YO adding surcharge

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I wouldnt be expecting to be laying hay at this time of year ? ours have been out 24/7 for the last month. However if they are having to source it for you then fair enough but I’d be trying to source it for myself first then saying to YO to take them providing hay off my livery if I got some delivered for cheaper.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Im not the only ex-YO on HHO who eventually said f*** it and is happily now doing my own thing without liveries.

*joins RR on the bench *

 

[poiuytrewq]

Hay has gone up a LOT and I think £12.50 per week is probably a reasonable increase.
As long as it decreases when/if hay prices or availability does?
The yard round the corner from me has had to bring hay in from half way across the country which must have bumped her costs a lot.

 

[The Jokers Girl]

You do understand where hay comes from and what is involved in growing/making hay don’t you ? There are no terms and conditions in seasonal weather and demand. Reading through this thread is convincing me that pony owners on livery are under the impression that hay arrives in the barn via Amazon Prime.

Running a livery yard is no different to any other business . Costs fluctuate and prices change but when you are contracted and when you as a yard owner write that contract you are responsible for covering yourself against unexpected costs. Yes liveries treat yard owners like trash but yard owners treat their customers like trash too and if you as a YO are writing B2C T&Cs then you better get them right. What goes into making hay is irrelevant. Don't run a livery yard if you are not capable of pricing correctly and including a T&C against unexpected costs.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

Running a livery yard is no different to any other business . Costs fluctuate and prices change but when you are contracted and when you as a yard owner write that contract you are responsible for covering yourself against unexpected costs. Yes liveries treat yard owners like trash but yard owners treat their customers like trash too and if you as a YO are writing B2C T&Cs then you better get them right. What goes into making hay is irrelevant. Don't run a livery yard if you are not capable of pricing correctly and including a T&C against unexpected costs.

As a livery I disagree. On your basis a livery yard owner would have to charge an extra £50 a month as normal just in case prices double making your livery £600. Even if prices go down. So instead of only paying an extra £50 for say 3 months you end up paying it forever. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[AmyMay]

Running a livery yard is no different to any other business . Costs fluctuate and prices change but when you are contracted and when you as a yard owner write that contract you are responsible for covering yourself against unexpected costs. Yes liveries treat yard owners like trash but yard owners treat their customers like trash too and if you as a YO are writing B2C T&Cs then you better get them right. What goes into making hay is irrelevant. Don't run a livery yard if you are not capable of pricing correctly and including a T&C against unexpected costs.

By definition, does that apply to supermarkets as well?

 

[The Xmas Furry]

By definition, does that apply to supermarkets as well?

And petrol stations?

Supply and demand.....

 

[Rowreach]

I’m now remembering why YOs share their blacklists amongst themselves ?

 

[AdorableAlice]

Running a livery yard is no different to any other business . Costs fluctuate and prices change but when you are contracted and when you as a yard owner write that contract you are responsible for covering yourself against unexpected costs. Yes liveries treat yard owners like trash but yard owners treat their customers like trash too and if you as a YO are writing B2C T&Cs then you better get them right. What goes into making hay is irrelevant. Don't run a livery yard if you are not capable of pricing correctly and including a T&C against unexpected costs.

You could not be more wrong if you tried regarding hay costs and sourcing. Your comments really do reflect why livery yards are closing.

I agree that on costs can be factored into the price of livery, on costs are fencing, land management, utility increases, building up keep etc. Weather conditions and seasonal changes cannot be foreseen or managed.

It matters not whether the yard is occupied by Penelope and Kipper or Charlotte and Valegro, it is mother nature and weather conditions that dictate the hay crop, be it in abundance or scarcity.

 

[ycbm]

I think all Jokers Girl is saying is that either the contract should allow for a surcharge in bad years OR that the normal cost should include a slight uplift for holding against the 1 in x years when there's a problem?

If so, then I'd have to agree with that.

ETA if the OP's contract said she would have to pay an uplift if hay prices rose unexpectedly, then this thread would have been very short.

 

[The Jokers Girl]

By definition, does that apply to supermarkets as well?

I don't have a contract with my local supermarket so irrelevant

 

[The Jokers Girl]

I’m now remembering why YOs share their blacklists amongst themselves ?

Also shows exactly why a lot of yards have empty stables as liveries also blacklist yards with unreasonable yard owners ?

 

[AmyMay]

I don't have a contract with my local supermarket so irrelevant

So you never use one, or any shop for that matter?

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I don't have a contract with my local supermarket so irrelevant

But you might have a contract at work?
There are many who have seen their contracts amended in the last year or more, having not just gone onto furlough payments but some having to accept less hours/days for less pay. Which is equally blooming hard ?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Normally hay shortages are restricted to smaller regions, and hay merchants can readily buy in from elswhere. 2020/21 have been exceptional.

2020 was a widespread poor hay making year throughout the country - although we got the hay made my own yield was 25% down on normal. That was common all over. Then this spring the grass has been slow coming through, so folk have needed to feed hay much later than usual.

If you want to hold a livery owner to ransom and decline to pay a surcharge because of the lack of a suitable clause in your contract then grand. Put them out of business or get them to realise what a thankless task running a livery yard is so they boot all the liveries out and find a less stressful way to earn a living.

 

[Auslander]

I've been a livery, and now run a livery. Never have I had a contract as a livery which had anything in the T&C's re price changes, and nor does my own contract. Livery is a very different service from standard B2C service provision, as it's ongoing, often for many years, rather than being a one-off/short term provision of goods/services. It would never have crossed my mind to refer to my contract as a livery when a price hike was announced, and I'd be pretty surprised if one of my liveries did that during a period of excessively high costs to buy in something that the horses need. Im afraid that, tolerant as I am - if I had to apply a short term surcharge in order to provide the same amount of hay, and one of my liveries refused to pay it - I'd have no hesitation in giving them notice.

I'm in the same boat as most at the moment. My supplier grows all his own, and doesn't buy hay in. He usually has enough for the year, but has run out of both hay and haylage in the last week, and is cutting his first haylage field this weekend. I have to find enough hay for 12 horses, to last them til October at the earliest. I usually buy 6 large bales a week at £35 a bale.

I have spent hours at my desk, trying to sort out an alternative. I've sourced 30 large bales, which will be £45 each. Once I've exhausted that supply, I will be looking at small bales for £5.50. My bales (which are a specific size) are equivalent to 12 small bales - so I'll be paying £66 for the equivalent amount of hay).

Once my yard rent, insurance, hay, feed, maintenance and other bills are paid, I make a profit which equates to earning 60p per hour. Contrary to popular opinion, us yard owners are a very long way from making oodles of money which we can happily spend on paying for hay out of our own pockets!

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I think all Jokers Girl is saying is that either the contract should allow for a surcharge in bad years OR that the normal cost should include a slight uplift for holding against the 1 in x years when there's a problem?

If so, then I'd have to agree with that.

ETA if the OP's contract said she would have to pay an uplift if hay prices rose unexpectedly, then this thread would have been very short.

I think this is a good point. My experience of livery contracts though is that they are not worth the paper they are written on in many circumstances.

I would be comfortable to pay a surcharge because I know hay prices are exceptionally high in my area this year. However I’d caveat that with:

- A decent explanation from the YO about the situation
- An explanation of how they came to the figure of £50 per horse. (Which seems high, hay costs me around £50 a month in winter in a normal year and this year that would be around £25 per month extra) at the moment I’m using much less as they’re out. I have fed hay longer this year as the grass wasn’t growing due to it being so dry.

I also don’t think it is wrong of the OP to ask the question on here. Like anything there are good and bad people running yards. I don’t really like the livery vs livery yard owner vibe as it’s not helpful.

 

[Chianti]

I think this is a good point. My experience of livery contracts though is that they are not worth the paper they are written on in many circumstances.

I would be comfortable to pay a surcharge because I know hay prices are exceptionally high in my area this year. However I’d caveat that with:

- A decent explanation from the YO about the situation
- An explanation of how they came to the figure of £50 per horse. (Which seems high, hay costs me around £50 a month in winter in a normal year and this year that would be around £25 per month extra) at the moment I’m using much less as they’re out. I have fed hay longer this year as the grass wasn’t growing due to it being so dry.

I also don’t think it is wrong of the OP to ask the question on here. Like anything there are good and bad people running yards. I don’t really like the livery vs livery yard owner vibe as it’s not helpful.

I agree with your comments about contracts. I doubt very much that the one I have would hold up in any legal dispute. To be honest it reads as if a group sat round a table and listed all the things they wanted not to be responsible for. I know that a couple of the clauses have no legal standing. In the horse world there are crap liveries and crap livery owners. Unfortunately the crap owners seem to attract good liveries and the crap liveries good owners. I've 'done' livery for a long time and it's one of the reasons I would never have another horse. If I have a service contract with another provider, e.g. energy or broadband, and they are going to increase my costs then I get sent an email or letter detailing why they are doing so and when the increase will be. I understand that they hay situation is very poor this year but it's not unreasonable for the OP to have been given an explanation as to how that figure has been arrived at.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I think this is a good point. My experience of livery contracts though is that they are not worth the paper they are written on in many circumstances.

I would be comfortable to pay a surcharge because I know hay prices are exceptionally high in my area this year. However I’d caveat that with:

- A decent explanation from the YO about the situation
- An explanation of how they came to the figure of £50 per horse. (Which seems high, hay costs me around £50 a month in winter in a normal year and this year that would be around £25 per month extra) at the moment I’m using much less as they’re out. I have fed hay longer this year as the grass wasn’t growing due to it being so dry.

I also don’t think it is wrong of the OP to ask the question on here. Like anything there are good and bad people running yards. I don’t really like the livery vs livery yard owner vibe as it’s not helpful.

To give a simple example:
Say YO has been purchasing hay at £4 from supplier and dobbin uses 3 bales a week. Total cost to YO for hay is £12.
YO is now struggling to get hay under £7 a bale as supplier has none. If purchased, this adds £9 per week to Dobbins hay consumption.

A YO near me has just sourced 50 small bales in Devon (!) and paid 7.20 delivered. She usually gets from my farmer friend all year round but he ran out in early April. 50 bales wont last her long..... her 5 liveries have OFFERED more money without being asked.

 

[Red-1]

I feel that people may have a 'contract' with their YO, but that contract is soon got out of. We are not talking about some governmental contract with clauses in where if service is not met at a price, in a time period, that there are penalty clauses!

A contract is simply stating what the agreement is. Either party can terminate the contract, usually with 1 month's notice. So, I would see it as a situation where, if someone didn't pay the extra money, their 'contract' to be a livery would be... terminated.


PS, our place was a livery yard before we moved here. We have had several people want to livery here. Not. On. Your. Nelly!

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

It’s not unreasonable to want a break down though. Why is it £50? Why not £45 or £48 etc?

I have sourced my own hay for years, only on my last two yards have I been able to buy hay from the YO made by them. I’ve never even in the really bad years paid more than £40 a round bale and I go through one every 4weeks.

 

[Auslander]

It’s not unreasonable to want a break down though. Why is it £50? Why not £45 or £48 etc?

I have sourced my own hay for years, only on my last two yards have I been able to buy hay from the YO made by them. I’ve never even in the really bad years paid more than £40 a round bale and I go through one every 4weeks.

That's fair enough!
I allocate £70 a month per horse for hay, based on 2 bales each. If I were to ask for an uplift, it would be a proportion of the extra I'm paying per bale. I'm feeding 50/50 hay and barley straw as well at the moment, so my hay lasts longer, and my costs don't spiral - hopefully I won't need to charge any more

 

[scats]

Our hay mostly comes from the farmer who rents our land. We are fortunate in that he always makes sure we are sorted first, but last year he warned YO that hay prices would be rising due to shortages and demand.
YO mentioned it to us and we all understood and that was that. Costs rise, particularly when your product is dependent on factors beyond control.

Our shavings price went up last year because we couldn’t get the same brand as normal. We didn’t even question it to be honest, but we trust our YO.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

To give a simple example:
Say YO has been purchasing hay at £4 from supplier and dobbin uses 3 bales a week. Total cost to YO for hay is £12.
YO is now struggling to get hay under £7 a bale as supplier has none. If purchased, this adds £9 per week to Dobbins hay consumption.

A YO near me has just sourced 50 small bales in Devon (!) and paid 7.20 delivered. She usually gets from my farmer friend all year round but he ran out in early April. 50 bales wont last her long..... her 5 liveries have OFFERED more money without being asked.

I think each situation is different and your example is no more relevant than mine. I don’t think many people will offer to pay more if they don’t have too.

In a different situation when my horse on livery had finished his hay ration by 5pm when I went to ride after work I offered more money to the YO for more hay and they refused it and refused to give more hay!

 

[Spirit2021]

50 is a lot of money ask the other livery’s what are they paying.I had a friend on a livery yard where on certain people who are are disliked where charged extra to cover the rise in hay prices but the other livery’s didn’t pay it anything.

 

[Chianti]

50 is a lot of money ask the other livery’s what are they paying.I had a friend on a livery yard where on certain people who are are disliked where charged extra to cover the rise in hay prices but the other livery’s didn’t pay it anything.

I can't imagine that happening in other service industries!

 

[SO1]

I don't know what area you are in but 550 for 7 day part livery is quite reasonable. I pay over £100 more than that and that is for a pony that is not on adlib hay. Is the extra for ad lib hay

I would expect that the livery price should cover fluctuations in hay, bedding and feed prices. As my old yard owner used to say some years she did well when weather was good and horses needed less hay and hay prices were low and other years so didn't do so well if there was a lot of snow and less grass more hay needed.

 

[ycbm]

I can't imagine that {charging different customers different amounts} happening in other service industries!

Teachers have been paying 10% less than other shoppers in Morrisons for the last 6 months.
.

 

[catkin]

I can't imagine that happening in other service industries!

happens in all industries.

From paying reduced postage for 2 items 'cos they go in the same box or a single travel fee for the vet seeing two horses in one visit,
to surcharges for popular dates in hotels or work being done on a bank holiday
or special offers/discounts to members of a particular club etc


I'm sure everyone can think of more examples....

 

[Chianti]

happens in all industries.

From paying reduced postage for 2 items 'cos they go in the same box or a single travel fee for the vet seeing two horses in one visit,
to surcharges for popular dates in hotels or work being done on a bank holiday
or special offers/discounts to members of a particular club etc


I'm sure everyone can think of more examples....

Seriously - if you were on livery you'd be perfectly happy with being charged more than another livery for exactly the same service? The horse owner in the stable next door to you is paying less because the livery owner dislikes you - and that would be ok?