Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
You'd think regulation of saddle design would be hard to object to on the basis that "my horse prefers a mouthful of metal/to have his mouth strapped shut so it's stable" etc etc ...
Yet another delightful rider..... not..... when will this end?
- Thread starter nikicb
- Start date
You'd think regulation of saddle design would be hard to object to on the basis that "my horse prefers a mouthful of metal/to have his mouth strapped shut so it's stable" etc etc ...
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I can't see it happening, not for a second. This trend makes a fitter like me very unpopular for upper level competition riders!
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
No it won't. But there's no good argument against it, which does rather expose the modern scene for what it is.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Yep, you could easily legislate for the height above the horse's back at the cantle, and depth of blocks. There are other subtle aspects that could still allow leverage but the options would be reduced.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
The rhythm here extends to the mouth-opening...
nettle
Well-Known Member
Well that’s horrible.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Amazing how it's possible to be an elite competitor and also a really bad rider all at the same time.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Correlation or causation...and in which direction one wonders...I know that's harsh and there are much nicer riders, but still, so little truly good/beautiful/sympathetic riding especially if we apply a fundamental understanding of balance and biomechanics.
onemoretime
Well-Known Member
A lot of the blame must surely lie with the judges!
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
There's plenty of blame to go around. I'm also perfectly happy to blame the riders for being the kind of people who are prepared to do what's required for the marks, rosettes, points, prizes. It's not compulsory, after all.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
Actually hes very skilled. He was socking that horse in the mouth every stride on alternate sides and yet to the casual observer he wasnt actually doing very much at all. Takes skill to manage that
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Indeed. Brilliant, in fact, at riding like a malign f*ckwit. It's a skill set I guess...Actually hes very skilled. He was socking that horse in the mouth every stride on alternate sides and yet to the casual observer he wasnt actually doing very much at all. Takes skill to manage that
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Turns out slow motion is *very* revealing about the quality of the movement
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57K views · 738 reactions | Hier sieht man, doch sehr eindrücklich, was man diesen Pferden antut? Ja glaubt irgendjemand ernsthaft, dass diese Bewegungen auch nur im Ansatz korrekt und gesund sind? Richter offenbar schon. DRITTER PLATZ WORLD CUP Zue
Hier sieht man, doch sehr eindrücklich, was man diesen Pferden antut? Ja glaubt irgendjemand ernsthaft, dass diese Bewegungen auch nur im Ansatz korrekt und gesund sind? Richter offenbar schon....
www.facebook.com
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Hideous.
Beausmate
Well-Known Member
What the hell even is that? It's getting to be like "The Big Lick does dressage". Sickening.
Nasicus
Well-Known Member
That horse looks like it's moving in italics.Turns out slow motion is *very* revealing about the quality of the movement
57K views · 738 reactions | Hier sieht man, doch sehr eindrücklich, was man diesen Pferden antut? Ja glaubt irgendjemand ernsthaft, dass diese Bewegungen auch nur im Ansatz korrekt und gesund sind? Richter offenbar schon. DRITTER PLATZ WORLD CUP Zue
Hier sieht man, doch sehr eindrücklich, was man diesen Pferden antut? Ja glaubt irgendjemand ernsthaft, dass diese Bewegungen auch nur im Ansatz korrekt und gesund sind? Richter offenbar schon....
dorsetladette
Well-Known Member
I dont/cant (dont want to) imagine how you'd train that movement.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I'm no advanced rider but it seems to me to simply be that if you keep asking for more and more range of motion but leave the body in a posture where it cannot allow room for that movement to be healthy, for that hind leg to step where you're asking it to, extreme compression of some form or another then you may get this result. The horse has no ability to balance on the diagonal pair. I don't think I could bear to watch the actual test to try and assess it further.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
As someone who has never trained a passage I WILL NOT SPECULATE (ahem) but I would be interested to know if anyone who has could tell us if there is any possible way to train a passage correctly, or even just progressively, and end up with this being the result.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
It certainly revolves around leg activation rather than a sustained shift in balance and increase in amplitude within collection. From what I've seen piaffe and passage achieved without direct activation of the legs is healthier and more correct. Seldom seen I'm sure.
CastlelackSportHorses
Well-Known Member
I was training my last dressage horse to elementary and my coach encourgaged me to use a schooling whip(soft end) to tickle the legs to pick up, then give reward. So tickle/lift/reward and then start adding a click to the lift. All this in halt in hand then progressing to walk/trot.
Horse found it fine, fun and rewarding as he was getting treats, but I can confirm his result was not like the above video thank god!!
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
As someone put it on fb, "it's about time that this industry was required to explain just what is going on".
TheMule
Well-Known Member
That is training it as a circus trick. Which sadly is often done to create piaffe and passage and it is totally incorrect and corner cutting. That’s why most of them piaffe base narrow, with no lowering of the quarters and hardly any lifting of the front legs
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Yep, ground recoil forces and shifting balance are ignored in favour of muscular effort but it's the way so many train the piaffe/passage and certainly what happened when I was in a similar situation to @CastlelackSportHorses. Very very few people talk about it so its no wonder people don't realise.
"When, responding to a touch of the whip, the lower leg impacts too early, the rotation between the upper and lower joints is off synchronization and arthritis is likely to occur between Mt3 and T3. "
scienceofmotion.com
"When, responding to a touch of the whip, the lower leg impacts too early, the rotation between the upper and lower joints is off synchronization and arthritis is likely to occur between Mt3 and T3. "
False Practices 2
If Monsieur de la Gueriniere felt that he had to address the “false practice” issue, it is that already at the eighteen century, trainers focused on the gesture instead of coordinating efficiently the horse physique for the athletic demand of the performa
scienceofmotion.com
CastlelackSportHorses
Well-Known Member
Ah well, horse went to Sweden to do dressage and is most likely dead now.
He loved doing that trick training!
And I dont do dressage anymore so not to worry
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I don't seem to be able to quote, and there will be specific ways to train it but it's about where the horse is, and what needs to develop, and that's balance - increasingly taking weight behind, increasing collection - and then amplitude/cadence for passage specifically.
Compare the image in your mind of a horse in piaffe that could just gently lift into levade (lifting the front legs from the ground completely, not a rear) and then compare with most arena piaffes, piaffe I think being simpler to break down than passage. These are the ultimate expressions of the different approaches. Tickling with a dressage whip isn't a nasty way to train it but it's biomechanically incorrect. Using a whip in a more aggressive way is both nasty and biomechanically incorrect.
Many will throw their hands up at this criticism but it's rooted in understanding healthy movement in the horse and has become lost to the mists of time in most training "camps". @TheMule may have expressed it rather bluntly, but they're right.
Compare the image in your mind of a horse in piaffe that could just gently lift into levade (lifting the front legs from the ground completely, not a rear) and then compare with most arena piaffes, piaffe I think being simpler to break down than passage. These are the ultimate expressions of the different approaches. Tickling with a dressage whip isn't a nasty way to train it but it's biomechanically incorrect. Using a whip in a more aggressive way is both nasty and biomechanically incorrect.
Many will throw their hands up at this criticism but it's rooted in understanding healthy movement in the horse and has become lost to the mists of time in most training "camps". @TheMule may have expressed it rather bluntly, but they're right.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I understand about balance but how do you explain to the horse he needs to lift his feet up in both piaffe and passage if you don’t use extra aids like a whip
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Do you need to use the whip to ask them to lift their feet in any other pace?
Ultimate collection means the trot becomes shorter in stride until it stays in place...just as we add extension with our seat and leg, we can add collection and amplitude.
The seat is critical and with the leaning back/tipping of the pelvis, the foot forwards, the hand pulling, that seat cannot receive upward energy hence all the problems we see with P&P, and saddle design these days allows for this and even promotes it. The seat and hand block the horse rather than create collection and elevation.
I have seen very ordinary horses, offering a standard and often poor medium walk, shift into a collected walk, coming straighter, and lighter in the hand, with just a change in how the rider is sitting and allowing the energy to come up through them, and that's with ME guiding them, absolutely not a trainer but just putting them in a better saddle and helping them sit better through literally 3 key biomechanical changes.
Ultimate collection means the trot becomes shorter in stride until it stays in place...just as we add extension with our seat and leg, we can add collection and amplitude.
The seat is critical and with the leaning back/tipping of the pelvis, the foot forwards, the hand pulling, that seat cannot receive upward energy hence all the problems we see with P&P, and saddle design these days allows for this and even promotes it. The seat and hand block the horse rather than create collection and elevation.
I have seen very ordinary horses, offering a standard and often poor medium walk, shift into a collected walk, coming straighter, and lighter in the hand, with just a change in how the rider is sitting and allowing the energy to come up through them, and that's with ME guiding them, absolutely not a trainer but just putting them in a better saddle and helping them sit better through literally 3 key biomechanical changes.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
Thanks sbloom that helps a bit. My mare used to piaffe at the gate if she wasn’t bought in first and did passage if she got really excited out hacking so she had the ability to do both movements , not sure how correctly though . I was never good enough to train to that level but have ridden a couple of GP horses with the owner instructing so had the feel of both piaffe and passage and flying changes ..