Yet another car accident

[nicolenlolly]

might sound like a long shot but if we all write into the letters pages of H&H then one of us must get published. If we all ask people to put on their facebook as a start something about slowing down for horses and that we are looking for someone high profile to take it on, you never know, if you dont ask/try you certainly wont get and someone might just see it and come on board. As soon as you get one, others will follow. We must not give up on this though, I remember when I was younger nearly every car had a "I slow down for horses" sticker so there was obviously something that happened then, we just need to re-ignite the flame to get people thinking. My H&H arrived today and there is a letter about driving lessons not including anything about horses so we can go off the back of that as well!

 

[jeremyclarksonroar]

As awful as this accident is and I feel for the owner I really do, has anyone stopped for a minute to ask how the driver of the car is? Roof ripped off the car and head injuries does not sound as though the woman would have gotten off lightly. Also does anyone actually know that she was speeding? little harsh to be judge, jury and executioner so soon.

As much as I like a B road blast and believe me I do, I always slow down and give the riders a wide berth in my V12 motor but never get as much as a smile or a wave in return, what's happened to basic manners? I don't have to slow down but choose too just in case the horse (or rider) damages my car and would appreciate a gesture in return (as long as it's a polite one).

On the first page there was lady who posted about having a 4 year old on a country lane on a lead rein...... WTF was she thinking...... she must be a few chromosomes short of a full set. Personally my kids never leave the paddock on my private land

Jezza x

 

[china]

As awful as this accident is and I feel for the owner I really do, has anyone stopped for a minute to ask how the driver of the car is? Roof ripped off the car and head injuries does not sound as though the woman would have gotten off lightly. Also does anyone actually know that she was speeding? little harsh to be judge, jury and executioner so soon.

As much as I like a B road blast and believe me I do, I always slow down and give the riders a wide berth in my V12 motor but never get as much as a smile or a wave in return, what's happened to basic manners? I don't have to slow down but choose too just in case the horse (or rider) damages my car and would appreciate a gesture in return (as long as it's a polite one).

On the first page there was lady who posted about having a 4 year old on a country lane on a lead rein...... WTF was she thinking...... she must be a few chromosomes short of a full set. Personally my kids never leave the paddock on my private land

Jezza x

Yes, Really they are lucky to have survived having over half a tonne of horse on their lap. I am working with police horsewatch team atm to campain for Think horse. This will be educating riders young and old on road manners and road safety aswell as working with drivers on how to drive safely around horses as lets be honest, drivers are just as much as risk of our half tonne machines as we are of them. I am currently in the process of collecting data on riders wearing hi viz and what sort of riding they do and will be doing the same for non horsey drivers. and get there point of view of riders on the road and how it can be improved. Support on this side of things would be hugely appreciated. I am not saying horse riders are perfect, far from it and some can be dam right rude! So alot of educating and work needs to be done on both sides. I cannot vouch and cover for all areas, but i will be working over the south west so i hope there is improvement over the next year down here.

 

[blueneonrainbow]

Have to agree with jeremyclarksonroar. None of us saw it we don't know what happened do to immediately dump the blame on the driver is ridiculous. How do we know the horse didn't bolt and collide with the car for example? I feel for the girls and the horses but for everyone to insinuate it's the drivers fault is wrong and my sympathies are with the driver too.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Must say it’s also down to the riders to help themselves – the amount of ignorant riders who fail to thank or even nod when I’ve stopped/slowed right down for them is unbelievable

Ditto this. Riders must be polite if we are to get drivers on side. Manners cost nothing and ignorance costs lives. Ignorant riders will indeed incite younger aggressive drivers to speed past horses. As a horse owner and rider I know it riles me when I do not get a thank-you slowing for horses!

I had a hi viz tabard printed on the back(for under £6 via ebay) 'Thank-you for slowing down', that way if I miss nodding at someone or cannot take my hand off the rein to wave the driver still gets a thank-you and those who don't slow down hopefully 'get the message'!

 

[reduce-speed-limits]

the 60 year old lady is in hospital with head trauma and she very nearly died she was speeding the police are not even saying she may not have been that has never been in the question after hitting the horse and removing her roof she travelled another quarter of a mile before hitting a wooden post splitting the engine she is very to walk away with her life

i was there i removed the second horse and took the tack of josie( the horse that was killed)

 

[reduce-speed-limits]

i would like to thank every one for best wishes and will pass them on

 

[reduce-speed-limits]

Have to agree with jeremyclarksonroar. None of us saw it we don't know what happened do to immediately dump the blame on the driver is ridiculous. How do we know the horse didn't bolt and collide with the car for example? I feel for the girls and the horses but for everyone to insinuate it's the drivers fault is wrong and my sympathies are with the driver too.

the horses were walking side by side on a straight road she hit them from behind how the second horse didn't get hit is beyond me but were thankful for that we are waiting for the police report and even all of us who was there are not saying she did by being an idiot she may very well had a medical or mechanical problem until the report is released we can only guess but the fact still is to many people still drive to fast on country lanes

and i agree with theres alot of ignorant riders it was something we always said manners cost nothing

 

[perfect11s]

the 60 year old lady is in hospital with head trauma and she very nearly died she was speeding the police are not even saying she may not have been that has never been in the question after hitting the horse and removing her roof she travelled another quarter of a mile before hitting a wooden post splitting the engine she is very to walk away with her life

i was there i removed the second horse and took the tack of josie( the horse that was killed)

would the police estermate how fast she was going ??? sounds like some speed to travel a further 1/4 mile after a serious impact ... hey poor you having to deal with the carnage best wishes to you and your friends...

 

[Tinypony]

Sometimes people don't stop because they are in shock. She may not have even been trying to stop.
I ran into the back of an old lady's car some years back (long story as to why...). She stopped, and I and another driver got out and ran up to her to see if she was OK. She sat staring straight ahead as we tapped on her window beside her and also her windscreen, then she just started the car up, swerved out fast nearly running into me, and drove off! I found her at a garage a couple of miles on, where she had stopped to ask them to investigate the noise her car was making. They were just trying to explain to her that she'd been in a collision...

 

[Flame_]

Also does anyone actually know that she was speeding?

She probably wasn't speeding. It is perfectly legal to tear arse round windy lanes at up to 60mph which could have a horse walking around any one of the bends.

It is pretty hard to kill a horse if you are passing it at say 15mph and it leaps in front of you. If you are passing it at 30, still not speeding, and it spooks, you are a hell of a lot more likely to kill it. The 60mph speed limits, even the 30mph ones tbh, do not protect horses and riders on the road at all.

Motorists are not obliged to pass horses at truly safe speeds, or even to drive on country lanes at truly safe speeds IMO, as far as the law and current speed limits are concerned. As vulnerable road users we are relying on all motorists education, conscientiousness and good will, and seriously, how stupid is that when we know how many nutters are on the road and how many are actually against horses being there?

 

[reduce-speed-limits]

She probably wasn't speeding. It is perfectly legal to tear arse round windy lanes at up to 60mph which could have a horse walking around any one of the bends.

It is pretty hard to kill a horse if you are passing it at say 15mph and it sits on your bonnet. If you are passing it at 30, still not speeding, and it spooks, you are a hell of a lot more likely to kill it. The 60mph speed limits, even the 30mph ones tbh, do not protect horses and riders on the road at all.

Motorists are not obliged to pass horses at truly safe speeds, or even to drive on country lanes at truly safe speeds IMO, as far as the law and current speed limits are concerned. As vulnerable road users we are relying on all motorists education, conscientiousness and good will, and seriously, how stupid is that when we know how many nutters are on the road and how many are actually against horses being there?

this is the point i'm trying to get across it is traumatic for every thing we are going threw but i still hold no ill will to the woman in the car and neither do the others it's just time speed limits were changed on country lanes most country lanes are not safe to drive at 60 mph but still because the limit is that people try driving at that and the accident are the result

 

[perfect11s]

She probably wasn't speeding. It is perfectly legal to tear arse round windy lanes at up to 60mph which could have a horse walking around any one of the bends.

It is pretty hard to kill a horse if you are passing it at say 15mph and it leaps in front of you. If you are passing it at 30, still not speeding, and it spooks, you are a hell of a lot more likely to kill it. The 60mph speed limits, even the 30mph ones tbh, do not protect horses and riders on the road at all.

Motorists are not obliged to pass horses at truly safe speeds, or even to drive on country lanes at truly safe speeds IMO, as far as the law and current speed limits are concerned. As vulnerable road users we are relying on all motorists education, conscientiousness and good will, and seriously, how stupid is that when we know how many nutters are on the road and how many are actually against horses being there?

Sadly true ....personaly
I just have too much invested both in money and emotialy in my horse to risk going out on our roads.. I think you have to be prepared for an accident sooner or later if your going to hack out .... my insructor was involved in a nasty accident many years ago and recently a riding club member's horse was hit by a car and trailer and was lucky her mare was only injured but is now sound but with a horrible scar...

 

[jeremyclarksonroar]

I imagine that the traffic officer who attended the accidents, as well as the ambulance service, main priority was to make sure the injured were being taken care of before transport to hospital. For the officer to speculate what happened would be pretty stupid IMO, until the full report is published I reserve judgement.

 

[soulfull]

I imagine that the traffic officer who attended the accidents, as well as the ambulance service, main priority was to make sure the injured were being taken care of before transport to hospital. For the officer to speculate what happened would be pretty stupid IMO, until the full report is published I reserve judgement.

I agree with this!! My EX was an accident investigator with the police for many years and some of these investigations can take a couple of months before they get all the information together. I'm not sure a full AIU will be done unless there is a possibility the lady may not recover it won't.

Going back 8 years a cost of an investigation like this was astronomical so not taken on lightly

Also agree with Perfect11s I NEVER EVER hack on roads anymore, too me it just isn't worth the risk. Instead I found a yard with off road hacking, and while not ideal too me it is better than the risk of going on roads as they are now

 

[nicolenlolly]

On the first page there was lady who posted about having a 4 year old on a country lane on a lead rein...... WTF was she thinking...... she must be a few chromosomes short of a full set. Personally my kids never leave the paddock on my private land

Jezza x

FYI I don't have any chromosomes missing but thank you for your extremely offensive concern!

Like other people have said, we are not all lucky enough to have vast amounts of space to ride in and have to cross roads to get to bridleways. I feel sorry for your kids that they look at the same boring space when they ride, at least my little one gets out and about...she is always led on a lead rope, has a full bridle and I'm always behind on big cob, she is fine. Next time don't be so judgmental and rude!

 

[jeremyclarksonroar]

Are you not supposed to ride alongside when your riding with a young or inexperienced person? Surely your husband holding the lead rope is not enough. What if the pony rears up? Not a lot your husband can do to prevent that unless he's a bodybuilder and even then he may struggle.

My kids are safe in the paddock/woodland that surround where I live and manage quite nicely. I'd rather them ride safe than be at risk from other road users. When I feel it's time I will allow them out on the road.
My rule is if they're old enough to ride a motorbike on the road then they can ride a horse on it too.

 

[Holly Hocks]

As awful as this accident is and I feel for the owner I really do, has anyone stopped for a minute to ask how the driver of the car is? Roof ripped off the car and head injuries does not sound as though the woman would have gotten off lightly. Also does anyone actually know that she was speeding? little harsh to be judge, jury and executioner so soon.

As much as I like a B road blast and believe me I do, I always slow down and give the riders a wide berth in my V12 motor but never get as much as a smile or a wave in return, what's happened to basic manners? I don't have to slow down but choose too just in case the horse (or rider) damages my car and would appreciate a gesture in return (as long as it's a polite one).

On the first page there was lady who posted about having a 4 year old on a country lane on a lead rein...... WTF was she thinking...... she must be a few chromosomes short of a full set. Personally my kids never leave the paddock on my private land

Jezza x

Well if the roof was ripped off the car, then either the driver hit the animal at some terrific speed, or the Fire Service have done what they love to do and taken the roof off the car.
The speed limit is exactly that - a limit, not a target, you should drive according to the road conditions and the hazards ahead - that is of course if you drive looking beyond the bonnet on your car. Oh, and yes you do have to slow down - you might not get prosecuted for speeding, but if you pass and don't slow down accordingly and you cause an RTC, then you can be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention - there doesn't need to be speed involved for that.

 

[Fii]

I may be wrong, but has'nt the law been changed now, that if you, as a car driver, have an accident involving a cyclist, you are always going to be in the wrong, as you have a duty of care towards a more vunrable (sp) road user??
Why does this not apply to horse riders??

 

[Holly Hocks]

I imagine that the traffic officer who attended the accidents, as well as the ambulance service, main priority was to make sure the injured were being taken care of before transport to hospital. For the officer to speculate what happened would be pretty stupid IMO, until the full report is published I reserve judgement.

The traffic officer's priority would not have been to make sure that the injured were taken care of - that is the job of the ambulance service. The job of the Police is to protect the scene for investigation and to ensure that nobody else gets hurt or further RTCs occur as a result of the road closure/blockage.

 

[Fii]

And also i would just like to point out, these county lanes that we should'nt be riding our horses down, are also the lanes people live on, their garden gates open straight on to them. So it is'nt just riders who are in danger, but people and their families and pets, who have lived there all their lives.
Now the roads are a lot more busier life is just not the same, maybe they should stay in their houses..... or move!!

 

[Holly Hocks]

I may be wrong, but has'nt the law been changed now, that if you, as a car driver, have an accident involving a cyclist, you are always going to be in the wrong, as you have a duty of care towards a more vunrable (sp) road user??
Why does this not apply to horse riders??

It does apply Fii. The Road Traffic Act states that " If owing to the presence of a vehicle on a road an accident occurs which causes injury or damage to
:A person - other than the drive of that vehicle or an animal, other than an animal being carried in that vehicle - (definition of animal as far as I can remember is dog, goat, sheep, pig, horse, cattle, horse, ass or mule), then it is a reportable collision.

My OH dealt with an RTA involving a cyclist when he was on traffic - the car wasn't speeding, however the driver was prosecuted for driving without due care and attention based on the fact that he could not stop in time.

 

[jeremyclarksonroar]

Well if the roof was ripped off the car, then either the driver hit the animal at some terrific speed, or the Fire Service have done what they love to do and taken the roof off the car.
The speed limit is exactly that - a limit, not a target, you should drive according to the road conditions and the hazards ahead - that is of course if you drive looking beyond the bonnet on your car. Oh, and yes you do have to slow down - you might not get prosecuted for speeding, but if you pass and don't slow down accordingly and you cause an RTC, then you can be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention - there doesn't need to be speed involved for that.

Speed limits are for the roads and there for good reason, private airfields/tracks are the place to go if you want to drive like a lunatic. I always drive to the conditions of the road and always will do.

Hypothetical - If travelling on a country road at 60 (speed limit)and you come to a corner, slow down to say 40 and negotiate successfully only to be met by two riders riding side by side just on the exit of said corner then what can be done to avoid the riders? Surely not a lot but you're within the speed limit so are driving with due care and attention, said riders should be at fault for riding side by side on the exit of a corner, but that I doubt as it will always be the drivers fault in the eyes of some.

Both sides of the story need to be listened to before any conclusions are made, leave the police to their enquiries and I'm sure we'll find out what happened in time.

Not everything in life is as black and white as some people seem to believe

 

[welshcob*]

How awful, my heart goes out to all involved, RIP lovely horsey! x

 

[jeremyclarksonroar]

The traffic officer's priority would not have been to make sure that the injured were taken care of - that is the job of the ambulance service. The job of the Police is to protect the scene for investigation and to ensure that nobody else gets hurt or further RTCs occur as a result of the road closure/blockage.

Not if said officer is first on scene, what would you rather they do? - preserve the scene or assist the person/people who are injured. Personally if it was me I'd rather that they dealt with the injured and worry about what caused the crash until the road is clear of other emergency vehicles, from that view point you will get a better assessment of what took place than with other vehicles blocking a usually unrestricted view.

Also the speed at which the car was travelling could have been due to the fact the woman was unconcious after the collision, can you control a car in that state? I don't think so, she could have just continued to accelerate after due to the fact her foot was on the accelerator.

 

[Flame_]

Hypothetical - If travelling on a country road at 60 (speed limit)and you come to a corner, slow down to say 40 and negotiate successfully only to be met by two riders riding side by side just on the exit of said corner then what can be done to avoid the riders? Surely not a lot but you're within the speed limit so are driving with due care and attention, said riders should be at fault for riding side by side on the exit of a corner, but that I doubt as it will always be the drivers fault in the eyes of some.


Not everything in life is as black and white as some people seem to believe

That is pretty black and white to me. If the car took the blind corner at 20, not 40 it would be able to stop in time before hitting the hazard around the corner, which incidentally could be my pony pair carriage which is two horses width across and which has every right to be there without someone going into the back of it. Clearly the driver's fault.

However it would help if the general country lane limit was 40 not 60 so drivers would automatically slow to more like 30 for corners.

 

[Fii]

Speed limits are for the roads and there for good reason, private airfields/tracks are the place to go if you want to drive like a lunatic. I always drive to the conditions of the road and always will do.

Hypothetical - If travelling on a country road at 60 (speed limit)and you come to a corner, slow down to say 40 and negotiate successfully only to be met by two riders riding side by side just on the exit of said corner then what can be done to avoid the riders? Surely not a lot but you're within the speed limit so are driving with due care and attention, said riders should be at fault for riding side by side on the exit of a corner, but that I doubt as it will always be the drivers fault in the eyes of some.

Both sides of the story need to be listened to before any conclusions are made, leave the police to their enquiries and I'm sure we'll find out what happened in time.

Not everything in life is as black and white as some people seem to believe

One peace of good advice when driving on country roads is, always expect there to be something on the road around a corner, because sooner or later it will be a ruddy great John Deer tractor, and you WILL come off worse!!
Also many country roads are not classified in their own right, but just lumped together under one speed limit.
So wi'll it may say you can drive at 60mph, it does'nt meen it is safe or sensible to do so!

 

[Holly Hocks]

Speed limits are for the roads and there for good reason, private airfields/tracks are the place to go if you want to drive like a lunatic. I always drive to the conditions of the road and always will do.

Hypothetical - If travelling on a country road at 60 (speed limit)and you come to a corner, slow down to say 40 and negotiate successfully only to be met by two riders riding side by side just on the exit of said corner then what can be done to avoid the riders? Surely not a lot but you're within the speed limit so are driving with due care and attention, said riders should be at fault for riding side by side on the exit of a corner, but that I doubt as it will always be the drivers fault in the eyes of some.

Both sides of the story need to be listened to before any conclusions are made, leave the police to their enquiries and I'm sure we'll find out what happened in time.

Not everything in life is as black and white as some people seem to believe

You can be driving below the speed limit to be convicted or driving without due care and attention as per the RTA below

Section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, as amended by the Road Traffic Act 1991, creates offences of driving without due care and attention and driving without reasonable consideration on a road or public place.

It states:
If a person drives a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or public place, he is guilty of an offence.


No mention of having to be speeding there, Jezza - anyway, welcome to the forum - and if you really love speed, come and have a blast on my TB racer - it beats the adrenalin rush of cars any day!

 

[jeremyclarksonroar]

You can be driving below the speed limit to be convicted or driving without due care and attention as per the RTA below

Section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, as amended by the Road Traffic Act 1991, creates offences of driving without due care and attention and driving without reasonable consideration on a road or public place.

It states:
If a person drives a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or public place, he is guilty of an offence.


No mention of having to be speeding there, Jezza - anyway, welcome to the forum - and if you really love speed, come and have a blast on my TB racer - it beats the adrenalin rush of cars any day!

OK you got me there but you didn't pick up on the fact that the riders were side by side after a corner, one horse I could avoid but two, i'm not so sure, anyway it was a point made hypothetically.

Country roads can be made enjoyable for all without lowering speed limits otherwise you'd spend your life stuck behind said John Deere tractor which, whether a horsey person (especially with the noise, smell etc) or a petrol head, is frustrating.

Oh and thanks for the welcome

 

[Flame_]

OK you got me there but you didn't pick up on the fact that the riders were side by side after a corner, one horse I could avoid but two, i'm not so sure

Arrrrgh. This is exactly the kind of attitude that I cannot stand. What happens when you just about have time to "avoid" a hypothetical one horse but not two, but there is an oncoming car? You'll squeeze between them maybe? Force the other car to stop? You should go round corners slow enough to stop if there is a hazard round them. End of. Police ride two abreast btw, it forces the traffic to give them a little more room and respect.