Young Dog Chasing (Killing) Hens

Love_my_Lurcher said:
I cannot believe that in this day in age there are still people recommending physically punishing a dog. Why don't you get someone to put a shock collar on yourselves and get them to try and teach you something by giving you electric shocks? There should be NO 'quick fixes' when it comes to dog training. If a dog has such an ingrained chase drive then don't let them off lead near chickens, sheep, etc and separate the dog and other animals with a fence. It's that simple! My own dogs would probably kill a cat if they got hold of one and it's for that reason that they don't get off lead in areas where they are likely to see one. They do however get off lead in other places so aren't confined to a lead all the time.
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I have shocked myself with the collar - it's no harsher than a static shock from a car door. If my lurcher wasn't stock broken he'd be dead there is no where that doesn't have deer, rabbits, sheep or chickens to walk in locally
 
Alec Swan said:
I have to ask, why did you think that a lurcher which you couldn't otherwise stop from worrying livestock and poultry, was such a good idea?

Alec.
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You sound like my husband! He was livid when I went and got a lurcher and threatened to shoot her on several occasions, more than once she survived the night by the skin of her teeth.
 
Clodagh said:
So you disagree with electric fences for horses as well?
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I don't have horses and have only had childhood experiences of working with them. Do I agree with the reliance of electric shocks to contain any kind of animal? No I do not.

druid said:
I have shocked myself with the collar - it's no harsher than a static shock from a car door. If my lurcher wasn't stock broken he'd be dead there is no where that doesn't have deer, rabbits, sheep or chickens to walk in locally
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What was the collar set at when you shocked yourself? And do keep in mind that a dog's skin is thinner than human skin. I have also had quite a few static shocks and some have really hurt. Both my dogs wear fleeces and there's been the occasional time when there has been a big build up of static in them. When taking them off on those times (over their heads with the fleeces making contact with their ears) both my dogs whimpered and once my Greyhound let out a big yelp. I hated the fact that their fleeces caused them discomfort and pain and have been extremely careful while taking their fleeces off since. So don't tell me that shock collars don't hurt because they jolly well do! What's the point of them otherwise? It doesn't matter if you 'only have to zap them once'. The fact remains that on that one time you deliberately caused your dog to feel discomfort and pain. That to me is totally unacceptable.

You are also a horse person right? So presumably you have access to indoor/outdoor arenas or fields you can access when they are empty. If so then you have safe areas for your dog to be off lead. Your dog absolutely doesn't have to be off lead on every walk, right?
 
Love_my_Lurcher said:
…….. . Do I agree with the reliance of electric shocks to contain any kind of animal? No I do not.

……..
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All so often, and often in the spring, horses need to live in paddocks whilst having their grazing restricted. Perhaps they could be prone to laminitis or they're good doers and the weight goes on in a rush, perhaps the owner wants to make hay from the grass which is being saved. How would you get around the problem, without electric fencing?

Alec.
 
Quite,
and surely the thickness of the skin isn't actually the key point, it is the amount of nerve endings?

I struggle to understand the outrage of electric fencing, or that dogs should be exercised in arenas (not dog proof, neither are fields, and very few people have an indoor and those that do are unlikely to want dogs in them much!)
 
ester said:
I struggle to understand the outrage of electric fencing, or that dogs should be exercised in arenas (not dog proof, neither are fields, and very few people have an indoor and those that do are unlikely to want dogs in them much!)
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Quite, and if they do have a dog proof field its probably because its got electric fencing around it!
 
As for doing away with electric fencing, just try strip grazing cattle without it! Somebody needs to go and do some work experience on a farm methinks, and have to retrieve cattle that have broken through into a field of kale or mend unprotected permanent fences that have been rubbed on or chewed to bits.
 
Love_my_Lurcher said:
You are also a horse person right? So presumably you have access to indoor/outdoor arenas or fields you can access when they are empty. If so then you have safe areas for your dog to be off lead. Your dog absolutely doesn't have to be off lead on every walk, right?
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He's perfectly safe off lead everywhere now except near traffic where I pop him on a lead. Much more pleasant for both of us. I only took him on because he was going to be shot, if I hadn't stepped in he'd be dead but hey, he wouldn't have felt the bullet so that's ok, right?
 
druid said:
When I met him he was tied to a fence about to be shot, what would you have done?
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I'd have 'made' him stock-proof, or shot him. 'Stock' and his natural 'Quarry' are two totally different things. I've had a great many lurchers over the years and bred a few too, and have never yet had one dog which wasn't safe with poultry or farm stock.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
I'd have 'made' him stock-proof, or shot him. 'Stock' and his natural 'Quarry' are two totally different things. I've had a great many lurchers over the years and bred a few too, and have never yet had one dog which wasn't safe with poultry or farm stock.

Alec.
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I have made him stock proof, the reason he was to be shot was because he kept attacking deer and sheep when taken lamping. None of my dogs have an issue with livestock, deer or birds
 
I'm not going to get into a debate about electric collars, fencing, freedom fence etc as I made my view clear early in the thread but I just wanted to say...

That while I agree that no one should intentionally cause discomfort to a dog, I do believe in certain situations it is better for them to have one short shock that then enables them to have the freedom that they should have (imo).

Without chicken proofing my dog she will need to be on the lead every time she is in the garden. Every time she helps me do the horses. Every time I walk near my neighbours house and every time I am walking somewhere I don't know to ensure that she doesn't chase. Every time we have a bbq, she would be inside. Every time we played outside, she would be inside or tied up. She wouldn't be able to be part of our family in the way she should be. She should be allowed to run free, to keep her on a lead for the rest of her life would be a crime and I honestly don't think I could do it to her, she was born to run!
There is no other way of keeping the hens and her seperated; the only option we would have is to get rid of the hens but that does not solve the problem of taking her elsewhere.
I want a dog I can trust. I want a dog that I can take anywhere. If one small shock was what was needed (2 seconds of discomfort) for a lifetime of freedom then I really do think it is worth it. And if she could talk I reckon she'd agree too!
 
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blackcob said:
As a fluffy bunny type I've been avoiding this thread until now but I have to ask - is there a reason the chickens can't be penned in?
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Because the OP doesn't agree with it and doesn't agree with having the dog on a lead - irresponsible really. Let's just hope the dog doesn't pay the price for this on a walk...
 
EQUIDAE said:
Because the OP doesn't agree with it and doesn't agree with having the dog on a lead - irresponsible really. Let's just hope the dog doesn't pay the price for this on a walk...
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I never said I didn't agree with it although given a choice, yes, I would rather keep them free range, they have been so all their life so it seems unfair to change that now. They live in a shed by night, they have free range of our property the rest of the time. There is no option of shutting them in without building a run - something I can not do at the moment.

As to the lead. I have no problem walking her on a lead, I did so tonight, and no doubt will do so again by the end of the week. My preference is to have her off though. When she's older she will come running with me and also riding with the horses, obviously for that she needs to be 100% trustworthy off the lead.

I do not however agree with having to put her on a lead when ever I open the back door when a bit of training is all that is needed to avoid it.

I am sorry if me asking for advice on how to train my dog has offended you. I could have posted saying that my young active dog will never be off the lead and/or my free range hens will be shut in for ever more as I didn't want to put any effort into training her. I wonder what kind of response I would have got from people then?!

As to being irresponsible - if that's what you want to call someone for trying to train and overcome an issue than so be it; I personally have a very different definition of the word.
 
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Training started tonight with a sausage circle. She 'stayed' for a minute which I thought was pretty good for her first attempt!


 
3B, there's one thing which is certain, your little dog will learn far more from you whilst she's 'off' the lead, than whilst she's 'on' it. Once you have her attention from the point of view of compliance, then you'll find that when she's on a lead, she has no real need to think about you because you're just on the other end of a bit of string. When you truly have her attention and when she's focused on you then she'll find that she no longer has the lead to rely on, she'll have to consider you and where you are.

OK, so to get to the happy state which you need, it may be a rather bumpy ride, for a while, but when discipline's installed, then you'll be able to put up some proper vids! :wink3:

Will Clullee (Poolgreen Gundogs) is in Shropshire (I think), he certainly won't be that far from you. Why don't you google him and ask if you can have an hour with him, he'll charge you for it, but it'll be the best £50(?) that you've spent for a while. He's as good as there is in this country with Cockers and though he may disagree with the odd point that I've made, he'll demonstrate how its done. He's also a really nice bloke too.

Alec.
 
As someone who has lots of chickens -why should they be shut in? I know they are 'only' chickens, but I really don't see that their life should be compromised. OP is training the pup, she asked on here for ideas, it has gone off at a tangent (who would believe that!), but I am sure that the pup will end up safe around the chickens. We all use training tools that others deem inappropriate but to call 'irresponsible' the wish to neither have a dog always on a lead or chickens always shut in a pen is a bit simplistic.
 
3Beasties said:
I never said I didn't agree with it although given a choice, yes, I would rather keep them free range, they have been so all their life so it seems unfair to change that now. They live in a shed by night, they have free range of our property the rest of the time. There is no option of shutting them in without building a run - something I can not do at the moment.

As to the lead. I have no problem walking her on a lead, I did so tonight, and no doubt will do so again by the end of the week. My preference is to have her off though. When she's older she will come running with me and also riding with the horses, obviously for that she needs to be 100% trustworthy off the lead.

I do not however agree with having to put her on a lead when ever I open the back door when a bit of training is all that is needed to avoid it.

I am sorry if me asking for advice on how to train my dog has offended you. I could have posted saying that my young active dog will never be off the lead and/or my free range hens will be shut in for ever more as I didn't want to put any effort into training her. I wonder what kind of response I would have got from people then?!

As to being irresponsible - if that's what you want to call someone for trying to train and overcome an issue than so be it; I personally have a very different definition of the word.
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Couldn't agree more, stick to your guns, these people whos animals never have freedom through lack of training are the ones in the wrong, not you. I agree with Alec's suggestion o going to see a spaniel man for some pointers.
 
I trained my friends lurcher not to chase cats it was adult and with me for six months while it's owner was abroad it was not that hard and she was a hardened cat chaser and at the end of six months they where sleeping on the bed together I am sure OP's dog can be trained to be chicken proof .
 
Thank you for the trainer recommendation, I will investigate and try and sort some sessions out with him.

I've been working on making sure that 'stay' means stay this week in the hope that it will make her a bit steadier and learn to resist temptation. She's always been a bit dodgey with this, especially outside when I'm using a ball thrower but today I tried it around 10 times and she didn't break once. Will increase the time gradually over the new few days and then start making it a bit trickier for her!

[video=youtube;elEFymrz-_E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elEFymrz-_E[/video]
 
Well done, I had a thought - have a look at place board training. It might help with her steadiness. My aim is to pop them on the board, go make a cup of tea and the dog not to have moved an inch. I need mine steady for picking up so I do lots of work on it :)
 
druid said:
Well done, I had a thought - have a look at place board training. It might help with her steadiness. My aim is to pop them on the board, go make a cup of tea and the dog not to have moved an inch. I need mine steady for picking up so I do lots of work on it :)
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I do this with mine with mats in the kitchen - mainly when we are eating as lurchers are quite good at sneaking things off plates/counters. Plus I can't stand dogs mooching. Works well :)
 
The answer to the OP's question (how to teach dog not to chase hens) is very simple. Aversion therapy.

The dog in JillA's story chased a cat because it did not fear the cat. It chased it around a corner when it turned into a tiger. The dog did not chase the tiger because it instinctively fears tigers.

The dog chases hens because it is not afraid of hens. The clue is in the story above. The OP has to devise some means (preferably several) of convincing the dog that hens have become tigers. One of the first things I'd do is to get a dead hen and hang it on the electric fence. The aversion is self taught. That is the direction my logic would take.

Nothing to do with the owner. No commands or even his/her presence is necessary. Nothing to do with the social hierarchy. Nothing to do with instilling steadiness. Nothing to do with teaching "Leave". But all these are still essential elements of dog training and need to be taught. But to answer the original question, the psychology is different.

Ball games are excellent for instilling obedience. A thrown ball is very tempting and the game can encourage and teach a dog to chase. For that reason, it is a useful training tool. It can be used to teach a dog NOT to chase or stop chasing when told ('Sit", "Leave" or simply "Come Here"). I would never regard any dog of mine as trained until I could stop it, dead, when running flat out after a thrown ball. (And that can easily be taught with a check cord of known length that brings the dog to an abrupt halt at a defined point, synchronised with the command). I used to encourage my dogs to chase the swallows and butterflies flying over my fields simply as they were a temptation I could use to instill the 'Sit'. The stop (Sit, Down, Hup, whatever) is as vital in a trained dog as the brakes are on a car. The 'Come Here" is the steering.

Turning the requirement on it's head, it is sometimes necessary in dog training to convince a dog that the 'tiger' is in fact a pussy cat! Man work with protection dogs is one of them. The dog is not "beaten and tormented with a stick" as someone suggested on another thread, but quite the reverse -- it is encouraged to win. The decoy occasionally runs away, screams in pain, writhes on the ground, etc. Same thing when starting a young sheepdog. It is allowed to chase sheep that run away and do not pose a threat. It will definitely not be put in a position where an old ewe or a tup can dominate it or attack it. I can think of dozens of similar examples. So why not teach a dog to avoid hens simply by applying the same psychology, but in reverse? Not all training can be done with treats and in life not all learning is pain free. My grandmother taught me that when I thought it was fun to play with matches!
 
This stopped our Working Cocker from chasing the chickens as a young pup:
First they invaded her room (my utility):
attachment.php

Then they wouldn't let her through:
attachment.php

Then we had a Mexican standoff:
attachment.php

Then they chased her down the garden:
attachment.php


She was a bit younger than your pup though - about 4/5 months at this point and the hens were proper feisty biddys (ex-batts).

She's never chased a hen since though and would happily be around their house whilst I cleaned it out and be in the garden with them. Sadly though the ladies were no match for the fox when we were home slightly later than usual one evening :(
 
My collies used to chase the rabbits..... Until I let the big brute of a rabbit out in the garden who beat them up.
Then quickly learned to leave the rabbits alone.
At one point I came into the kitchen to find the dogs sat waiting to go out the dog flap and the rabbit was sat the other side waiting for them :D they wouyonly go.out if that rabbit was back in his hutch.
 
3Beasties said:
I never said I didn't agree with it although given a choice, yes, I would rather keep them free range, they have been so all their life so it seems unfair to change that now. They live in a shed by night, they have free range of our property the rest of the time. There is no option of shutting them in without building a run - something I can not do at the moment.

As to the lead. I have no problem walking her on a lead, I did so tonight, and no doubt will do so again by the end of the week. My preference is to have her off though. When she's older she will come running with me and also riding with the horses, obviously for that she needs to be 100% trustworthy off the lead.

I do not however agree with having to put her on a lead when ever I open the back door when a bit of training is all that is needed to avoid it.

I am sorry if me asking for advice on how to train my dog has offended you. I could have posted saying that my young active dog will never be off the lead and/or my free range hens will be shut in for ever more as I didn't want to put any effort into training her. I wonder what kind of response I would have got from people then?!

As to being irresponsible - if that's what you want to call someone for trying to train and overcome an issue than so be it; I personally have a very different definition of the word.
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If you want a 1oo% trustworthy dog then forget it. No dog is 100% trustworthy. I have heard of dogs with previously superb and solid recalls blowing one and ending up being killed on the road because their idiot of a human insisted that they must absolutely be off lead while walking next to a road or near one.


Clodagh said:
Couldn't agree more, stick to your guns, these people whos animals never have freedom through lack of training are the ones in the wrong, not you. I agree with Alec's suggestion o going to see a spaniel man for some pointers.
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My dogs do enjoy freedom from the lead several times a week, but at least that freedom hasn't come from them being shocked, cracked with a whip or whatever.

Dry Rot said:
The answer to the OP's question (how to teach dog not to chase hens) is very simple. Aversion therapy.

The dog in JillA's story chased a cat because it did not fear the cat. It chased it around a corner when it turned into a tiger. The dog did not chase the tiger because it instinctively fears tigers.

The dog chases hens because it is not afraid of hens. The clue is in the story above. The OP has to devise some means (preferably several) of convincing the dog that hens have become tigers. One of the first things I'd do is to get a dead hen and hang it on the electric fence. The aversion is self taught. That is the direction my logic would take.

Nothing to do with the owner. No commands or even his/her presence is necessary. Nothing to do with the social hierarchy. Nothing to do with instilling steadiness. Nothing to do with teaching "Leave". But all these are still essential elements of dog training and need to be taught. But to answer the original question, the psychology is different.

Ball games are excellent for instilling obedience. A thrown ball is very tempting and the game can encourage and teach a dog to chase. For that reason, it is a useful training tool. It can be used to teach a dog NOT to chase or stop chasing when told ('Sit", "Leave" or simply "Come Here"). I would never regard any dog of mine as trained until I could stop it, dead, when running flat out after a thrown ball. (And that can easily be taught with a check cord of known length that brings the dog to an abrupt halt at a defined point, synchronised with the command). I used to encourage my dogs to chase the swallows and butterflies flying over my fields simply as they were a temptation I could use to instill the 'Sit'. The stop (Sit, Down, Hup, whatever) is as vital in a trained dog as the brakes are on a car. The 'Come Here" is the steering.

Turning the requirement on it's head, it is sometimes necessary in dog training to convince a dog that the 'tiger' is in fact a pussy cat! Man work with protection dogs is one of them. The dog is not "beaten and tormented with a stick" as someone suggested on another thread, but quite the reverse -- it is encouraged to win. The decoy occasionally runs away, screams in pain, writhes on the ground, etc. Same thing when starting a young sheepdog. It is allowed to chase sheep that run away and do not pose a threat. It will definitely not be put in a position where an old ewe or a tup can dominate it or attack it. I can think of dozens of similar examples. So why not teach a dog to avoid hens simply by applying the same psychology, but in reverse? Not all training can be done with treats and in life not all learning is pain free. My grandmother taught me that when I thought it was fun to play with matches!
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Letting a dog run a certain distance then forcing the dog to come to an abrupt stop? I sodding well hope you have not tried that with a sighthound, a slenderly built Lurcher or some other breed/type with a delicate frame. Doing that sort of thing with them is a good way of damaging/breaking their necks and spines! Greyhounds (the second fastest land mammal) can reach their top speeds (40+ mph) in just a few seconds and if they come to a sudden stop (because of something around their necks) while going at those speeds then the pressure on their necks can be enormous. That's why countless Greyhound adoption groups and specialist vets tell people to NEVER attach a Grey to a flexi lead, tie out cable or long line! However, doing that to any breed isn't nice.

'Training' through fear, pain and intimidation is nothing more than bullying and is one of the laziest ways of 'training'.
 
Do you not think 'bullying' is both emotive and humanising? Given that by definition it only applies to humans.

At the end of the day it is just conditioning whether using positive reinforcement, negative punishment, positive punishment or negative reinforcement
 
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