Young Dog Chasing (Killing) Hens

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Do you not think 'bullying' is both emotive and humanising? Given that by definition it only applies to humans.

At the end of the day it is just conditioning whether using positive reinforcement, negative punishment, positive punishment or negative reinforcement

Eh, no. The word 'bullying' does not apply exclusively to humans bullying other humans. Here is one definition of 'bully' from the Oxford Dictionary:


"noun (plural bullies)


A person who uses strength or influence to harm or intimidate those who are weaker:
‘he is a ranting, domineering bully’


More example sentences


Synonyms


verb (bullies, bullying, bullied)
[with object]Back to top 


Use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force them to do something:
‘a local man was bullied into helping them’"


I would classify a dog as a 'someone' and not a 'something' because dogs are not inanimate objects. That would also be the perfect definition for someone who uses fear and pain to 'train' a dog!

 

[ester]

whereas I would define someone as human as would most dictionaries for their requirements
'an unknown or unspecified person; some person'
Especially as most other definitions do use the term people and the term originated between people.
collins
'the intimidation of weaker people'
'a person who hurts, persecutes, or intimidates weaker people'

Your choice though, for me it isn't terribly accurate to the situation or the suggestions but that is probably the scientist in me wanting to stick the 'right' definitions input.

 

[Dry Rot]

If you want a 1oo% trustworthy dog then forget it. No dog is 100% trustworthy. I have heard of dogs with previously superb and solid recalls blowing one and ending up being killed on the road because their idiot of a human insisted that they must absolutely be off lead while walking next to a road or near one.




My dogs do enjoy freedom from the lead several times a week, but at least that freedom hasn't come from them being shocked, cracked with a whip or whatever.



Letting a dog run a certain distance then forcing the dog to come to an abrupt stop? I sodding well hope you have not tried that with a sighthound, a slenderly built Lurcher or some other breed/type with a delicate frame. Doing that sort of thing with them is a good way of damaging/breaking their necks and spines! Greyhounds (the second fastest land mammal) can reach their top speeds (40+ mph) in just a few seconds and if they come to a sudden stop (because of something around their necks) while going at those speeds then the pressure on their necks can be enormous. That's why countless Greyhound adoption groups and specialist vets tell people to NEVER attach a Grey to a flexi lead, tie out cable or long line! However, doing that to any breed isn't nice.

'Training' through fear, pain and intimidation is nothing more than bullying and is one of the laziest ways of 'training'.

LML, you are absolutely right. My ways of training are cruel, barbaric, and bullying as witnessed by the video below which you might like to turn over to the RSPCA. If my dogs don't do what they are told, they get a good flogging with a piece of rusty barbed wire that I keep specially for training purposes.

https://youtu.be/pAtSGsYQNRw

 

[Alec Swan]

LML, you are absolutely right. My ways of training are cruel, barbaric, and bullying as witnessed by the video below which you might like to turn over to the RSPCA. …….

https://youtu.be/pAtSGsYQNRw

DR, you're wasting your energies. The fact that over a 50 year period you were considered Internationally by those with opinions worth considering, to be at the very top of your game, that your peers respected you, that young and old alike with an interest in the English Pointer constantly turned to you for your opinion and advice and that you made up probably more Field Trial Champions in the world of 'The Pointer' than anyone alive today, means absolutely nothing to some.

When I see others contradict you and they can 'demonstrate' their points, then I'll listen to them, but until then, just stay as you are! :wink3:

Alec.

 

[Dry Rot]

DR, you're wasting your energies. The fact that over a 50 year period you were considered Internationally by those with opinions worth considering, to be at the very top of your game, that your peers respected you, that young and old alike with an interest in the English Pointer constantly turned to you for your opinion and advice and that you made up probably more Field Trial Champions in the world of 'The Pointer' than anyone alive today, means absolutely nothing to some.

When I see others contradict you and they can 'demonstrate' their points, then I'll listen to them, but until then, just stay as you are! :wink3:

Alec.

OK, OK, so how much was it you wanted to borrow? I'll get a cheque off in the morning!

 

[Clodagh]

Eh, no. The word 'bullying' does not apply exclusively to humans bullying other humans.

So you prefer to only allow your dogs off lead a couple of times a week in a contained area as you prefer never to 'bully' them? Are they also allowed to counter surf/ jump up on people etc as training is bullying? Am intrigued!

 

[Tobiano]

I have read this thread with great interest - well done 3B with your pup's training, you seem to be doing extremely well. Also very interesting and helpful to read the very expert advice from a number of people.

I am a 'fluffy bunny' type too but I actually don't understand the extreme reaction to use of electric collars. Why are they worse than the 'tap from the schooling whip' or the shock from the electric fence? Druid's example seems such a good one - the dog would have been killed, and instead now has a wonderful life for the 'price' of a couple of brief electric shocks. I haven't used an electric collar but would certainly consider very limited use if it would save my dog's life. (Or my chickens, if I had any!).

 

[ester]

Essentially I see it as giving the chicken defences it doesn't actually have, so the dog thinks chickens hurt, not OMG my owner is so mean to me.

 

[Dry Rot]

Essentially I see it as giving the chicken defences it doesn't actually have, so the dog thinks chickens hurt, not OMG my owner is so mean to me.

Exactly! Aversion therapy. If you have ever accidentally put your hand on the hot ring of your cooker, you don't do it again. You don't blame the shop that sold it to you or the electricity company. You just make sure you don't do it again. It really isn't rocket science.

As for electric collars, I think I must have been the first person to import one into Scotland (if not the UK) over forty years ago and I had several models after that. They sound marvellous and you will never hear about the dogs that are spoilt using them. After shooting the first dog I ruined with one, I gave up using them and quickly found there were better ways of administering that "psychological shock".

To work at all, the probes inside the collar have to be in tight contact with the skin. That isn't always possible. Anyway, a dog will notice anything unusual and alter it's behaviour. I had one dog that would not work with a collar on -- any collar -- because an e-collar had jammed. They are also electronic devices and anyone who uses a computer will know that electronics isn't 100% reliable. On this occasion, the collar jammed on the dog delivering a continuous shock and I was badly bitten trying to remove it! You won't know how your dog is going to react until you've shocked it -- it will increase agression in some and reduce others to a state of terror. Successful training relies on setting up a scenario where your dog can succeed. If anything goes wrong, events can take a different course and the result may be very different to what was intended. Many times, that training scene you have so carefully organised will go wrong, simply because we cannot know (scent, etc) what the dog is experiencing.

I took my best young dog to Orkney to introduce him to red grouse. Back in those days I was selling dogs for today's equivalent of tens of thousands of pounds. The only problem was that although there were plenty of grouse on the islands, there were also plenty of rabbits. I thought I would be clever and sicken the dog off rabbits so I fitted it with an electric collar. Things went well with the occassional short course after a rabbit but he didn't catch one, so I was waiting for the perfect opportunity to apply the shock. Then the dog came onto point and I was sure it was a rabbit. So I pressed the button. Nothing! Either the probes were not in contact with the dog's neck, the batteries were flat, the circuitry was faulty, etc. but the point is the collar delivered no shock.

As we walked forward, a big pack of grose rose to my dog's point and my companion managed to get a right and a left. I went forward, picked up a bird, and took it back to my dog and showed it to him. He got the message. Here was the end result to all his hard work and my training. He turned out the best dog I have ever owned. Now, how good would he have been if he had got a shock, not for pointing rabbits but for pointing grouse?

The best training tool is a length of baler twine, the stuff they tie up small bales with. It costs nothing, can be rolled up and put in your pocket, or dragged by the dog without him even noticing. It is easy ti pick up the end and give a tweak to convince the dog that your reach extends far further than your arm. With moderate skill, you dog may never realise that your limits are 12 - 15 metres and that dog that will Sit or Drop instantly at 20 paces will now do so at 200 metres -- and more.

Sorry, but that is my last post on this subject. There are plenty of books in your local library. Legislation is enacted only after wide spread consultations with known experts. They do not make new laws lightly. Electric collars are banned in Wales and soon will be in Sotland. They are banned (except by special permission) by the armed forces, the police, prison service, etc. as they should be. Professional trainers worthy of the name don't need them and don't use them. There are better methods.

 

[ester]

I do think dogs get to know when and when not they have collar on, so regardless of timing I don't think they are a great tool in anyone's hands/the solution.

 

[druid]

I do think dogs get to know when and when not they have collar on, so regardless of timing I don't think they are a great tool in anyone's hands/the solution.

Only if it wears it a lot - Lurcher wore it for a week turned off before it getting used, not long enough to realise the collar was what gave him the shock.

I'd rather not use them but it was a last resort for him.

 

[ester]

Ah yes, good point. I guess I got used to the old dog being very wise to that with the freedom fence if he didn't have the collar on He was 15 though so knew how to work life by then and still chasing after girls :rolleyes3:. He did decide to stay at home in his 16th year .

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

LML, you are absolutely right. My ways of training are cruel, barbaric, and bullying as witnessed by the video below which you might like to turn over to the RSPCA. If my dogs don't do what they are told, they get a good flogging with a piece of rusty barbed wire that I keep specially for training purposes.

https://youtu.be/pAtSGsYQNRw

So no videos of you 'training' those recalls and lay downs then?

DR, you're wasting your energies. The fact that over a 50 year period you were considered Internationally by those with opinions worth considering, to be at the very top of your game, that your peers respected you, that young and old alike with an interest in the English Pointer constantly turned to you for your opinion and advice and that you made up probably more Field Trial Champions in the world of 'The Pointer' than anyone alive today, means absolutely nothing to some.

When I see others contradict you and they can 'demonstrate' their points, then I'll listen to them, but until then, just stay as you are! :wink3:

Alec.

All that 'fame' means nothing to me. The fact remains that Dry Rot has admitted to using sickening 'training' methods so I couldn't give a stuff if they are 'respected' by their peers.

So you prefer to only allow your dogs off lead a couple of times a week in a contained area as you prefer never to 'bully' them? Are they also allowed to counter surf/ jump up on people etc as training is bullying? Am intrigued!

The fields they get let off in are either not enclosed or only partially enclosed. One is a huge sports field, another is a large field next to a quiet part of an industrial estate (although there is no access to any of the surrounding roads from the field) and the other is part of an old dissused village hospital. There is also a circular walk that encompasses another large field. Those are their usual places and there are other places (which are further away) that they get taken to a couple of times a month for a good run. They don't get let off just a couple of time a week. They get let off 3-4 times a week! Besides, it doesn't matter if a dog can 'only' get let off in a smaller enclosed field. It's what you do with your dog that matters. There are plenty of things that can make their time in a smaller area lots of fun. You can take agility equipment or lots of different toys or you can do scent work. That at least would be so much better than not letting them off lead at all. Oh and they don't 'counter surf' or jump up at people. They have never done those things anyway. They have been taught good manners through positive training and not being bullied into submission.

Also, to a lot of other people, their last resort is to hire a field or equestrian arena so their dogs can be let off lead. They wouldn't even cater to the idea of their last resort being a shock collar!

I have read this thread with great interest - well done 3B with your pup's training, you seem to be doing extremely well. Also very interesting and helpful to read the very expert advice from a number of people.

I am a 'fluffy bunny' type too but I actually don't understand the extreme reaction to use of electric collars. Why are they worse than the 'tap from the schooling whip' or the shock from the electric fence? Druid's example seems such a good one - the dog would have been killed, and instead now has a wonderful life for the 'price' of a couple of brief electric shocks. I haven't used an electric collar but would certainly consider very limited use if it would save my dog's life. (Or my chickens, if I had any!).

There is an extreme reaction because it is ABUSE! Deliberately shocking any living being is abuse! I have heard of several cases of parents using them on their kids and on each of those occasions they were done for child abuse! Shock collars are thankfully banned in a number of countries and it looks like mine (Scotland) is set to outlaw them too. The reason they are banned is because they are cruel and inflict pain. Deliberately shocking your dog is very much cruelty in my eyes and I would quite happily see anyone (even admitting to using them on the internet) prosecuted for cruelty. In fact I have reported several members of forums I belong to for partaking in illegal and cruel activities (with at least one resulting in police action). Yes it's something I feel strongly about. Anytime I look into my dogs eyes, anytime I play with them, heck anytime I look at them, I think how wonderful they are. It is truly horrible to think of dogs like them being mistreated or being in the hands of people who would think nothing of shocking them and hitting them with whips!

Also, that dog's 'wonderful' life has come from fear. The whole point of using shock collars is to create pain and thus creating a fear of doing something wrong. How that can be classed as 'training' I will never know!

 

[Alec Swan]

L_m_L, are you able to demonstrate your abilities? Have you ever competed against your peers or even entered any form of performance test? To 'rubbish' the opinions of those who have demonstrated their abilities is both insulting and unworthy of consideration. In short, you're talking complete and utter nonsense. Sorry, but that's a fact and one which will be shared by others. I'd recommend that you join the focused dog training forum sites and offer your views. You may come to a better understanding of the mind and the thought processes of a dog and also of the trainer.

It genuinely isn't my intention to be rude, but if you fail to understand how to achieve a dog's respect and attention, then you're due a measure of criticism.

Alec.

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

L_m_L, are you able to demonstrate your abilities? Have you ever competed against your peers or even entered any form of performance test? To 'rubbish' the opinions of those who have demonstrated their abilities is both insulting and unworthy of consideration. In short, you're talking complete and utter nonsense. Sorry, but that's a fact and one which will be shared by others. I'd recommend that you join the focused dog training forum sites and offer your views. You may come to a better understanding of the mind and the thought processes of a dog and also of the trainer.

It genuinely isn't my intention to be rude, but if you fail to understand how to achieve a dog's respect and attention, then you're due a measure of criticism.

Alec.

Don't you dare say I am talking nonsense and yes you are being rude! People like you continue to sicken me. Using punitive and aversive methods on dogs can be extremely harmful. Using those types of methods will only suppress behaviour through fear, pain and intimidation. Those behaviours (and they have done) can arise at any time and in some cases can be worse than before. There are quite a lot of dogs that appeared on Cesar Millan's shows that are now dead (because they went onto bite and attack people), who went back to their original adopters or who went to live on sanctuaries because their behaviours did not improve. He has also gotten people bitten through his use of shock collars. One time was when he shocked a cat reactive GSD and the dog redirected and bit the woman that had him. Not only do shock collars inflict pain, they can leave burn marks, cause heart problems or aggravate underlying heart problems, make dogs depressed and make them associate shocks with things like passers by (including children) thus creating fearfulness or fear aggression towards those things. 'Freedom fences' routinely fail and dogs can still get past the boundary line, they will NOT keep out unwanted dogs that might want to attack yours, nasty people who want to steal or harm your dog, nor will they keep predators out. Those things have been confirmed by vets and behaviourists who have compared the results of aversive and punitive 'trained' dogs and positively trained dogs. Oh and like I said, I have zero time for someone who has admitted to abusing their dogs in order to achieve 'results'.

 

[Clodagh]

DR said he is anti shock collars - so what has he done to upset you? I don't think Alec condones them either so am not sure why you are so anti their training. You don't know what they do.

I am glad to hear your dogs get to run around but can you do so near livestock or chickens? What happens if they see a cat in their free time?

 

[ester]

Quite and I don't think anyone has suggested using Cesar's techniques either!??

 

[twiggy2]

Only if it wears it a lot - Lurcher wore it for a week turned off before it getting used, not long enough to realise the collar was what gave him the shock.

I'd rather not use them but it was a last resort for him.

I have to disagree on this, it is not if the dog wears it a lot it is if the dog only wears it when it will be used, my lurcher wore hers for moths before the moment presented itself with perfect timing, it is recommended that they wear it for at least 4 weeks with no use before it is used, if the collar is used more than once it is also suggested that it be worn with no use for at least a few days after. She had got used to wearing the collar and box just like a normal collar, it was the cat that stung just before she touched it and nothing to do with what she was wearing round her neck, I do think that the collars have to be used with real caution and the person operating it has to has perfect timing and the patience to wait till the perfect moment arises, for me I really did not want to resort to using one hence her wearing it for so long before use, she was however hunting the semi feral cats on the yard I was working at, I worked there for 4 hours each morning and there were up to 14 dogs at the yard at any given time, she loved to play but if she got the sent (or sight) of a cat she was hunting-one well timed shock and after that she would show the same level of interest as any other dog but she did not want to touch the cats anymore and her 'drive' was vastly reduced.
For me it worked (it cost me a lot of money though) but I have never used it on another dog or lent it out-the really need to be used with caution, they can do so much harm and they are not a quick fixed. My biggest concern was that my dog would bolt but it was on a fairly mild setting (yes I did use it on myself to set it) and I used it in a secure area-she came back to me when it was used and yes she yelped but when she got a shock of the electric fence 2 yrs later she bolted so the shock had a lesser response but enough to stop the issue.

 

[twiggy2]

Don't you dare say I am talking nonsense and yes you are being rude! People like you continue to sicken me. Using punitive and aversive methods on dogs can be extremely harmful. Using those types of methods will only suppress behaviour through fear, pain and intimidation. Those behaviours (and they have done) can arise at any time and in some cases can be worse than before. There are quite a lot of dogs that appeared on Cesar Millan's shows that are now dead (because they went onto bite and attack people), who went back to their original adopters or who went to live on sanctuaries because their behaviours did not improve. He has also gotten people bitten through his use of shock collars. One time was when he shocked a cat reactive GSD and the dog redirected and bit the woman that had him. Not only do shock collars inflict pain, they can leave burn marks, cause heart problems or aggravate underlying heart problems, make dogs depressed and make them associate shocks with things like passers by (including children) thus creating fearfulness or fear aggression towards those things.

All of these things can happen yes, no-one can deny that but a dog can be mentally scarred i many ways if the handler/trainer is not mindful of the dogs temperament/mental state/drive, the surrounding location the level of any training/external influence/distractions at the time-a good trainer is one who can assess the dog/their own abilities and limits as a trainer and treat every situation different and change their methods to each situation that arises.
Many dogs are spoilt by over treating (I use positive training methods with all my dogs) and not enough stimulation but the vast majority are not.
shock collars have a place but it is for me very very very limited ad very much only in the right hands

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

It genuinely isn't my intention to be rude, but if you fail to understand how to achieve a dog's respect and attention, then you're due a measure of criticism.

Alec.

Don't you dare say I am talking nonsense and yes you are being rude! …….. .

Being rude wasn't my intention, but sadly I don't accept instructions. If you 'talk nonsense' then it's likely to be pointed out to you. Your accusations of abuse are purely a subjective matter, and also of your opinion. My dogs adore me, as I do them, a concept which I accept that you will struggle with.

Alec.

Ets, and to, yet again, underline that fact that I have never and would never use an electric collar, just for those who may be in doubt!

 

[Dry Rot]

The problem with a dog wearing a shock collar for any length of time (as I discovered before I learnt there were better training tools) is that any metal object in close contact with the skin for any length of time will set up an irritation. It is the body attempting to reject a foreign object. It is so long since I've used one of these collars that I'd forgotten about this side effect.

It seems to me that natural selection would not have favoured pain if it did not have a useful function in the learning process. I wonder how animals would manage if they never felt pain?

These anecdotal theories on training that are being quoted would be more convincing if the poster could quote scientific references. Not much was taught about animal behaviour when I was in vet collage and I am not aware that dog training is discussed at college at all these days. I had a vet at my door not so long ago asking my advice on a dog training problem. He'd been trying to get his dog to point for two years and hadn't managed to teach it to Sit (flat down) either.

We managed to put solid foundations for both of these into the dog within about twenty minutes. Successful dog training (or any training come to that) is often about knowing which buttons* to press and when. Get it right and results can be very dramatic indeed. How long does it take for a pup to learn to chase a hen? That may not be what we want, but the dog is learning, and therefore inadvertently 'being trained' regardless. Untraining will take longer!

*Edited to say that that is a metaphorical button and not one on a shock collar transmitter!

 

[Leo Walker]

But one that does chase, continuing to do this is going to make the situation worse not better. Same goes with squeaky toys - absolute no go with a dog that kills. As for permission to chase everything else - they don't know the difference.

On the other hand, if you have a high prey drive dog, it is pretty useless trying to kiil off the prey drive. If you do not want the dog to do what he was bred for you have to redirect his hunting instinct towards other things like balls and toys. By teaching him to retrieve correctly, with self-control, by teaching to give his all at flyball or by motivating him to hurl himself around an agility course with the help of squeaky toys to start with you can give him a satisfying life. Not quite sure I agree with your reasoning there but I am willing to accept it may be true for some dogs, though not for mine as I have always tried to work with their instinct and not against it.

Yet she is killing chickens so it is obviously not working. You can't have it both ways unfortunately. You need to shut the dog or chickens away if you are not going to address the chase behaviour - she needs to learn that chase is unacceptable, until the point you can call her off - and it sounds like you are a long way from that point.

ETA - I have lurchers so I have a decent amount of experience with dogs with a high prey drive. They don't play fetch, they don't have squeaky toys, they don't kill my chickens (or cats). They do have scent targeted play, they get off lead speed play, but never anything that would start they prey drive - once they learn to chase and kill you have already lost your battle. Much better not to put them in that position in the first place.

Its not the case for my working bred, prey drive through the roof whippety lurcher. He would have made someone a first class worker, but things didnt pan out that way and hes a spoilt pet.

He lure races, well did we havent been for ages, but he did every week for a good 6 months and was not only exceptional at it, he loved it to the point he would get so excited watching the others race he nearly had me off my feet a couple of times as they passed the finish line as he wanted to join in with killing the lure. He also has loads of toys, mainly fluffy teddies that he kills and disembowels with incredible passion.

He also loves chasing and retrieving. We've worked on it loads, to the point he will retrieve out of water, by jumping into the lake etc, swimming out and fetching his toy back. Not bad for a dog that wont even go for a walk in the rain :lol: I am under no illusion that he enjoys retrieving. He doesnt. He retrieves so that he can chase it when its thrown again. We also did a LOT of firt pole work with him and nothing turns on prey drive like flirt pole work!

Not only does he live with a cat, who is his best friend in the world, but when we are out in the woods etc, and he puts rabbits up, he chases them, catches them, rolls them over and lets them go so he can chase them again. The reason he does this, is because when he was a small puppy he learnt a very unpleasant lesson about chasing cats. My big cat gave him what for twice, never had to do it again!

Would he be ok with chickens? Would he hell! He wouldnt kill them but he would chase them incessantly, if I let him. I wouldnt. He knows full well the difference between playing violently with a toy, chasing a ball and chasing and killing or hurting the cat, or even a wild rabbit.

I'm not so full on with the flirt pole and racing stuff now, because hes 4 and doesnt need the same intense input he did as a young dog and we've found other ways to manage him

I'm not activating his prey drive, thats always there! I'm just redirecting it into a way that suits me, him and his prey drive

Conversely, my other lurcher wouldn't chase a rabbit if it jumped up and boxed her on the nose while shouting "nah, nah, nah, catch me if you can" :lol:

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

DR said he is anti shock collars - so what has he done to upset you? I don't think Alec condones them either so am not sure why you are so anti their training. You don't know what they do.

I am glad to hear your dogs get to run around but can you do so near livestock or chickens? What happens if they see a cat in their free time?

These are the reasons why I have issues with Dry Rot:

"One of the first things I'd do is to get a dead hen and hang it on the electric fence. The aversion is self taught. That is the direction my logic would take."

And:

"I would never regard any dog of mine as trained until I could stop it, dead, when running flat out after a thrown ball. (And that can easily be taught with a check cord of known length that brings the dog to an abrupt halt at a defined point, synchronised with the command)."

Both those things cause a dog to experience pain and are deliberately inflicted. Not to mention the fact that intentionally making a dog come to a sudden stop while travelling at speed is downright dangerous and could easily result in neck and spinal injuries. DR might be against shock collars, but still advocates the shocking and jerking about of a dog. If that member was filmed doing those things to a dog on the street then it's likely that they would get prosecuted for cruelty. Just like that guy who was recently filmed hitting his AmBull on the street. So to say I am revolted by this member is an understatement!

As for Alec Swan. I have read more than enough of his posts to know he is someone I wouldn't want to know in the non virtual world. For one thing he doesn't seem to think that a man violently kicking a dog in the ribs is anything to worry about.

My dogs have never encountered chickens and have only seen sheep in the distance (no reaction). The circular walk we do sometimes has cattle in the field it encompasses. They have been off lead and seen them close up. No reaction. There was a time when I had them at a friend's house (who stays in the country) and I was playing with them out the back. I threw the ball on one occasion and it bounced over the fence. There were a couple of Shetland ponies in it. Brochan jumped the fence to get the ball (which was only about a metre high) and the ponies were only a few metres away from him. He just grabbed the ball and jumped back over the fence. He never batted an eye at the ponies. So I would say that they wouldn't chase livestock. As for cats. They only get let off in areas where the chances of seeing a cat are very, very slim. They are practically non existent in fact.

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/implications-of-punishment.php

http://www.coape.org/blog.php?id=22&start2=0&hash=7ace6c8ed9fe30222353a0170353618431be3768386

http://eileenanddogs.com/shock-collar-info/

http://dogmantics.com/is-it-harmful-to-attach-a-leash-to-your-dogs-neck-2/

Quite and I don't think anyone has suggested using Cesar's techniques either!??

Oh, but they are. CM routinely shocks and yanks dogs about.

 

[ester]

Right so that makes it a 'Cesar technique' does it?! and therefore his failings with dogs are directly applicable to what people are suggesting might work with the OPs dogs? I think that is quite a loose connection myself given that he preaches some quite specific things very few of which I have seen mentioned here. Both Dryrot and alec have said they are against shocking... but you don't seem to have grasped that point.

 

[EQUIDAE]

LmL - be wary of allowing your dogs to jump fences into adjoining fields. Thats likely to get your dog shot that would be a shame for such a perfect dog

 

[MotherOfChickens]

LmL - be wary of allowing your dogs to jump fences into adjoining fields. Thats likely to get your dog shot that would be a shame for such a perfect dog

A while ago I had a cocker spaniel jump into my field and killed two very nice examples of two rare breed chickens. Chickens that were the culmination of four years of breeding after collecting stock from all over the country. I was not impressed. They said their dog had never encountered chickens before as well-if it had stayed where it was meant to be or been on a lead, it wouldnt have done that day! And, as the neighbouring farm's collie found out when he jumped in with my horses, some horses don't appreciate strange dogs

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Right so that makes it a 'Cesar technique' does it?! and therefore his failings with dogs are directly applicable to what people are suggesting might work with the OPs dogs? I think that is quite a loose connection myself given that he preaches some quite specific things very few of which I have seen mentioned here. Both Dryrot and alec have said they are against shocking... but you don't seem to have grasped that point.

And you don't seem to have read DR's post properly. He clearly recommended the use of an electric fence to shock a dog and openly admitted to causing his dogs to come to a violent and sudden stop at the end of a check cord!!!!

LmL - be wary of allowing your dogs to jump fences into adjoining fields. Thats likely to get your dog shot that would be a shame for such a perfect dog

Well I actually know the person who owns the field and it was a neighbour of my friend. I happen to know that she does NOT own a gun and is not a farmer. Plus there is the fact that the ponies never bothered about Brochan either. They might also have been a few metres away, but not close enough to be in striking range. If I thought there was any chance of trouble I would have intervened and not allowed him to jump the fence.

A while ago I had a cocker spaniel jump into my field and killed two very nice examples of two rare breed chickens. Chickens that were the culmination of four years of breeding after collecting stock from all over the country. I was not impressed. They said their dog had never encountered chickens before as well-if it had stayed where it was meant to be or been on a lead, it wouldnt have done that day! And, as the neighbouring farm's collie found out when he jumped in with my horses, some horses don't appreciate strange dogs

I was playing with my dogs in my friend's garden. They cannot run after a ball while attached to a lead and there was no reason whatsoever for me to believe that anything would have happened when he jumped the fence. He was over, grabbed the ball and came back again in less than a minute! Perhaps the reason why my dogs come back to me as readily is because they associate coming back with something really pleasant like a tasty treat or playtime. They have nothing to fear from me!

 

[ester]

I haven't seen Cesar do either of those things. Have you?

I have only seen him use shock collars, very occasionally which clearly aren't the same. Never seen him bring a dog to an abrupt halt after a ball.
That is my point really, you are extrapolating!

 

[Slightlyconfused]

My collie won't go into sheep.feilds, one he has always been afraid of sheep (yes I know he is werid ) so that's one reason but another was he started to chase a hare, I told him to drop he didn't listen, one of the only times, and he got a massive shock off the sheep fencing. He has never gone near the fences again. Didn't do him any harm.

Neither did letting one of my rabbits out to attack the collies when they tried to be too playful with our house rabbit. This rabbit was an outdoor rabbit for a reason and ten minutes with him they now leave the others alone.

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

I haven't seen Cesar do either of those things. Have you?

I have only seen him use shock collars, very occasionally which clearly aren't the same. Never seen him bring a dog to an abrupt halt after a ball.
That is my point really, you are extrapolating!

That is nonsense! He frequently shocks dogs and yanks them about (usually with a slip lead inserted in between their necks and ears). Not only that, but he has strung them up on quite a few occasions too. Two of the dogs he did that to didn't stay with their families for long after he did that to them! How many episodes of his shows have you watched?

Oh and an electric shock is an electric shock regardless of what type of device it is emitted from!