Young Dog Chasing (Killing) Hens

Firstly, she is gorgeous !!

'Jumping on top of her from a great height' will work, however, it is not teaching her what you want her to do it just makes her scared enough of you that she dare not do anything around you, not a relationship I would want with my lovely dog.

Any decent trainer will help you, but this is how I would do it:

Start nowhere near the chickens and teach her impulse control - put some food in your hand, when she goes for it, close your hand, keep at it until she stops trying, then reward her. (Clicker training is great for this, but if you don't want to, it's not essential) Most dogs pick this up really quickly, then progress to putting the food on the floor, then further away etc etc until it becomes normal for her and you can add the leave it command. Then progress onto other things that she likes, toys etc then more and more enticing items until she understands that the leave it command means leave 'anything' THEN start with the chickens.

This is good serious of videos to show this method: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEeS2dPpPtA

Yes it will take a few weeks and lots of your time, but your dog will learn what the leave it command means and the reward for her will be your praise and making you happy.
 
Good luck with training her, and I am glad you are not taking the advice of people to shut the chickens away, IMO they have as much right as the dog to a stress free and happy life. (I breed bantams). All our dogs are good with chickens, even the lab I use to retrieve them if they won't go where I want them to. We have had one terrier that wouldn't learn, the red mist used to descend with her, but all the others have been OK, I am sure you can do it. I am with the Alec and DR training camp, 'leave it' needs to be a very well understood command.
 
3B, Lacey brings SO MANY positives to the discussion. The problem is that there are, equally, so many points, no more than observations, and to make. From the Pics and the Vids, that is a very smart puppy, VERY smart indeed.

Watching her she's not yet at the stage where she's wooden and deaf. Landing on her from a great height will most probably have repercussions which will be detrimental, at the moment. A positive.

She listens to you and she makes eye contact, and willingly it seems. Another positive.

You have a clear understanding of how she sees 'cause and effect' and how you need to apply it. Yet another positive.

The influence of others who have no idea what you're trying to achieve? A huge and damaging negative.

I strongly suspect that Lacey needs something to focus on, other than chasing chickens. If you don't want to use her for her intended purpose, then she needs something else to occupy her mind and her energies. I'm assuming that she retrieves? That's the first port of call, I'd say. She IS at the stage where a degree of self restraint (set up by you) will benefit her. She needs to be steady to the thrown dummy and once that's achieved, then no more sighted retrieves is how I'd go about it. Find her a small toy, but never leave her with it. It isn't actually a 'toy' for her to play with, it's your property. Once she's keen, hide it under some cushions, inside a coat pocket which is in reach and on the back of a chair, and as she becomes more proficient, so the searches are made more difficult.

Pain or discomfort teach a dog nothing if they have no understanding of the reasoning and if they don't understand, then any 'correction' will be counter-productive, install confusion, and you will achieve no more than building unnecessary hurdles to overcome. Lacey looks to me to be at the stage where a hefty dose of 'verbals' would be enough. If dogs don't understand correction, then they learn to disregard any form of punishment. She is not at the advanced stage where 'harsh' treatment is necessary, in my humble opinion.

The first and potentially the most damaging influence is from those other humans who have control over her in your absence. How you get around that, I'm not so sure. I'm fine with dogs but 'scruffing' humans seems to me to be a waste of time! :)

I'll finish as I started, you have a most appealing and a very smart puppy!

Right, I think that that's about it! Good Luck! :)


Alec.
 
I have soft breeds these days,but can see the need for clear boundaries when you have a life or death situation regarding yr livestock and your dog...I'm with Alex ,the short sharp shock is effective and a lifetime memory for the dog.
I walk past cattle here daily and oddly enough there is a ram in with them....I asked the farmer why.....he told me to bring my dogs up to the electric fence...this ram walked forward,squared up to my dogs and stamped his forelegs...
The farmer said it will kill any dog who enters the enclosed field.
These" sheep" are peccorino...huge beasts,twice as big as my 22 kilo dog...quite impressive!
 
Dry Rot said:
The short answer to the OP's question is that working dogs should be locked in a kennel unless under the immediate supervision of their owners. They have been bred with a high prey drive for centuries and it's a bit late to expect them to change their ways now.
Click to expand...
I agree and the dog has learnt what we all strive for our dogs not to learn and that is unless someone is physically there ad paying attention to the dog then the chasing of chickens is self rewarding, this in my experience is not a lesson that can be un learnt. It is why puppies need constant supervision.
It is easy to teach a dog not to do something when we re there and paying attention and bright dogs in particular need to be kept in such a way that when not supervised they cannot cause any trouble or come to harm..
Cause and effect is a great way for a dog to learn but you do not want to be seen to be the source of the effect-short sharp shock is one thing but scruffing /rolling and standing over a dog is not short and sharp it is threatening and does damage the foundation of a good working relationship between dog and handler, a bitch and her pups have a very different connection to a dog and a human.
I want my dogs to be confident to try things without them wondering if I am going to lose the plot in and scare the hell out of them in a confrontational way. In the same token if I want the behaviour to cease as it is unwanted I make sure I am i control of the situation before it all goes wrong.
chasing and catching are self rewarding so very hard to stop.
As for the person who had a shepherd and dealt with it the way was suggested shame o them, for 1, if you dont want a dog that tells you someone has arrived maybe it would be an idea not to get a guarding breed, 2, if the dog felt safe/secure and confident in the leadership of the owner then the need to bark is vastly reduced 3,why not just train a quiet command to stop the bark.
Non of my dogs have ever made a fuss about the postman or knocks at the door, my current rescue (I got her when she was almost 2 and she had been in kennels since she was 10 weeks) jumped out of her skin when the postman first put post through the door, I had made sure I could be around or she could come with me everywhere for the first week or so as much as poss, so I just sat and ignored the post till later i the day, the next day I introduced her to the post man whilst on a walk, after a couple of days she stopped getting up to the sound of the post and carried on sleeping. lead by example ad dogs will often follow.
 
Thank you all for your replies (and apologies for the late reply), they've definitely given me something to think about and some ideas to work with.

Patchworkpony - I have heard of that before too. A neighbour has done it with her dogs if they have ever killed one, I think she does it over night though, not for such a long period of time. I'm not sure it's something I could do though, I am a bit funny with dead things and don't think I could cope with one being dragged around the house - plus I think she'd probably eat it lol!

TM - We have done some impulse control as part of her general training so I will try and step that up a bit in preparation for introducing it around the chickens!

AS - Thank you, that means a lot coming from you. Yes she retrieves. Not in a proper working fashion but generally if I throw her the ball (does it matter that it's not a dummy?) she will bring it back (but sometimes in a round about way!). She is fairly steady to the ball when inside but we do need to work on it out in the open as when her blood is up she will break! Due to the weather though I have neglected outside training a bit I'm afraid so do need to get motivated again!

Inside vid - (obviously I don't do the ready steady go thing all the time, I was just messing around with this!

[video=youtube;8GanysD-ecc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GanysD-ecc[/video]

We already do blind retrieves with the ball (again, only inside!) which she absolutely loves, I find it a great way of mentally challenging her!


Thank you to everyone else too. Like I said above, some great ideas to go forward with. She's very trainable and learns quickly (the good and the bad!) so I'm sure with time and patience we'll get there!
 
Dry Rot said:
The short answer to the OP's question is that working dogs should be locked in a kennel unless under the immediate supervision of their owners. They have been bred with a high prey drive for centuries and it's a bit late to expect them to change their ways now. Also, chasing a ball is the sure way to train a dog to chase.
Click to expand...

She is working bred yes, but, that doesn't mean she should be locked in a kennel. She is a pet above all else and she lives in the house. I chose the breed because I wanted an active dog with a trainable attitude. Yes she will have natural instincts but so will every dog, it doesn't mean that they can't be overcome or that a dog can't learn to control them.

Equally, many dogs are allowed to chase balls, sticks, toys etc. That doesn't give them permission to chase everything else as well.
 
3Beasties said:
many dogs are allowed to chase balls, sticks, toys etc. That doesn't give them permission to chase everything else as well.
Click to expand...

But one that does chase, continuing to do this is going to make the situation worse not better. Same goes with squeaky toys - absolute no go with a dog that kills. As for permission to chase everything else - they don't know the difference.
 
Working dogs need not be locked in kennels - mine live in. An e collar or one well timed telling off will stop the chasing. I taught a 6yo lurcher who was chasing and killing deer on his own (previous home) not to chase deer or any livestock with an e collar - he wore it for a week not turned on, we went to a forest full of deer and I turned him loose. A deer popped up, he set off like his tail was on fire and I pushed a button. No command, no recall, no reprimand. It took less than twenty seconds for him to pull up looking confused and a bit unhappy. Then I used the recall whistle and offered some roast chicken. Rinse and repeat twice more. Deer hurt, so do sheep, as far as he is concerned. He's completely stock broken now and works as a retriever with the gundogs - I can safely send him into a field of sheep for a bird without cause for concern.
 
I've never used any device which imparts an electric shock to a dog, and for the very simple reason that I don't have the necessary experience of dog training.

It's my opinion that for joe-public, those like me who don't really know what they're doing, they are evil devices and should be banned, and by law.

Alec.
 
EQUIDAE said:
But one that does chase, continuing to do this is going to make the situation worse not better. Same goes with squeaky toys - absolute no go with a dog that kills. As for permission to chase everything else - they don't know the difference.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, if you have a high prey drive dog, it is pretty useless trying to kiil off the prey drive. If you do not want the dog to do what he was bred for you have to redirect his hunting instinct towards other things like balls and toys. By teaching him to retrieve correctly, with self-control, by teaching to give his all at flyball or by motivating him to hurl himself around an agility course with the help of squeaky toys to start with you can give him a satisfying life. Not quite sure I agree with your reasoning there but I am willing to accept it may be true for some dogs, though not for mine as I have always tried to work with their instinct and not against it.
 
planete said:
On the other hand, if you have a high prey drive dog, it is pretty useless trying to kiil off the prey drive. If you do not want the dog to do what he was bred for you have to redirect his hunting instinct towards other things like balls and toys. By teaching him to retrieve correctly, with self-control, by teaching to give his all at flyball or by motivating him to hurl himself around an agility course with the help of squeaky toys to start with you can give him a satisfying life. Not quite sure I agree with your reasoning there but I am willing to accept it may be true for some dogs, though not for mine as I have always tried to work with their instinct and not against it.
Click to expand...

Exactly! I use a ball when I'm walking her. She gets to work but in a controlled way. She remains focused on me. Without a ball she becomes selectively deaf as she starts hunting the natural smells that she picks up.

Likewise, the ball helps with her agility training as her drive to get it complements her desire to learn.
 
3Beasties said:
Exactly! I use a ball when I'm walking her. She gets to work but in a controlled way. She remains focused on me. Without a ball she becomes selectively deaf as she starts hunting the natural smells that she picks up.

Likewise, the ball helps with her agility training as her drive to get it complements her desire to learn.
Click to expand...

Yet she is killing chickens so it is obviously not working. You can't have it both ways unfortunately. You need to shut the dog or chickens away if you are not going to address the chase behaviour - she needs to learn that chase is unacceptable, until the point you can call her off - and it sounds like you are a long way from that point.

ETA - I have lurchers so I have a decent amount of experience with dogs with a high prey drive. They don't play fetch, they don't have squeaky toys, they don't kill my chickens (or cats). They do have scent targeted play, they get off lead speed play, but never anything that would start they prey drive - once they learn to chase and kill you have already lost your battle. Much better not to put them in that position in the first place.
 
Last edited:
EQUIDAE said:
ETA - I have lurchers so I have a decent amount of experience with dogs with a high prey drive. They don't play fetch, they don't have squeaky toys, they don't kill my chickens (or cats). They do have scent targeted play, they get off lead speed play, but never anything that would start they prey drive - once they learn to chase and kill you have already lost your battle. Much better not to put them in that position in the first place.
Click to expand...

Emphasis mine. Not true, read my post further up the thread - all dogs even lurchers can be stock broken if done correctly. Even if they have chased and killed.
 
druid said:
Emphasis mine. Not true, read my post further up the thread - all dogs even lurchers can be stock broken if done correctly. Even if they have chased and killed.
Click to expand...

Yes, by an experienced person. The OP allows the dogs and chickens time together unsupervised - not intentionally as sometimes others let them out by accident, but in this situation the dog will never be trained.
 
There is a simlar thread here with a working dog OP - you may be interested in following it.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?718010-Shooting-Bolting-the-line-(

One piece of advice that was very sensible was this

twiggy2 said:
practice practice practice, not on the field though.
set up senarios that make the dog break the wait/stay-then practice practice practice.
Although a dog that has learnt it can bolt is unlikely to ever be 100% reliable.
Until a dog is 100% reliable the opportunity to bolt should never be available to it.
If the dog bolts on the field it needs to be kept on the lead.
Click to expand...
 
EQUIDAE said:
Yes, by an experienced person. The OP allows the dogs and chickens time together unsupervised - not intentionally as sometimes others let them out by accident, but in this situation the dog will never be trained.
Click to expand...


I have never said that I leave my dog unsupervised with the hens.

I disagree. This dog will be trained but thank you for the vote of confidence.
 
3Beasties said:
I have never said that I leave my dog unsupervised with the hens.

I disagree. This dog will be trained but thank you for the vote of confidence.
Click to expand...

I often have the blooming bantams come and join me in the meadow when training pups - they learn to ignore them quickly and will retrieve from beyond or amidst them once they know they're not for touching.
 
3Beasties said:
I have never said that I leave my dog unsupervised with the hens.
Click to expand...

You said people accidentally let him out - this is what I mean. As long as that is happening you will get nowhere - all your training will be undone. It's not about lack of confidence in your training, it's about the situation that the dog (and chickens) are being put it. Until you have trained the dog to leave them on every single occasion this cannot happen - every time the dog accidentally gets let out, your training is undone. You're going to end up more and more frustrated and the dog more confused. Everyone needs to be on boards in the training phase. The question is how you are going to train the dog that chickens are not for eating now he has already decided that they are?
 
Dry Rot said:
Not quite the same thing. Yes, some dogs will be made worse. Terriers, for example, especially some breeds, will be 'turned on' by the infliction of pain. So, rat bites dog; dog then decides every rat should be eliminated. But some dogs will be put off rats altogether.

I do not approve of sticking a dog in with an aggressive ewe or tup. Much better to walk it through a field of sheep, on the lead, and tap is on the nose with a small switch when it even looks at sheep with the word "Leave!" (Some will object to this because 'it hurts the dog'. No pain, no gain -- sadly!). Sheep and lambs running away are particularly tempting. After a few lessons, the dog won't even want to look at sheep!

The short answer to the OP's question is that working dogs should be locked in a kennel unless under the immediate supervision of their owners. They have been bred with a high prey drive for centuries and it's a bit late to expect them to change their ways now. Also, chasing a ball is the sure way to train a dog to chase. Teach them to Sit on command when pups, then to Sit when they see something moving, like a rolled tennis ball, then it is easier to train them to Sit to a rabbit or a bird flushing, as they should do. The response should be automatic as you are merely replacing one behaviour (to chase) with another (to sit) which is what training should be all about.
Click to expand...

I'd make it illegal for people who can't read to own a dog, let alone those who misquote! :D
 
3B, reading your further posts, I suspect that there needs to be an improved or increased level of discipline installed. 'Discipline' for most Cockers tends to be as a 'screw' and when we find that we've perhaps rather over done it, so we relax the screw, just a little. If we have riot to deal with, then we go back to the beginning. The basics of discipline should never be attempted, in my view, when there are temptations in the puppy's path, chickens for instance! Once the down-and-stay are installed and the 'stay' needs to be for several minutes, then we can move forwards.

Similarly, once lead work is in place, so it's important that upon release the dog isn't aloud to fly off in to the distance immediately. The dog needs to be released by voice, so we impose our will upon the dog. If we ignore the basics and if we cut corners, so we'll almost certainly pay the price, even if it is further down the line of our progress.

Back to the 'down'; when we have control in place, then that will be the time to return to your hens. You should be able, after you're confident, to have the puppy lie down and sling a handful of corn to the hens and they can feed around her and have her ignore them, but that may take some time to achieve! The trick with spaniels, I've always found, is to remember that we have the vital tool of discipline to return to to correct our mistakes, or conversely we can relax the screw, just a little if perhaps we find that we've soured the dog.

You're entirely right in that if you don't want to use your dog for its intended purpose, that you replace that with a secondary 'purpose' for her. Many years ago I sold a cracking but headstrong Cocker pup to the Met Police as a search dog. She was the first Cocker that they'd ever had and she was the start of their own breeding programme. She was just too strong for shooting, but given another job of work, she excelled and whilst all the basics were in place when she arrived with them, instead of the usual 4 months training programme, she was out and working within 6 weeks of her arrival with them, as a bomb dog. Anyway, that's rather wandering away from the point!

I feel sure that you'll make progress and surprise yourself at the progress which you can make, but first you will need to have a greater degree of control in place, I feel sure! Good Luck!

Alec.
 
Years ago spaniels used to be hunted in packs, expected to work within half a gunshot, be steady to game, and some might be trained to retrieve. The vital word is "trained". Colonel Hutchinson's "Dog Breaking" (where Peter Moxon got most of his material from!) explains this and although published in the 1800's is still a good read.

img047_zpskep7r0j7.jpg


Not spaniels, but working pointers and setters which usually have more drive than spaniels so ought, in theory, to be harder to control. There are 18 dogs in the photo with more out of shot, total about 30.

sit2.jpg
 
Dry Rot said:
……..

sit2.jpg
Click to expand...

I do enjoy your pics DR of your large groups of dogs on a patient and waiting 'down'. I remember those mornings of years ago (NOT with the numbers which you had!) and when coffee in hand and sitting on a tree stump, rolling a smoke, and we had 10 or 20 minutes of 'down'-time. They were cathartic and calming mornings from which both dog and man benefited. When the DG and I first got together, we'd sit in the wood shed, in the evening sun, a huge G&T apiece, and 4 or 5 collies all yawning aloud their boredom sprawled out before us, with a tolerated degree of squirming going on!

Halcyon Days.

Alec.
 
I cannot believe that in this day in age there are still people recommending physically punishing a dog. Why don't you get someone to put a shock collar on yourselves and get them to try and teach you something by giving you electric shocks? There should be NO 'quick fixes' when it comes to dog training. If a dog has such an ingrained chase drive then don't let them off lead near chickens, sheep, etc and separate the dog and other animals with a fence. It's that simple! My own dogs would probably kill a cat if they got hold of one and it's for that reason that they don't get off lead in areas where they are likely to see one. They do however get off lead in other places so aren't confined to a lead all the time.
 
Our yard has a freedom fence which kind of works on the same principle, it means that neither yard dog escapes through the gate if it has been left open/find a hole in the field hedge.

If it keeps them safe and means that they otherwise get a great life ratting on the yard etc I don't really see the issue. Presumably people are still recommending it because it works?
 
I have had chickens and dogs for years and never a problem until I got my new dog. She is a working german shepherd and like your Cocker would do exactly the same. Unless you were on her she would take any opportunity. I needed a solution that would also work when I wasn't 'on her' which isn't feasible 24/7 but also not connect me to the reprimand.
I put the chickens behind an electric fence, when she went for one she got shocked. This happened a couple of times and now they can walk about and she won't go near them as she associates it with an electric shock!
I dont hit my dog so I needed a solution. She is now over a year and has worked for 6 months.
 
ester said:
Our yard has a freedom fence which kind of works on the same principle, it means that neither yard dog escapes through the gate if it has been left open/find a hole in the field hedge.

If it keeps them safe and means that they otherwise get a great life ratting on the yard etc I don't really see the issue. Presumably people are still recommending it because it works?
Click to expand...

By 'freedom fence' you mean electric fence? Am I right? If so then there have been numerous cases of them failing and dogs getting out anyway. They also won't stop unwanted dogs and other animals getting in and attacking/causing problems for your dog! That is why physical fences are so much better and a lot more humane as well. Would you like to have your boundaries dictated by an electric shock?
 
It isn't my dog, or my solution to the problem but after initial training they know where the line is (half way down the field) and don't go near it whether it is working or not.

It does fail (emits the most annoying beep from the barn) but the dogs don't seem to know that and I do struggle to see it is much different to my horse having his boundaries dictated by an electric shock too and obviously compared to a human operated E-collar has no human element to go wrong. They do have a physical fence too but over a couple of acres (house and yard) plugging any very small terrier sized gaps is a bit tricky and knowing that they will only bark at the dustman from a distance rather than dash out on to the road because someone has opened the gate to leave the yard and go to work does seem quite sensible to me.

We don't have issues with any other random animals coming and attacking the dogs, I'm not sure where you live that this would be a problem!?, we are quite low density I suppose, Louie the lurcher from next door has been known to take a fancy to the cat but if she goes in his garden then :p. Everyone else is very social, the collies the other side have a regular fab hide and seek game round the hedge on the way back from their walk but everyone is very civil. What does drive me mad is the horse owner on the yard whose dog has gone up through the garden gate and out onto the road several times, in the dark and she seems not to care a jot when people retrieve her.
 
Love_my_Lurcher said:
By 'freedom fence' you mean electric fence? Am I right? If so then there have been numerous cases of them failing and dogs getting out anyway. They also won't stop unwanted dogs and other animals getting in and attacking/causing problems for your dog! That is why physical fences are so much better and a lot more humane as well. Would you like to have your boundaries dictated by an electric shock?
Click to expand...

So you disagree with electric fences for horses as well?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top