Young Dog Chasing (Killing) Hens

[Love_my_Lurcher]

My collie won't go into sheep.feilds, one he has always been afraid of sheep (yes I know he is werid ) so that's one reason but another was he started to chase a hare, I told him to drop he didn't listen, one of the only times, and he got a massive shock off the sheep fencing. He has never gone near the fences again. Didn't do him any harm.

Neither did letting one of my rabbits out to attack the collies when they tried to be too playful with our house rabbit. This rabbit was an outdoor rabbit for a reason and ten minutes with him they now leave the others alone.

So you said he got a massive shock. but then said it didn't do him any harm? How did you know he got a massive shock? Did he yelp, whine or show any other obvious sign that he received a massive shock? If he did, then you cannot say it didn't do him any harm.

 

[ester]

Shock collars activated by a human are a world away from a chicken on a fence, and well if you can't see that then there isn't much I can do to demonstrate otherwise as I am not a) about to start drawing diagrams, b) go into the specifics as it was apparent earlier in the thread that you weren't keen to discuss things in an accurate manner with regards to actually how behaviours are influenced.

Yanking about isn't stopping them running after a ball after a command, it is just yanking them about.

As I said, stop extrapolating you are trying to suggest that anyone following Dryrots or Alec's suggestions will result in a dog they have to get rid off and sorry but no, that is just rubbish quite frankly. If I generated such associations in my job I'd need a new one pretty quickly!

 

[ester]

I tested the horse's fence the other day as someone was removing the posts from the top using their teeth...

It didn't do me any harm, I didn't yelp, or experience pain just a nerve response that caused me to withdraw my hand...

 

[Slightlyconfused]

So you said he got a massive shock. but then said it didn't do him any harm? How did you know he got a massive shock? Did he yelp, whine or show any other obvious sign that he received a massive shock? If he did, then you cannot say it didn't do him any harm.

He let out a yelp, yes it probably hurt just like I've gotten a shock off the horses fencing before and my horses have gotten shocks off when trying to fight with a horse the other side.
Better electric fencing then post and rail which can do alot worse.

He learnt to respect boundaries and fence lines. He now won't go into the feilds under fences without looking at me for the okay first.

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Shock collars activated by a human are a world away from a chicken on a fence, and well if you can't see that then there isn't much I can do to demonstrate otherwise as I am not a) about to start drawing diagrams, b) go into the specifics as it was apparent earlier in the thread that you weren't keen to discuss things in an accurate manner with regards to actually how behaviours are influenced.

Yanking about isn't stopping them running after a ball after a command, it is just yanking them about.

As I said, stop extrapolating you are trying to suggest that anyone following Dryrots or Alec's suggestions will result in a dog they have to get rid off and sorry but no, that is just rubbish quite frankly. If I generated such associations in my job I'd need a new one pretty quickly!

It was a chicken attached to an electric fence! What part of that did you miss?

There is also an abundance of veterinary evidence to prove that a dog coming to a sudden stop (especially while running) at the end of any type of lead does do damage!

And nowhere did I state that a dog 'trained' using aversive and punitive methods would have to be 'gotten rid of'! You are now putting words in my mouth! What I did say is that such methods are dangerous. They create fear and pain. Those things can and have made dogs behaviour worse. There are plenty of studies which prove that!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

It didn't do me any harm, I didn't yelp, or experience pain just a nerve response that caused me to withdraw my hand...

it makes me swear. although tbh it doesnt take much.

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

He let out a yelp, yes it probably hurt just like I've gotten a shock off the horses fencing before and my horses have gotten shocks off when trying to fight with a horse the other side.
Better electric fencing then post and rail which can do alot worse.

He learnt to respect boundaries and fence lines. He now won't go into the feilds under fences without looking at me for the okay first.

So it did harm him then! And no, an electric fence (either taped or invisible) is a lot worse. If a dog does manage to get out of an electric fence (perhaps while going after a cat or whatever with their adrenaline up) then the chance of them returning to the property are slimmer because they would fear the pain of a shock. Like I said before, invisible electric fences will NOT stop people getting onto your property to steal your dog or to harm them. They will NOT stop predators (depending on what country you are in) or other dogs getting in and attacking your dog. A large physical fence WOULD deter some would be thieves and attackers! Plus a larger physical fence would go a lot further at keeping predators and other dogs out. Then there is the fact that a dog running up to the boundary to greet people and getting shocked in the process could easily make them come to associate the shock with those people (thus creating fear aggression). Again there have been studies that prove the latter.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Rather an electric fence than a bullet

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Rather an electric fence than a bullet

But you do NOT need an electric fence when you can have a proper physical fence! If you happen to live in an area where physical fences are forbidden (some housing associations are quite strict about that) then perhaps you shouldn't get a dog in the first place!

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I don't have freedom fences or what ever they are. I just walk my dogs where I keep my horses. They have sheep in the winter. And I actually don't care that he is slightly fearful of an electric fence, better that than him getting shot in a farmers sheep.feild.

Where has anyone said electric fences stop burglary or stealing dogs? They don't. They are used for livestock control......Though sheep are too bone headed to remember that it shocks them

I would suggest you spend some time on a working farm then you might have a different view on country life.

Also I do not want my dogs running up to greet people. Especially when they are as scarey looking as one of mine.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

But you do NOT need an electric fence when you can have a proper physical fence! If you happen to live in an area where physical fences are forbidden (some housing associations are quite strict about that) then perhaps you shouldn't get a dog in the first place!

All the houses i know have solid fences, im talking about farmers livestock fences. With much you rotate grazing eletric fencing is the only option.

 

[twiggy2]

lead inserted in between their necks and ears

that is the correct place for a collar or slip lead, especially on lurchers and bull breeds as their lower neck is often wider than their heads meaning a collar that sits lower down can often be backed out of resulting in a loose dog

 

[ester]

It was a chicken attached to an electric fence! What part of that did you miss?

There is also an abundance of veterinary evidence to prove that a dog coming to a sudden stop (especially while running) at the end of any type of lead does do damage!

And nowhere did I state that a dog 'trained' using aversive and punitive methods would have to be 'gotten rid of'! You are now putting words in my mouth! What I did say is that such methods are dangerous. They create fear and pain. Those things can and have made dogs behaviour worse. There are plenty of studies which prove that!

You were making a point that some of the dogs cesar has dealt with, in his way, had had to be rehomed due to their subsequent behaviour.
By mentioning him at all you were somehow (though am still not sure quite how!) suggesting that the methods suggested on here were comparable and would therefore result in a worse behaviour to the point where people rehome their dogs. If not, why mention him at all, I don't really think he has brought anything to that discussion.

No need for the bold :rolleyes3: I am aware that the chicken was attached to an electric fence, a chicken, not a collar, no human involved just a chicken hanging out. I can see the similarities but I see a whole lot more differences!

I do remember him using the collar on Daddy with a caged snake, better an electric shock than a snake bite or no?
I'd think better an electric shock than dealing with many spurred roosters tbh too.

 

[ester]

Oh and re if they go through the fence dogs not coming back, IME they stand the other side and bark for assistance!

Because the yard is open into the fields, for the horses obviously the dogs could if they really wanted to access the road through the hedges, the fence stops them doing this. Obviously one should fence the whole field with chicken wire but . Or just buy a bigger dog .

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

I don't have freedom fences or what ever they are. I just walk my dogs where I keep my horses. They have sheep in the winter. And I actually don't care that he is slightly fearful of an electric fence, better that than him getting shot in a farmers sheep.feild.

Where has anyone said electric fences stop burglary or stealing dogs? They don't. They are used for livestock control......Though sheep are too bone headed to remember that it shocks them

I would suggest you spend some time on a working farm then you might have a different view on country life.

Also I do not want my dogs running up to greet people. Especially when they are as scarey looking as one of mine.

I used the stealing of and attacking of dogs as examples as to why electronic fencing for dogs isn't safe. And ester has admitted to using a 'freedom fence'. They are also known as invisible fences or to use the most appropriate term electric fences. They rely on a dog receiving a shock (via a collar) to keep them within a certain area. However, there have been plenty of cases of those types of fences failing and actually causing dogs to become aggressive.

that is the correct place for a collar or slip lead, especially on lurchers and bull breeds as their lower neck is often wider than their heads meaning a collar that sits lower down can often be backed out of resulting in a loose dog

There are such things as martingale and Greyhound collars. They are more humane than slip leads.

You were making a point that some of the dogs cesar has dealt with, in his way, had had to be rehomed due to their subsequent behaviour.
By mentioning him at all you were somehow (though am still not sure quite how!) suggesting that the methods suggested on here were comparable and would therefore result in a worse behaviour to the point where people rehome their dogs. If not, why mention him at all, I don't really think he has brought anything to that discussion.

No need for the bold :rolleyes3: I am aware that the chicken was attached to an electric fence, a chicken, not a collar, no human involved just a chicken hanging out. I can see the similarities but I see a whole lot more differences!

I do remember him using the collar on Daddy with a caged snake, better an electric shock than a snake bite or no?
I'd think better an electric shock than dealing with many spurred roosters tbh too.

Of course a human was involved! How utterly ridiculous to suggest otherwise! A dead chicken doesn't just attach itself to an electric fence now does it??

As for me mentioning CM. I used him as an example to highlight that such methods are dangerous and can result in an even more screwed up dog. Not all the dogs he failed were rehomed. There were some that only improved after a positive trainer was brought in and there was one dog who ended up having his teeth filed down. Like I said he has shocked dogs on numerous occasions and off the top of my head I can think of a couple of times when he even tried to conceal the fact that he was using a shock collar (he did this by trying to hide them under bandanas). An alternative to shocking Daddy would have been not to let him off lead in areas where snakes were present!

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Oh and re if they go through the fence dogs not coming back, IME they stand the other side and bark for assistance!

Because the yard is open into the fields, for the horses obviously the dogs could if they really wanted to access the road through the hedges, the fence stops them doing this. Obviously one should fence the whole field with chicken wire but . Or just buy a bigger dog .

Or not let the dog wander freely in the first place!

 

[EQUIDAE]

But you do NOT need an electric fence when you can have a proper physical fence! If you happen to live in an area where physical fences are forbidden (some housing associations are quite strict about that) then perhaps you shouldn't get a dog in the first place!

Could I just ask why you suggest I don't get a dog? I currently have 4 dogs (and countless fostered rescues over the years). I would NEVER do anything as irresponsible as letting my dog jump stock fencing like you are claiming you do (due to your dog being stock safe). There is the risk of the collar getting stuck and strangulation, the risk of degloving of the skin, the risk of your dog getting shot. What you are doing with your own dog is highly irresponsible - you dog does not know the difference between fences are safe/permissible to jump and ones that aren't. One day the dog will jump a fence you don't want him to jump...

YOU are the one saying your dog is jumping fences - because you let him. Highly irresponsible! Remember this thread when you fall off your mighty high horse when someone shoots your dog.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I used the stealing of and attacking of dogs as examples as to why electronic fencing for dogs isn't safe. And ester has admitted to using a 'freedom fence'. They are also known as invisible fences or to use the most appropriate term electric fences. They rely on a dog receiving a shock (via a collar) to keep them within a certain area. However, there have been plenty of cases of those types of fences failing and actually causing dogs to become aggressive.



There are such things as martingale and Greyhound collars. They are more humane than slip leads.





As for me mentioning CM. I used him as an example to highlight that such methods are dangerous and can result in an even more screwed up dog. Not all the dogs he failed were rehomed. There were some that only improved after a positive trainer was brought in and there was one dog who ended up having his teeth filed down. Like I said he has shocked dogs on numerous occasions and off the top of my head I can think of a couple of times when he even tried to conceal the fact that he was using a shock collar (he did this by trying to hide them under bandanas). An alternative to shocking Daddy would have been not to let him off lead in areas where snakes were present!

Of course we all know snakes are good at respecting boundaries
.

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Could I just ask why you suggest I don't get a dog? I currently have 4 dogs (and countless fostered rescues over the years). I would NEVER do anything as irresponsible as letting my dog jump stock fencing like you are claiming you do (due to your dog being stock safe). There is the risk of the collar getting stuck and strangulation, the risk of degloving of the skin, the risk of your dog getting shot. What you are doing with your own dog is highly irresponsible - you dog does not know the difference between fences are safe/permissible to jump and ones that aren't. One day the dog will jump a fence you don't want him to jump...

YOU are the one saying your dog is jumping fences - because you let him. Highly irresponsible! Remember this thread when you fall off your mighty high horse when someone shoots your dog.

I KNEW there was NO chance of my dog being shot! I KNEW there was no chance of him being strangled because I was there with him! I KNEW there was no chance of him cutting himself because it was smooth wiring! And that was a one off!!

At least I don't deliberately hurt my dogs in the name of 'training'!!

 

[gunnergundog]

I was playing with my dogs in my friend's garden. They cannot run after a ball while attached to a lead and there was no reason whatsoever for me to believe that anything would have happened when he jumped the fence. He was over, grabbed the ball and came back again in less than a minute! Perhaps the reason why my dogs come back to me as readily is because they associate coming back with something really pleasant like a tasty treat or playtime. They have nothing to fear from me!

Or perhaps it's because they've learnt the extent of their lead so know how far they can go before YOU jerk them back! Just a thought!

Also, a farmer with a field of pregnant ewes would take exception to your opinion that allowing your dog to jump into the field would do no damage!

Also, I think you have totally missed the psychology behind Dry Rot's idea of attaching a dead chicken to an electric fence.....the dog in that circumstance has nothing to fear either; it is akin to nature (the best teacher of all!) teaching it a lesson. No human intervention whatsoever.

Oh, and I assume that you had your dog on a harness, as opposed to a collar, when you allowed it to jump into that field ......just in case it jerked itself and did untold damage!

 

[Alec Swan]

Love_my_Lurcher, I'm doing my level best to ignore your silly, distorted and exaggerated claims and jibes, and I'm genuinely trying to see if I can find some common ground with you, and I'm currently failing.

It probably won't register with you, but at some time or other I've disagreed, some times strongly, with just about every person who currently disagrees with you, but not now. The common voice seems to speaks as one, and I'm staggered that you seem unable to grasp that when the world tells us that we're wrong, that's mostly because we are. Your continuing and I'm sorry but nonsensical statements, and your theorised 'facts' simply aren't born out by experience, at least not of those present.

I'd suggest, and with respect, that were you to research the thinking and reasoning capacities of dogs and just how limited they are, then you may come away with a different point of view, and if you were to then train a dog or two, you may well reform your view points.

Alec.

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Or perhaps it's because they've learnt the extent of their lead so know how far they can go before YOU jerk them back! Just a thought!

Also, a farmer with a field of pregnant ewes would take exception to your opinion that allowing your dog to jump into the field would do no damage!

Also, I think you have totally missed the psychology behind Dry Rot's idea of attaching a dead chicken to an electric fence.....the dog in that circumstance has nothing to fear either; it is akin to nature (the best teacher of all!) teaching it a lesson. No human intervention whatsoever.

Oh, and I assume that you had your dog on a harness, as opposed to a collar, when you allowed it to jump into that field ......just in case it jerked itself and did untold damage!

What part of the field belonging to my friend's neighbour (who I know does NOT own a gun) did you not read? And my dogs were not on their leads when they were playing as I would not have them on leads when they were running about! They also have really good recalls when they are OFF lead and they NEVER get jerked about by me!

And I have not misinterpreted DR at all. He believes that causing a dog pain deters undesired behaviour. It is also creating fear through pain! I have major issues with that!

Oh and neither of my dogs are inanimate objects so please don't refer to them as such!

 

[gunnergundog]

And I have not misinterpreted DR at all. He believes that causing a dog pain deters undesired behaviour. It is also creating fear through pain! I have major issues with that!

In which case you do not (sadly) understand nature.....

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Love_my_Lurcher, I'm doing my level best to ignore your silly, distorted and exaggerated claims and jibes, and I'm genuinely trying to see if I can find some common ground with you, and I'm currently failing.

It probably won't register with you, but at some time or other I've disagreed, some times strongly, with just about every person who currently disagrees with you, but not now. The common voice seems to speaks as one, and I'm staggered that you seem unable to grasp that when the world tells us that we're wrong, that's mostly because we are. Your continuing and I'm sorry but nonsensical statements, and your theorised 'facts' simply aren't born out by experience, at least not of those present.

I'd suggest, and with respect, that were you to research the thinking and reasoning capacities of dogs and just how limited they are, then you may come away with a different point of view, and if you were to then train a dog or two, you may well reform your view points.

Alec.

And I suggest you stop living in the dark ages of dog 'training' and start learning what modern science is PROVING!

 

[Clodagh]

Amazingly I bet DR's dogs have good recall too, in spite of being absolutely terrified of him. And everyone else on this threads. LML are you really arrogant enough to suggest that your way is the only way that works?

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

In which case you do not (sadly) understand nature.....

Except nature doesn't tie a dead bird to an electric fence for the sole purpose of a dog shocking themselves now does it?

 

[gunnergundog]

Except nature doesn't tie a dead bird to an electric fence for the sole purpose of a dog shocking themselves now does it?

No, but an adder bite does the business! Or an ewe with newly born lambs afoot, or...I could go on. Get the message?

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Amazingly I bet DR's dogs have good recall too, in spite of being absolutely terrified of him. And everyone else on this threads. LML are you really arrogant enough to suggest that your way is the only way that works?

I am not being arrogant. I am just appalled by the fact that you lot are sugar coating abuse and calling it 'training'! And DR's dogs will recall because they are afraid of having something unpleasant happening to them. Mine recall because they are happy to do so. There's a bit of a difference there!

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

And I have not misinterpreted DR at all.

He believes that causing a dog pain deters undesired behaviour.

It is also creating fear through pain! I have major issues with that!

……..!

For simplicity;

a: You have completely and possibly wilfully misunderstood the principles of dog training.

b: Cause and effect works with dogs just as it does with humans (on occasion), and it's how we learn.

c: 'Respect', in part includes fear for animals and it's an entirely different concept that humans follow. To believe otherwise is to anthropomorphise, and is a dangerous path for the trainer.

Alec.

 

[gunnergundog]

And I suggest you stop living in the dark ages of dog 'training' and start learning what modern science is PROVING!

Oooooooooo..............do tell! Opening a bottle of wine, as this looks like it could be a long night, but there again, could get bored very quickly!