Young horse acceptance of training

[spacefaer]

I've been pondering recently about starting a young horse's education.

This has been prompted by a lockdown acquisition who can be randomly feral under saddle. ?? When challenged by external factors, he makes his own decisions with no reference to his rider - this is due to his previous owner's production of him and not his fault as he's generally a very straightforward character to work with.

At what point in a young horse's ridden career do you expect them to accept that the rider is in charge in all situations? And not make their own decisions?

I can accept questioning but I mean when the ultimate answer is "yes" !

 

[Goldenstar]

I like horses that think for themselves but there has to be boundaries .
What sort of situations is he doing his own thing in and what does he do ?

Sky had issues in traffic it’s taken nine months to show him he can trust me to take charge when he sees something big and scary .

 

[ycbm]

At what point in a young horse's ridden career do you expect them to accept that the rider is in charge in all situations? And not make their own decisions?

When I sit on it.

Though I might allow it to believe it has some choice, and i don't want to ride a zombie, the reality is that it doesn't.
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[Goldenstar]

Horses should do some thinking for themselves Unless you are Michael Jung no one wants to gallop to a fence on a horse waiting for you to tell it to take off .
It’s a question of boundaries and a bit of give and take .

 

[ycbm]

Horses should do some thinking for themselves Unless you are Michael Jung no one wants to gallop to a fence on a horse waiting for you to tell it to take off .
It’s a question of boundaries and a bit of give and take .

That's kind of what I meant by the horse believing it has some choice. But the choice it makes has to coincide with what I want.
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[spacefaer]

That's kind of what I meant by the horse believing it has some choice. But the choice it makes has to coincide with what I want.
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Absolutely.

I want him to work with me, but if he comes across a question he doesn't know the answer to, I want him to refer back to me, rather than making a unilateral decision.

 

[paddi22]

it can be so difficult when they have been started badly. what do you mean when you say 'he makes his own decisions'?

 

[spacefaer]

it can be so difficult when they have been started badly. what do you mean when you say 'he makes his own decisions'?

For example, he's not a massive fan of hacking - hadn't done a lot before I got him and doesn't see the point. He's also quite herd minded.
I met a woman on our quiet lane with two loose terriers. She crouched down in a gateway to hold them, but in crouching, temporarily vanished from sight. As he went forward and saw her again, he span and tried to go home ie back to his mates. He took a lot of persuading to carry on with the hack with me, rather than to go back to the herd at home. He made the decision where he'd rather be.

 

[Upthecreek]

I expect the horse to accept I am in charge from the start. If not I would go right back to basics and re-back. I don’t mind a horse having an opinion, it’s not a machine after all, but it must accept what I want without putting up a huge fight when I ask. Not to do so is rude and no basis for a successful partnership in my opinion.

 

[tristar]

i let them think its their idea, then heap praise on them

but i do months of prep with youngsters, i want the end result to be suitable for any one to ride, if poss, because you never know where the horse will end up, so main thing for me is that they understand that when you ask for something, [politely] the bell rings and they think `i know what to do` sort of automatically,

habit is the greatest thing to teach a baby horse, good habits, and build on that, not over facing in the early stages and inviting rebellion, whether its out hacking or schooling

 

[scruffyponies]

I want a horse to be confident when it knows what to do, and trusting when it doesn't.
'knows what to do' should include any situation where I have given it an instruction... ridden or in hand, as well as routine activities.

Generally, a horse which doesn't do as it's told is showing a lack of confidence in the situation and the rider.

 

[milliepops]

it can be so difficult when they have been started badly.

This.
I've had nothing but re-starters for years now and I've come to the conclusion that sometimes its prudent to change your aims in order to not let them end up in the position of making their own bad choices. So I have one that doesn't hack solo, just no point trying because while she sometimes gets round without incident, it will frequently end up with me not making the choices. She's totally ruined by her previous owners in that respect. She has other strengths that we play to.

So depends how badly wrong they've gone in the first place. I don't think you can fix everything.

 

[Goldenstar]

So he sounds quite like Sky somehow he thought if he saw something scary it was ok to ram his head up and run away .It did take time but I have him where I want him now .
I would have thought it’s early days with this horse he needs time to develop consistent reactions to your aids .
I will happily spend two years getting to that point .

 

[Nudibranch]

I never think in terms of decision making and questions...its just a personal thing I find a bit annoying and anthropomorphic ?
Some youngsters just nap and spook more ime. Some are bolder. The one I have now has taken a little while to get to the stage I want her to be at; she was just always like that, but once we turned that corner she proved to be a really super young horse. They just need the time and the experiences to show them who is "in charge" and can be "trusted" - again, not terms I especially like, but hopefully making the point.

 

[Goldenstar]

Trust is extremely important in training horses who have developed undesirable reactions .
Trust is built with time and consistent riding .
You need horses to take good choices ,they need to confident in their rider to try a change from undesirable reactions they have learnt .

 

[milliepops]

I never think in terms of decision making and questions...its just a personal thing I find a bit annoying and anthropomorphic ?
Some youngsters just nap and spook more ime. Some are bolder. The one I have now has taken a little while to get to the stage I want her to be at; she was just always like that, but once we turned that corner she proved to be a really super young horse. They just need the time and the experiences to show them who is "in charge" and can be "trusted" - again, not terms I especially like, but hopefully making the point.

Hmm. Normally I would be one to steer away from anthropomorphism but I think that denying that horses are capable of making their own decisions reduces them to robots that just need reprogramming, if only it was that simple, haha.

My non-hacker still has to do decision making in the arena, at the moment she's learning to passage and her decisions range from rearing because she doesn't want to try, to proper knees-up bouncy passage steps. There is no "in charge" with her, you can't be in charge, it's always on a knife edge. I know she trusts me because of her other reactions - trust is a strong part of our relationship. but In Charge is not in either of our vocabulary, if she feels that she hasn't agreed to something then the cooperation goes out of the window.

my TB is one who accepts In Charge and I then agree that a mixture of trust and accepting being bossed is the ideal way to train him. Some are just retraining reactions, others are far more complex IMO.

 

[scats]

For example, he's not a massive fan of hacking - hadn't done a lot before I got him and doesn't see the point. He's also quite herd minded.
I met a woman on our quiet lane with two loose terriers. She crouched down in a gateway to hold them, but in crouching, temporarily vanished from sight. As he went forward and saw her again, he span and tried to go home ie back to his mates. He took a lot of persuading to carry on with the hack with me, rather than to go back to the herd at home. He made the decision where he'd rather be.

One of my mares was a spook and spin type when she arrived two years ago (age 8). She has only ever hacked in company prior to me getting her but I expect everything to hack alone so we spent a lot of time the first few months spinning and legging it at ridiculous things. It’s been a frustrating habit to break, but I am lucky we have off road hacking so I could afford to battle it out with her a bit.
She’s still prone to trying to take matters into her own hands if she has her daft head on, but I know her like the back of my hand now and I can take back the control pretty easily. The spin and run thing has pretty much stopped. However, I would still be very wary of hacking her on the roads due to how she can be. She would plod happily behind a schoolmaster no problem, but on her own she could potentially do something daft. Maybe she will improve as times goes on, but I suspect this is just her. She is a very spooky, reactive type who is often on high alert. We were at a chaser course today and she spotted a combine in a field some distance away and was absolutely fixated on it, whereas my friend’s TB didn’t even seem to notice. I got her attention back to me as best I could, but she was still keeping it on her radar.

 

[ester]

I'm not sure the 20 year old or the 27 year old have accepted this yet

 

[Caol Ila]

My 27 year old humors me, allowing me think I'm making decisions. But the truth is that I probably don't.

 

[Mule]

My 27 year old humors me, allowing me think I'm making decisions. But the truth is that I probably don't.

 

[Nudibranch]

You don't need to view them as robots to differentiate behaviours. I think reacting is a more appropriate description for, well, reactive behaviour. Spooking, napping, behaviours related to pain, fear or lack of understanding, are reactions. The horse is driven by instinct. They overcome their instincts and learn to follow the aids. But I would say any actual conscious decision making is more appropriately applied to things like choosing to mutual groom, or seek shade, or wander over for a nose. Or in different circumstances under saddle, i.e. when calm and engaged. So giving my horse her head when riding over boggy fell, judging a stride popping a log or whatever. The actions discussed earlier are reactions, not decisions. Imo decision making implies a level of naughtiness which may well not be there.

 

[Goldenstar]

My 27 year old humors me, allowing me think I'm making decisions. But the truth is that I probably don't.

Sounds like Fatty

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Mim is very independent and confident and I don’t think she’d take kindly to being told what to do if she really didn’t want to do something.

I take the view that I don’t set her up to get into an argument. I don’t ask her to do things for the sake of it, or repeat exercises endlessly, and she is generally happy to go along with whatever madness I propose as long as it is interesting.

She probably doesn’t recognise that I am ‘in charge’ all the time but she also looks to me to protect her when things are scary so external factors usually push her to look for more direction from me, not less.

I probably am in control only by virtue of that alone, actually. I do so much handling with her on the ground though, and I think it really helps to build that trust.

 

[tristar]

Mim is very independent and confident and I don’t think she’d take kindly to being told what to do if she really didn’t want to do something.

I take the view that I don’t set her up to get into an argument. I don’t ask her to do things for the sake of it, or repeat exercises endlessly, and she is generally happy to go along with whatever madness I propose as long as it is interesting.

She probably doesn’t recognise that I am ‘in charge’ all the time but she also looks to me to protect her when things are scary so external factors usually push her to look for more direction from me, not less.

I probably am in control only by virtue of that alone, actually. I do so much handling with her on the ground though, and I think it really helps to build that trust.

very well put, this captures a lot of the feelings around building a partnership, and not breaking down the horse physically by unnecessary repetition
the fragile relationship, i won`t push you too hard, you don`t frighten me, we will go through this together thing

equestrian tact

 

[ycbm]

You don't need to view them as robots to differentiate behaviours. I think reacting is a more appropriate description for, well, reactive behaviour. Spooking, napping, behaviours related to pain, fear or lack of understanding, are reactions. The horse is driven by instinct. They overcome their instincts and learn to follow the aids. But I would say any actual conscious decision making is more appropriately applied to things like choosing to mutual groom, or seek shade, or wander over for a nose. Or in different circumstances under saddle, i.e. when calm and engaged. So giving my horse her head when riding over boggy fell, judging a stride popping a log or whatever. The actions discussed earlier are reactions, not decisions. Imo decision making implies a level of naughtiness which may well not be there.

I might have agreed with you before I owned Jazz. I was riding one day on my arena, which was surrounded by an electric fence. I closed it every time i rode him or he would just leave the arena and take me back into the yard. One day, he decided he had he'd enough. He went to the 'gateway' and stopped. He looked at the fence for a few moments. Then he clearly made a decision to take the electric shock in order to go where he wanted, and he marched through the wire completely deliberately after sizing up the pros and cons and coming to a decision. I still miss his character!
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[Michen]

I think there is an element of give and take. For a year Boggle was somewhat squished ie there was no maybe, or letting him think he’d made decisions. It was absolutely clear cut black and white. But that refers to behaviour ie napping, spinning etc. Never jumping where he was always “on side” from day 1- never has he been reprimanded for anything jumping wise. Now we are a complete team and if he wants to prat around a bit I generally just ignore him because I know the end result is not going to be dangerous, and will still be what I want (ie go past this bin).