anyway, best not to even start it. :)
 
Having read a few posts on here - some for and some against, I feel I have to ask why is it that livery yards think they are doing the horse owner a favour by being a livery yard, without the horse owner livery yards would not exist whether they are making a profit or not, the horse owners are paying for something, otherwise the livery yards would all close down seeing as they are not charities.

Horse owners also pay a lot for their privilege of being a horse owner and therefore also deserve a decent return for their monies, one would not go in to a supermarket and just accept "bad standards" for their money they would complain and the supermarket would do their best to improve the situation, why then when it comes to a livery yard is this not the case, most of the time with the horse owner just moving to another yard because raising the issue with the YO wouldnt be worth losing their life over.

My point for the above is the question of weeds from seeds brought in by hay, seeds get blown in the wind and will land and grow if the soil suits, fields will get chunned up by horses feet, it is something that happens when the ground is wet but the land does recover, some horses are well behaved and some are not - they are horses, but some horse owners will be asked to leave because their horse broke through the fence yet some liveries who are absolute bitches and sh****t stirrers but will stay because they are friends with the YO. What happened to the good old days when the colour of your money and the fact you paid on time was more important than what your face looked like.
 
putasocinit said:
Having read a few posts on here - some for and some against, I feel I have to ask why is it that livery yards think they are doing the horse owner a favour by being a livery yard, without the horse owner livery yards would not exist whether they are making a profit or not, the horse owners are paying for something, otherwise the livery yards would all close down seeing as they are not charities.

Horse owners also pay a lot for their privilege of being a horse owner and therefore also deserve a decent return for their monies, one would not go in to a supermarket and just accept "bad standards" for their money they would complain and the supermarket would do their best to improve the situation, why then when it comes to a livery yard is this not the case, most of the time with the horse owner just moving to another yard because raising the issue with the YO wouldnt be worth losing their life over.

My point for the above is the question of weeds from seeds brought in by hay, seeds get blown in the wind and will land and grow if the soil suits, fields will get chunned up by horses feet, it is something that happens when the ground is wet but the land does recover, some horses are well behaved and some are not - they are horses, but some horse owners will be asked to leave because their horse broke through the fence yet some liveries who are absolute bitches and sh****t stirrers but will stay because they are friends with the YO. What happened to the good old days when the colour of your money and the fact you paid on time was more important than what your face looked like.
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Actually, there is much more to it than colour of your money. At the end of the day, the yard is also my home, I have to live here and am not prepared to put up with people I don't like.
 
If you want to compare yards to a supermarket its quite simple. If you don't like aspects of a supermarket you simply take your business elsewhere, management will still have someone else's business in your place. Same goes for yards. I don't like the prices waitrose charge, therefore I shop elsewhere rather than complain about it. And agree with martlin, a yard is usually someone's home.
 
There is a fundamental problem with yard owners making their own hay . If they make a dud batch they are stuck with it and therefore their liverys are too.You are either in the hay business or you are in the livery business. The argument that the bought in hay will introduce weeds doesnt really stack up. If the yard hay is good and is being sold for a fair price ,it should be almost impossible for the livery to get other hay at a better price . Any bought in hay will have additional transport and merchanting costs.The real reason for not wanting bought in hay is generaly to create a monopoly and to ensure that the YO can get rid of their hay regardless of quality (or rather ,lack of).
 
wench said:
I think the biggest thing is here is that they have suddenly been told they are too buy off YO.

As per my post above... whats written into the livery contract. If they have not written into it a clause such as "we are at right to change the livery contract as we see fit without discussion with anyone else", they then would have to buy the haylage.

If such a clause is NOT included within the contract the YO cannot simply make the rules up as they go along.
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Sorry i think thats only part of the problem, the op states the forage is poor quality as well, that is a big issue for anyone who cares about the health of there horses, and as said previously, if the quality is good id be happy to use a yard owners stuff, but if its rubbish, then id leave if it was insisted on, i can do without the vet bills and the worry.
For the yard owners who dont like liveries, why do you have a livery yard ?
You have a business and are providing a service, and part of any service is based on customer satisfaction, a good livery yard, that provides good quality forage has nothing to worry about, your clients will appreciate that they dont need to have the hastle of sourcing and getting the stuff to the yard.
For people who have produced poor quality forage, do you think because a person liveries with you, that they should risk their horses health eating poor quality forage simply because you've produced it ? people work hard and pay sometimes hefty fees for a good livery arrangement, but its not worth it if the horse ends up ill through accepting poor forage.
I have been in a position where i was asked by a yo what my problem was because i wouldnt feed haylage that was covered in blue mould and stank of fish :eek::eek: any yard owner that needs to ask that question, is in the wrong business and shouldnt be running a yard, some people see it as a way of making money simply because they have the land to do it, and know that people are tied to areas close by, so find it difficult to move on.
By the way ive got my own place, im not on a livery yard, but feel sorry for others who are sometimes forced to compromise on their standards
 
A customer who speaks to the shop owner and even complains is a better customer than that one who takes their business elsewhere, how can the world be it DIY livery yards or nursery schools or the shop on the corner improve if we all keep our mouths shut for fear of offending and take our business elsewhere.

Whether the livery yard is your home or not is besides the point, if you started doing livery and it was also your home then you must have thought about the implications first. If you provide a good friendly, honest, encouraging (pony club - little ones to take over from us big ones when we retire), service provided environment then there wont be bitching, bullying and tittle tailing and the yard sh...t stirrer will be dealt a severe blow and sent to bed.

Sadly this is not the case because the retired DIY livery owner got fed up because their best friend the sh...t stirrer took advantage of their friendship and made all the other liveries unhappy and they left and the YO had to take up extra work because they couldnt afford the tractor anymore but at the end of the day it was the DIY liveries fault.

Mike007 has hit the nail on the head, exactly what I was trying to say about the hay. Martlin would not feed bad hay, there are a lot of livery yards that will, I personally know of a livery yard in Richmond who refused to give its liveries any other haylage even though the haylage they were being supplied was wet with white mould and you wouldnt feed it to pigs, we had to pull out the edible bits to make up haynets. Yes this was a competition yard as well.

I fully understand the reason behind storage and rates for square foot etc and I would include the rates in the price for livery as well as the cost for harrowing etc etc, but I wouldnt take it out on my liveries by making them feel you are doing them a favour by being a livery yard and if they don't like it then just leave and go down the road, what kind of a reputation does that give horse owners to the general public, our children and theirs.
 
wench said:
I think the biggest thing is here is that they have suddenly been told they are too buy off YO.

If such a clause is NOT included within the contract the YO cannot simply make the rules up as they go along.
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Agree with the first bit. It's amazing how few yards offer contracts. What the YO wants, the YO does, tough on the liveries, I find.

martlin said:
Actually, if our own hay is not good enough for horses, I just feed it to the cattle and buy in other stuff for liveries and my own horses...
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Definitely a minority. I got screamed at for daring to ask what the odd seeds were that were in their thousands in the hay and I've been through swathes of crap quality hay and had to throw half of it out because it was horrible. You're stuffed if the YO won't buy in decent hay if his was left baled in heavy rain and has gone funny, for example.

I've been on one Yard where we had to buy our own hay. It was a PITA, but at least we could ensure it was good. In a captive market, you have no choice and are screwed if it's rubbish stuff.
 
I don't do DIY, so not quite sure what I am arguing here :) but anyway:
You can't please everybody, and I am perfectly aware that the way my yard runs won't suit all people, but I don't make compromises, because then it wouldn't suit me. And if it wouldn't suit me, I would start to resent the very people my business relies upon. As it is, I only accept for livery horses who's owners I think I can get on with, if not like and socialize with :) If I make a mistake in my judgement, I simply hand the person their notice to leave and replace them with another client.
I'm happy, my liveries are mostly happy and if they are not happy about something, they can come and talk to me in the first instance, and if no solution can be found, they are more than welcome to find another yard.
 
Martlin you are a minority as far as liveries can go and talk to you and see what happens at the end, however you do have some liveries which will no doubt fund your hobby and dont try and tell me they dont because you wouldnt have liveries otherwise, but I would find it quite worrying being scared all the time if you suddenly fell out with me and that is the whole point of my original post incl the hay.

We are not all the same and will not like everybody we meet in our life and that is the way we were all made, but with a decent attitude we can try to understand and appreciate the difference of opinions and ideas that we all have, however too many people are given notice because they did not suit the YO, so I go back to what happened to the colour of ones money and how promptly they paid. I for e.g. may pay on time, be the cleanest, most helpful livery you could ever meet but because you and I do not agree on Bill Clinton and my horse neighs at 6am and his stable is right by your bedroom window, then I must be given notice, hang on a minute!!!!
 
We HAVE to buy hay/haylege, hard feed and bedding from my yard but it's all great quality, cheap as chips and he drops it off IN your tackroom. :cool: very very common around here, I've never bought anything but hard feed in (and that was only on one yard)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martlin
Actually, if our own hay is not good enough for horses, I just feed it to the cattle and buy in other stuff for liveries and my own horses...


Mike007 said:
A good way of doing things but I fear you are in a minority. :)
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Really?! Everyone I know works that way, they either feed to their own stock or they sell it on.
 
I think you will find Mike007 is referring to you feeding it to the cows and not insisting it continues to be fed to the horses which other livery yards will do so as to try and make a profit on their hay because they just dont make any money at all doing livery, poor things, life is so hard!
 
Our yard encourages us to use their hay but at the same time don't mind if get our own in as DIY.

I wouldn't mind using a yard's hay, so long as it was good quality. Saves me the hassle of ordering and arranging delivery!
 
annaellie said:
I have been on a number of yards were you could only buy hay/straw from the yard. All yards that had this didn't even make there own they bought in and then added x amount.
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Yes this is called good business practice, what I objected to at one yard was that they put the price up in spite of the fact that the incoming haylage was same price as it had been for three years. The price of hay did go up, but to be honest most people could have managed with the haylage which was dry and fibrous.
I did mention this at a livery meeting.........my comment went down like a lead balloon, I did ask the YM privately how much the hay had gone up and what percentage of the total bill was accounted for by hay, still waiting for a reply!
It was a big yard and it would have been impossible for people to buy their own in [storage, theft etc]
 
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