Young horse bucking in canter

[Wheels]

I would think that hes put on condition and muscle since you started him so going back to the first saddle (if it fit then) may not be the best idea as it will quite probably be too narrow now.

 

[Michen]

I would think that hes put on condition and muscle since you started him so going back to the first saddle (if it fit then) may not be the best idea as it will quite probably be too narrow now.

?? Yes- I am aware of that- but he was fitted to both saddles at the same time so it’s not going to be any narrower for him than the one he’s currently in. Originally I was going to buy him that saddle but in a shorter length.

 

[Wheels]

Sorry I am not sure I get why you would put him in a saddle that was fitted at the same time as logically if one no longer fits then the other is unlikely to either and you might compound the problem further.

 

[Michen]

Sorry I am not sure I get why you would put him in a saddle that was fitted at the same time as logically if one no longer fits then the other is unlikely to either and you might compound the problem further.

Because it may be that the saddle he’s currently in never really fitted? One saddlers opinion doesn’t necessarily mean it did fit even at the time. We all know how variable it can be. Also- surely you have had a horse before that has been deemed to fit two separate saddles but went better/preferred another? Saddle fitting is not an exact science. It doesn’t follow a textbook. At the time he wasn’t being ridden under saddle in the school, so the fitting was as best as we could do with what we had.

I hardly think trying another saddle just to see whether it makes an obvious difference for 20 mins is going to harm him. He will either buck more or worse (fine- off we get), buck less or not buck at all.

 

[palo1]

Can you get a saddle fitter that you know and trust to have a look at both saddles/advise? I would do that before physio as would suspect a saddle issue. Once that was checked/sorted then I would get a physio if needed.

 

[Michen]

Can you get a saddle fitter that you know and trust to have a look at both saddles/advise? I would do that before physio as would suspect a saddle issue. Once that was checked/sorted then I would get a physio if needed.

The one I know and trust the most is the one who fitted them originally (not to say she did a bad job, as I say she had to work with a horse she couldn’t properly view under saddle and he may well have changed shape a lot). That said I’ve only used her a few times as Bog was just so easy re saddle!

 

[ponies4ever]

my last baby had her saddle checked every 2 months or so and for the first three checks she went up at least a size each time so defo worth getting it checked again

 

[Michen]

my last baby had her saddle checked every 2 months or so and for the first three checks she went up at least a size each time so defo worth getting it checked again

Thanks- definitely worth doing. He’s slimmed down but gained muscle.

 

[maya2008]

I have had saddles fit for two months or less with youngsters before they needed adjusting/changing. My current set of youngsters reminded me quite soon after backing why I went treeless last time I had young horses - so we have done so again. Treed is nicer but I will wait until they mature! My friends with similar aged horses are regular customers of the saddle fitter and have gone through several saddles!

So it could easily be saddle fit...

 

[Jellymoon]

just read you post and it made me think back over the years to any of mine that have been through a bucking phase...and I’ve just realised every single one was related to saddle fit. Once the saddle was sorted, the bucking stopped without fail.

There were two that had physical issues as well (both hocks and associated back pain) and even they stopped bucking when their saddles were sorted. (Incidentally, their physical issues manifested themselves while jumping. Eg backing off, over-jumping, sideways into jumps etc)

I had one very sharp, exuberant one, who also stopped bucking when his saddle was sorted. Sadly it didn’t stop the plunging, spooking, spinning and trying to gallop off at any opportunity...!!

Sadly getting the saddle ‘sorted’ is not always as easy as it sounds. Over the years some very nice and seemingly good saddle fitters have had to be ditched, and lots of money has been spent. If he’s very troubled by his saddle, then he may prefer the well-known treeless brand that is popular on this forum!!

 

[Michen]

Thanks guys. I just popped my friends equipe on him and it looked really nice. I hate riding in them though! Happily saddle fitter is on yard today so am going to get her to have a look!!!

 

[Regandal]

I had saddle problems, it turns out that he needs a saddle with short points. Very expensive trial and error!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Yep saddle issues were behind any of Skylla's explosiveness as a baby (only two occasions but they were pretty spectacular ), she preferred a technically too wide saddle when the tree points were longer (kent and master).

She now has two made to measure (after she got to 6, she had to lump it before then ) so is a happy bunny in a 'normally' fitting saddle now.

 

[Michen]

Yep saddle issues were behind any of Skylla's explosiveness as a baby (only two occasions but they were pretty spectacular ), she preferred a technically too wide saddle when the tree points were longer (kent and master).

She now has two made to measure (after she got to 6, she had to lump it before then ) so is a happy bunny in a 'normally' fitting saddle now.

Oh god don’t tell me that!!!

Bear is not getting a made to measure ?

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Oh god don’t tell me that!!!

Bear is not getting a made to measure ?

Lol, she was fine with the 'too wide' K&M for a fair while but I didn't like it! The only reason I changed was it did nothing to support me and put me in a chair seat, she had to then have new and customized for her as she is a truly odd shape!

Though the purple jump saddle happened by accident ...

 

[Michen]

Saddler not convinced it’s a saddle issue, still seems to fit nicely. Didn’t have time to ride in them though. We are going to try the equipe as there’s a possibility the 17 monarch is a bit long now his shoulders have bulked up and it’s potentially sitting a bit further back. Clutching at straws a bit though! The equipe has more compact panels so seems to sit a bit shorter although it’s not a perfect fit tree wise but not enough to cause offence. Didn’t have time to ride so will he tried later and if he’s still bucking I’ll do groundwork until physio comes next Wednesday.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I'd definitely try another saddle, the K&M we put on Skylla was the 'perfect' fit in a medium gullet, until she lawn darted me in spectacular fashion as she just didn't like it (she was fine in the MW gullet)! Saddles can be a good fit but the horse still doesn't like it for whatever reason...

 

[Michen]

I'd definitely try another saddle, the K&M we put on Skylla was the 'perfect' fit in a medium gullet, until she lawn darted me in spectacular fashion as she just didn't like it (she was fine in the MW gullet)! Saddles can be a good fit but the horse still doesn't like it for whatever reason...

Yes exactly. That was my point earlier to Wheels, you can’t tell a horse what they do and do fit. It’s subjective to both the horse and the fitter, hence why I was also going to try the Albion even if The saddle was the issue as whilst they both fitted at the time maybe he simply likes one better. I will try the equipe first though as the Albion is Too long, so wouldn’t want to do more than a quick sit

Also shows you can’t tell if a saddle is in balance or not from a photo!

 

[Wheels]

Yes exactly. That was my point earlier to Wheels, you can’t tell a horse what they do and do fit. It’s subjective to both the horse and the fitter, hence why I was also going to try the Albion even if The saddle was the issue as whilst they both fitted at the time maybe he simply likes one better. I will try the equipe first though as the Albion is Too long, so wouldn’t want to do more than a quick sit

erm slightly patronising!

I am a qualified saddle fitter by the way although I don't currently practise.

From your description in this thread there is a likelihood that your horse is suffering some sort of pain possibly from the saddle, therefore it is not ethical to ride the horse in another saddle until you are sure there is no pain in the back.

I agree of course that horses can prefer one saddle over another, I have seen it many times, but that is an experiment to be done when you are sure there is no pain or discomfort. Plonking another saddle on just to try and see if the horse bucks more or less, apart from the ethics, doesn't really tell you anything. If the horse bucks less it might tell you that the horse prefers this saddle or that it fits better or merely that it is not putting excess pressure in the same places as the other saddle and that it neither fits better or worse but has given some temporary relief. Of course then another few weeks down the line things might not go so well. If the horse bucks the same, all that tells you is that the amount of pain is the same. If the horse bucks more then it does not mean the saddle fits less well, only that at that particular moment the horse is in a bit more pain.

Did your saddle fitter do a back exam and trot up? How are they sure it's not the saddle if you didn't ride?

I'm glad to hear that you are just going to do groundwork until the physio has been.

 

[Roxylola]

Supercob got more and more arsey over winter from bucking in canter to bucking much of the time generally, could be worked through it and would pack in eventually but was getting worse. Started a gut supplement and the difference was night and day. Scoped for ulcers, grade 2 - treated and since then he has the odd jolly buck, and the odd little bit tight because it's hard buck but that's him and it's his go to, not a pain response.
At the time we started the gut supplement we gave it in mollichop because that was all we had. Within 20 minutes of the feed he started quivering and triggered major concerns for me that he was going to tie up. We switched to alfa/hifi added vitamin e and magnesium and now also manage as for pssm, we never tested - if it looks like a duck... and hes much softer in his muscles now and doesnt have the quivering reactions except rarely when he gets overexcited loading.
We've also since changed saddles which has made a further improvement. He'll never not buck, hes a cob and sometimes gets a bit jolly but I can put my leg on without explosive behaviour now

 

[Michen]

erm slightly patronising!

I am a qualified saddle fitter by the way although I don't currently practise.

From your description in this thread there is a likelihood that your horse is suffering some sort of pain possibly from the saddle, therefore it is not ethical to ride the horse in another saddle until you are sure there is no pain in the back.

I agree of course that horses can prefer one saddle over another but that is an experiment to be done when you are sure there is no pain or discomfort. Plonking another saddle on just to try and see if the horse bucks more or less, apart from the ethics, doesn't really tell you anything. If the horse bucks less it might tell you that the horse prefers this saddle or that it fits better or merely that it is not putting excess pressure in the same places as the other saddle and that it neither fits better or worse but has given some temporary relief. Of course then another few weeks down the line things might not go so well. If the horse bucks the same, all that tells you is that the amount of pain is the same. If the horse bucks more then it does not mean the saddle fits less well, only that at that particular moment the horse is in a bit more pain.

Did your saddle fitter do a back exam and trot up? How are they sure it's not the saddle if you didn't ride?

I'm glad to hear that you are just going to do groundwork until the physio has been.

I would NEVER expect or want a saddle fitter to do a "back exam". That should be done by the relevant qualified person and a professional saddle fitter would say as much (as mine did earlier).

Sorry but if I put another saddle on and the horse doesn't buck- IMO that tells me quite a lot! It doesn't negate the need for a physio, as clearly it has caused an issue, but it also means that even though the other one has deemed to fit it's not going to go back on post physio.

I personally don't see the issue with trying another saddle to see if it gives a clear cut answer or no answer, in conjunction with getting a physio out. I never said I was going to try the saddle, and if he doesn't buck crack on as usual and not get a physio. But hey, maybe I am just not an ethical owner! It's also possible he is in pain from something unrelated to the saddle, so you could say doing ground work is unethical as well.

But hey, if trying another saddle on Bear for 20 mins to gauge his reaction is the most unethical thing I do to my horses- I think they will be ok

 

[Wheels]

OK michen, we will leave it there

 

[Michen]

Supercob got more and more arsey over winter from bucking in canter to bucking much of the time generally, could be worked through it and would pack in eventually but was getting worse. Started a gut supplement and the difference was night and day. Scoped for ulcers, grade 2 - treated and since then he has the odd jolly buck, and the odd little bit tight because it's hard buck but that's him and it's his go to, not a pain response.
At the time we started the gut supplement we gave it in mollichop because that was all we had. Within 20 minutes of the feed he started quivering and triggered major concerns for me that he was going to tie up. We switched to alfa/hifi added vitamin e and magnesium and now also manage as for pssm, we never tested - if it looks like a duck... and hes much softer in his muscles now and doesnt have the quivering reactions except rarely when he gets overexcited loading.
We've also since changed saddles which has made a further improvement. He'll never not buck, hes a cob and sometimes gets a bit jolly but I can put my leg on without explosive behaviour now

That's interesting- thanks! Bear is on a tiny bit of pink mash and Equimins balancer, salt etc. He looks really well but of course can't rule out ulcers and he is a sensitive little soul in many ways.

Will see where we get to in the next week or so, hopefully it will be an easy fix!

 

[Roxylola]

That's interesting- thanks! Bear is on a tiny bit of pink mash and Equimins balancer, salt etc. He looks really well but of course can't rule out ulcers and he is a sensitive little soul in many ways.

Will see where we get to in the next week or so, hopefully it will be an easy fix!

Supercob looked fab - didnt look ulcery at all. And grade 2 isnt awful in the overall scheme of things but he made his opinion very clear that it was bad enough

 

[TPO]

A saddle fitter should always carry out an examination of the horse's back along with static and dynamic observations prior to fitting, or checking the fit of, any saddle.

 

[Michen]

A saddle fitter should always carry out an examination of the horse's back along with static and dynamic observations prior to fitting, or checking the fit of, any saddle.

A saddle fitter should not be carrying out an examination like a physio does, e.g palpation or diagnosing (or not) soreness. Thats why you used trained physios.

 

[TPO]

A saddle fitter should not be carrying out an examination like a physio does, e.g palpation or diagnosing (or not) soreness. Thats why you used trained physios.

A qualified physio shouldn't be diagnosing anything ?

Yes a saddle fitter should be examining and palpating a back prior to fitting or checking the fit of a saddle.

 

[GoldenWillow]

I have a cob who is very opinionated about saddles and what he considers fits or not. I've had him since he was 3 1/2, his first saddle obviously fitted well as never had any problems at all and hadn't realised how sensitive to saddle fit he was. I discovered this when on a saddle check saddler thought the flocking needed altered slightly, did this on site and when I got on we hadn't walked 10m before he did handstand bucks, I did utter the words he's ever did that before. We tried a few things all with him bucking then flocking was adjusted back and immediately happy pony. I had never met quite such a reaction before. He will vary from full on bucks, to humping if he considers the saddle not to fit.

If you have saddles to try that are suitable it's definitely worth while trying them and seeing if there is any difference in him. I have a Christ Lamfelle pad that is my go to diagnostic to check if it is saddle or other problem with him now.

 

[Michen]

A qualified physio shouldn't be diagnosing anything ?

Yes a saddle fitter should be examining and palpating a back prior to fitting or checking the fit of a saddle.

"diagnosing" soreness, or identifying it, not necessarily the cause for it.

I disagree, and will always use the relevant qualified person for my horses back. Saddler fitters do not go through the extensive training (I'm sure they get some- but hardly comparable to that of a physio or chiro etc) to correctly palpate and identify soreness in a horses back. Every fitter I have used has been very clear that any suspicion of soreness needs to be checked by the relevant person.

Of course that doesn't mean they don't look over the horses back for signs of uneven muscle tone which could affect the fit of a saddle etc etc, but no- I don't expect them to be applying any significant pressure.

 

[IrishMilo]

I use a brilliant fitter (one of the best in my area) and she feels along the back and palps any time she comes and I mention horse seems to be sore. I wouldn't expect anything less tbh - she needs to know which areas might correlate to the saddle fitting poorly. For actual work, I use a physio. Horse in my avatar bucks for a living. He does have some undiagnosed issues we're working to find with vet (just about to start Omeprazole) so has been out of work a while, but once they realise it's an option it's very difficult to stop. Luckily I don't mind it but it would be a real arse-ache if I did. Feel free to PM me, I have loads of videos if you want to compare signs.