Young Dog Chasing (Killing) Hens

[Love_my_Lurcher]

No, but an adder bite does the business! Or an ewe with newly born lambs afoot, or...I could go on. Get the message?

So now you are saying that people should tie dead adders and sheep to electric fences and get dogs to shock themselves to make them too afraid of going near them? Besides, just because snakes bite and sheep kick does NOT make it okay for us to hurt dogs! Get the message?

 

[Clodagh]

I am not being arrogant. I am just appalled by the fact that you lot are sugar coating abuse and calling it 'training'! And DR's dogs will recall because they are afraid of having something unpleasant happening to them. Mine recall because they are happy to do so. There's a bit of a difference there!

Have you ever tried to get a dog to recall to you using fear? No one does. You are a very strange person.

 

[gunnergundog]

So now you are saying that people should tie dead adders and sheep to electric fences and get dogs to shock themselves to make them too afraid of going near them? Besides, just because snakes bite and sheep kick does NOT make it okay for us to hurt dogs! Get the message?

You REALLY are missing the point! There is ABSOLUTELY no need to tie a dead adder to an electric fence - the live one bites and does the business WITHOUT human intervention! Likewise, the ewe with newly born lambs afoot. WE have no need to hurt dogs; NATURE does the training for us, and nature's timing in administering a negative is far superior to that of any human - sadly, it is YOU that is not getting the message.

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

For simplicity;

a: You have completely and possibly wilfully misunderstood the principles of dog training.

b: Cause and effect works with dogs just as it does with humans (on occasion), and it's how we learn.

c: 'Respect', in part includes fear for animals and it's an entirely different concept that humans follow. To believe otherwise is to anthropomorphise, and is a dangerous path for the trainer.

Alec.

Except science has PROVEN that dogs and humans are a lot more alike than previously thought and are better at reading us than our closest living biological relatives - the great apes! It should also be noted that humans are animals too.

As for cause and effect. Humans aren't exactly in the habit of shocking and yanking each other about in order to teach them something are they?

Regarding anthropomorphising. There is no such thing when dogs do in fact feel pain and fear and learn things at a similar rate as younger human children!

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Have you ever tried to get a dog to recall to you using fear? No one does. You are a very strange person.

The fear of being shocked or being suddenly jerked back is what recalls them!

 

[planete]

The fear of being shocked or being suddenly jerked back is what recalls them!

No. Fear might make them stop, it would not make them come back to the trainer. Sorry, your reasoning is beginning to unravel. You must have seen dogs who come close but never close enough to actually be caught? That is fear and it is not recall, it certainly would not be any use to a serious trainer who competes his dogs.

 

[Thistle]

LML, going back to an earlier post.

DR states the need to stop a dog dead whilst running after a ball.

This is NOT achieved by yanking a dog about, after all whatuse would a dog who only knew to run a certain distance be on the shooting field.

My own parttrained Springer was taught this using a tennis ball as a reward, a fairly common method.

First you teach the dog to sit, just by saying the command as it's bottom hits the floor (using food, treats of observation), or by blowing the whistle instead of using a word. You use a hand signal too. Then you start to use the command when out and about, asking the dog to sit/stop where appropriate.

Now, Beans my springer had a problem realising he could sit/stop away from my side. I used a tennis ball in my hand, raised as I do for normal stop command, he immediately raised his head to look, his bottom hits the floor, hey presto, a stop, ball as reward. I can now just use the raised hand and/or a whistle and he will stop wherever he is, whatever he is doing and look at me for his next command, usually a directional one to give him a clue where the dummy/game to be retrieved is.

All this is done off the lead, no yanking, no pulling with total cooperation from the dog.

There are many variations to train this command, none involve yanking and pulling.

IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE CHECK THE FACTS FIRST11111

 

[Slightlyconfused]

So what about when I let my agressive rabbit beat my collies up to stop them chasing the horse rabbit.

Ten minutes with him and they would not go in the garden.if he was out and they left my house rabbit alone to.enjoy life. They learnt the rabbit was something to avoid and leave alone without me telling them.

 

[Alec Swan]

This thread is following a path to which there can be no resolve, and I'd strongly recommend, before we become less than charitable, that we leave LmL to her own thoughts and beliefs.

AAD is generally a well mannered and kindly section of this forum and it would be better were it to remain so.

Alec.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Blimey, I am exhausted and the lurcher lady needs therapy.

 

[CorvusCorax]

'I'm tired of these ******ing snakes on this *****ing fence!'


Whoops. Wrong film. Anyone fancy a coconut?

 

[npage123]

Not popcorn time after all then.

 

[Dry Rot]

This thread is following a path to which there can be no resolve, and I'd strongly recommend, before we become less than charitable, that we leave LmL to her own thoughts and beliefs.

AAD is generally a well mannered and kindly section of this forum and it would be better were it to remain so.

Alec.

I think I came to that conclusion about twenty posts ago!

 

[ester]

Just to clarify, as you clearly didn't read properly I do not use a freedom fence, I don't even own a dog! I live on a site with one, and associated dogs...

I have to say I was sceptical but it has been interesting seeing it in use.

And as for not letting them wander freely in the first place the whole point is that they rat and alert us to presence of strangers, they can't do that in the house :rolleyes3:

I think we are probably beyond logic now though and I have feeling which dogs have the more interesting and fun life.

I wonder if LL rides?

The other time I saw cesar use a shock collar, was on a farm dog (ie one with a job he was there to do) that was obsessive over moving tyres. Obviously the concept of a dog having a job is likely problematic but electric shock (is it worth mentioning the collars vibrate too, the fence gives a warning beep when close) versus tractor tyre I know which will cause most problems. .

I thought it might help to state what happens when they go through a freedom fence, ie they don't disappear into the distance.

 

[ester]

Oh and re humans don't shock each other they really do! They even shock themselves if left to their own devices. It is all very good spouting that science is proving xyz but in which case you should be using the proper terminology for behavioural manipulation and some references might help

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014...lectrically-shocked-left-alone-their-thoughts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

I'd argue that some humans also do much worse things to each other.

 

[zigzag]

Wow I'm glad my lurcher is a bit thick She was swimming in the local pond the other day with 8 ducks didn't attempt to chase them lol

 

[EQUIDAE]

Wow I'm glad my lurcher is a bit thick She was swimming in the local pond the other day with 8 ducks didn't attempt to chase them lol

Got a love a lurcher! I have one who chases but has fantastic recall, and one who doesn't chase but who's recall is shocking - cross them and I would have the perfect dog,

 

[ester]

Wow I'm glad my lurcher is a bit thick She was swimming in the local pond the other day with 8 ducks didn't attempt to chase them lol

Was that because she couldn't swim fast enough?

 

[Leo Walker]

Or not let the dog wander freely in the first place!

Wow I'm glad my lurcher is a bit thick She was swimming in the local pond the other day with 8 ducks didn't attempt to chase them lol

Mine was retrieving in the lake one day and thought he'd paddle over and check the swans out. No bad intent, he was just curious. It was a decision he came to regret :lol: Its not funny really but I wont ever forget him paddling away like a loon with a gaggle of swans in hot pursuit :lol: He swims but hes not a natural swimmer and the swans just quietly kept pace with him while swearing vigorously at him. Hes never shown any interest since

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Have you ever tried to get a dog to recall to you using fear? No one does. You are a very strange person.

Plenty do. They get the dog to fear punishment for not coming back.

You REALLY are missing the point! There is ABSOLUTELY no need to tie a dead adder to an electric fence - the live one bites and does the business WITHOUT human intervention! Likewise, the ewe with newly born lambs afoot. WE have no need to hurt dogs; NATURE does the training for us, and nature's timing in administering a negative is far superior to that of any human - sadly, it is YOU that is not getting the message.

In which case there is no point tying a dead chicken to an electric fence! After all dead chickens don't flap about or make noise! And would you please just quit going on about nature. Nature is NOT responsible for attaching a dead bird to an electric fence just so a dog can go and shock themselves while trying to get it. A human (not nature) is solely responsible for that!

LML, going back to an earlier post.

DR states the need to stop a dog dead whilst running after a ball.

This is NOT achieved by yanking a dog about, after all whatuse would a dog who only knew to run a certain distance be on the shooting field.

My own parttrained Springer was taught this using a tennis ball as a reward, a fairly common method.

First you teach the dog to sit, just by saying the command as it's bottom hits the floor (using food, treats of observation), or by blowing the whistle instead of using a word. You use a hand signal too. Then you start to use the command when out and about, asking the dog to sit/stop where appropriate.

Now, Beans my springer had a problem realising he could sit/stop away from my side. I used a tennis ball in my hand, raised as I do for normal stop command, he immediately raised his head to look, his bottom hits the floor, hey presto, a stop, ball as reward. I can now just use the raised hand and/or a whistle and he will stop wherever he is, whatever he is doing and look at me for his next command, usually a directional one to give him a clue where the dummy/game to be retrieved is.

All this is done off the lead, no yanking, no pulling with total cooperation from the dog.

There are many variations to train this command, none involve yanking and pulling.

IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE CHECK THE FACTS FIRST11111

You are the one who needs to get your facts straight. DR clearly said that he uses a check cord to make the dog come to an abrupt stop! So, YES there is jerking about involved!

Blimey, I am exhausted and the lurcher lady needs therapy.

So I need therapy because I like to keep up-to-date with modern behavioural studies and with what science is proving with regards to the canine mind? I also need therapy because I think that abusing a dog in the name of 'training' is abhorrent and should have no place in modern society?

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Just to clarify, as you clearly didn't read properly I do not use a freedom fence, I don't even own a dog! I live on a site with one, and associated dogs...

I have to say I was sceptical but it has been interesting seeing it in use.

And as for not letting them wander freely in the first place the whole point is that they rat and alert us to presence of strangers, they can't do that in the house :rolleyes3:

I think we are probably beyond logic now though and I have feeling which dogs have the more interesting and fun life.

I wonder if LL rides?

The other time I saw cesar use a shock collar, was on a farm dog (ie one with a job he was there to do) that was obsessive over moving tyres. Obviously the concept of a dog having a job is likely problematic but electric shock (is it worth mentioning the collars vibrate too, the fence gives a warning beep when close) versus tractor tyre I know which will cause most problems. .

I thought it might help to state what happens when they go through a freedom fence, ie they don't disappear into the distance.

https://positively.com/dog-training/methods-equipment/training-equipment/electric-fences/


http://www.examiner.com/article/a-warning-about-invisible-fencing-after-dog-attacked-by-wild-animal


http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/local/dogs-reportedly-attack-man-careflight-responds/nR779/


http://www.hendersonvillelightning....failure-allowed-dog-attack-official-says.html


http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...2/jericho-dog-attack-prompts-debate/71609838/


http://happypitbull.com/owners-manual/basic-care/containment/

http://q13fox.com/2015/01/20/vicious-dog-attack-caught-on-camera/ The comments section reveals the attacked dog was kept 'behind' and invisible fence.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Up...marathon-in-Alabama-the-latest-in-a-long-line The dog in this story had escaped an invisible fence. Anything could have happened to him.


You lot also keep on saying that a shock is preferable to a bullet, a kick to the head, a bite, a tractor tyre, etc, etc, etc, etc. Well if you absolutely insist that a dog be off lead and not confined in an area/workplace that is apparently so dangerous for a dog then perhaps the dog isn't suitable for that area/workplace or perhaps you could keep the dog on lead and only let them off in suitable areas/workplaces. I live in a large sprawling town and even I have found areas that are suitable for my dogs to be off lead. I didn't just take one look round the place and think that it was too dangerous and decide that they would never be off lead (I certainly wouldn't think of letting them off anyway and scare them half to death with a shock). I have found places while out walking, on Google Earth and through word of mouth.


The dog that CM shocked on the farm could have been rehomed to a more suitable environment or simply kept away from the vehicles. To shock the dog was NOT the last resort!


And don't you dare say or imply (that because I don't shock my dogs) that they don't lead an interesting or fun life! They certainly do and at least they do enjoy several off lead walks and runs a week and don't have to fear a horrible shock!


You also wonder if I ride. If you had read one of my earlier posts properly you would have seen that I have only had childhood experiences of working with horses. So I used to ride, but haven't done so in many years. Besides, what on earth has that to do with shocking dogs and using other punitive/aversive methods on them??

Mine was retrieving in the lake one day and thought he'd paddle over and check the swans out. No bad intent, he was just curious. It was a decision he came to regret :lol: Its not funny really but I wont ever forget him paddling away like a loon with a gaggle of swans in hot pursuit :lol: He swims but hes not a natural swimmer and the swans just quietly kept pace with him while swearing vigorously at him. Hes never shown any interest since

You say it's not funny, yet you did make light of the fact that you (presumably) shocked your dog? And (if so) you did so in water??

 

[ester]

As I said I assume you struggle with the concept that some dogs are there with a job to do. And I can't imagine many farm collies doing great under rehomed circumstances :rolleyes3: or people falling over themselves to take them on.

Re. the riding it has to do with the fact that people who do ride generally do so by asserting some pressure on the animal, and where is the line between pressure and pain, it can be a bit blurred as it requires analysis of the perception within the brain as both are generated by the same receptors, just different frequency of neuron firing. Analysis of where that point actually is (rather than the extremes) is certainly difficult with animals. If you did ride I wondered whether it was only with a neck rope and if not how you squared the use of any aids.
I was doing some in hand work with my lad yesterday and I am not intending to cause him pain but I am putting pressure on his nose to get him to drop his head so that he can work optimally for his body but where that pressure becomes pain is a non definite line.

frankiecob said nothing about shocking her dog? Just that it was roundly seen off by the swans?

None of those links seem to be the peer reviewed scientific articles I was hoping for given your recurrent use of the term science.
This really wasn't a thread about the pros and cons of freedom fences, I probably wouldn't use one (never likely to own a property big enough for a start) I don't own a dog but I mentioned it because it is my only experience of ever seeing a shock collar being used.

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

As I said I assume you struggle with the concept that some dogs are there with a job to do. And I can't imagine many farm collies doing great under rehomed circumstances :rolleyes3: or people falling over themselves to take them on.

Re. the riding it has to do with the fact that people who do ride generally do so by asserting some pressure on the animal, and where is the line between pressure and pain, it can be a bit blurred as it requires analysis of the perception within the brain as both are generated by the same receptors, just different frequency of neuron firing. Analysis of where that point actually is (rather than the extremes) is certainly difficult with animals. If you did ride I wondered whether it was only with a neck rope and if not how you squared the use of any aids.
I was doing some in hand work with my lad yesterday and I am not intending to cause him pain but I am putting pressure on his nose to get him to drop his head so that he can work optimally for his body but where that pressure becomes pain is a non definite line.

frankiecob said nothing about shocking her dog? Just that it was roundly seen off by the swans?

None of those links seem to be the peer reviewed scientific articles I was hoping for given your recurrent use of the term science.
This really wasn't a thread about the pros and cons of freedom fences, I probably wouldn't use one (never likely to own a property big enough for a start) I don't own a dog but I mentioned it because it is my only experience of ever seeing a shock collar being used.

Well actually there are a lot of dogs bred for specific purposes (such as working) who do great in other aspects of life. Thousands upon thousands of Greyhounds (bred specifically for racing) go on and enjoy home life. There is a Lab on my street who was going to be shot because she wasn't a good gun dog. She is now doing extremely well. I also know of Collies who were once farm dogs, but then rehomed into more built up areas because they were deemed no longer suitable for working. So please don't use that as an excuse.

As for riding. With what you describe, that is totally different from using electric shocks!

Also, the first link does contain links to scientific studies. The other links are just a small handful of cases in which electric fencing has failed to keep dogs in and attackers out and have also failed to stop dogs from attacking people.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Mine was retrieving in the lake one day and thought he'd paddle over and check the swans out. No bad intent, he was just curious. It was a decision he came to regret :lol: Its not funny really but I wont ever forget him paddling away like a loon with a gaggle of swans in hot pursuit :lol: He swims but hes not a natural swimmer and the swans just quietly kept pace with him while swearing vigorously at him. Hes never shown any interest since

Those swans sounded nicer than my rabbit

 

[twiggy2]

Well actually there are a lot of dogs bred for specific purposes (such as working) who do great in other aspects of life. Thousands upon thousands of Greyhounds (bred specifically for racing) go on and enjoy home life.

I have to speak up here, greyhounds are not working dogs, and many are rehomed to a life on lead (no life at all in my book) a lab that is not a good gun dog is a very different kettle of fish to rehome than a good working farm collie-I also think that every dog should run loose every day (once they have had a settling in period if needed).
My lurcher would have had a much much more restricted life if she had always hunted cats, she had one shock once, I think it was a very fair exchange. I have had dogs for over 30yrs and have taught dog training for a large part of that time, I have used a collar once and have never suggested the use of one to someone else. I don't really like them, that said I have never ever met a dog with the same prey drive as that one lurcher bitch.
I also don't think it is the answer for the OP, I think the dog (pup) in this case needs supervision and/or the dogs/chickens need to be kept separate.

 

[ester]

It wasn't an excuse it was reasoning.

You seem to have completely ignored my point about the neurology (science!) again/at what point things are 'pain', which I couple with the experience that if I experience an electric shock I don't experience pain it is literally a 'shock' to me but my brain doesn't seem to interpret it as hurt just a transmission of electrical energy.
the end of a horses nose is very sensitive, it probably wouldn't need much to cause him to go ow if he could speak, he can't so .
What if I smack my horse (this does happen, and to many other horses, but then they also have electric fences).

same as you have ignored the point that humans shock each other too when you claim they didn't!

The first link only contains references for shock collars, none of the other supposedly bullying techniques that have been suggested and I think we have rather got stuck on them even though they were not suggested by most people/the real old school (sorry Alec and DR!) don't use them. I was hoping for more on other forms of punishment/making dogs scared/making behaviour worse. I do actually know the authors of one of the papers cited though

 

[Clodagh]

You say it's not funny, yet you did make light of the fact that you (presumably) shocked your dog? And (if so) you did so in water??[/QUOTE]

This hasn't copied well, but much as I am trying not to rise to the bait how on earth was it cruel for the swans to frighten the dog? No shocks were involved, apart from the dog being 'shocked' when the swans chased him. I am really laughing at how that is cruel - shoulsd we get the RSPCA to speak to the swans and stop them chasing dogs!? Love it!

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. even though they were not suggested by most people/the real old school ……..

I don't know of one competent dog trainer, old 'school' or new (assuming that there's a perceived difference), be they between 18 and 68, who would use an electric collar on a dog.

To your last paragraph; 'Punishment' is always retrospective and it achieves nothing. The trick is to have a dog respect us and 'willingly' accept direction (literal or otherwise), and we do that by having the dog focus on us and bond with us. Firstly, we need to gain (or insist upon) the dog's respect. We don't 'earn' it, as we would with humans, we earn it by being insistent, consistent and demanding it.

When the dog offers us respect and compliance, then we return that compliment by varying degrees of 'allowance'. I have two Cocker bitches here, one I could allow to sleep in my bed and she would never take advantage. The other, if I give even a quarter of an inch, she'll take a mile! The one that constantly tests the boundaries is by far the better work dog of the two.

Punishment is pointless. The dog lives for the moment and does't understand that what it did last week or two minutes ago is the reason for a beating. The beating (verbal or otherwise) is dished out as an IMMEDIATE reaction to the dog failing to listen to or to ignoring us, not for the crime which it's just committed. It isn't splitting-hairs, there's a subtle distinction. One works and the other doesn't.

Alec.

 

[ester]

Which is rather why I felt it better if the OP had used the correct terms of operant conditioning when repeatingly mentioning science which is essentially what is being talked about.
And of course is then linked to the scientific fact that positive punishment although retrospective certainly doesn't achieve 'nothing'

 

[Leo Walker]

You say it's not funny, yet you did make light of the fact that you (presumably) shocked your dog? And (if so) you did so in water??

This hasn't copied well, but much as I am trying not to rise to the bait how on earth was it cruel for the swans to frighten the dog? No shocks were involved, apart from the dog being 'shocked' when the swans chased him. I am really laughing at how that is cruel - shoulsd we get the RSPCA to speak to the swans and stop them chasing dogs!? Love it![/QUOTE]

Indeed! He shouldnt have been over near them and they let him know that in no uncertain terms. He now knows that and stays out of the way of them. Everyones happy No dogs were physically hurt, although their pride might have been a bit dented :lol: