Young horse bucking - second instalment

SEL

SEL

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I posted about 7 weeks ago about my horse bucking - she'd had me off pretty badly and I was after some advice. It turned out I had a problem with my saddle and given this is my PSSM horse (eg v sensitive) I put it down to that.

In the past 7 weeks she's had 2 sessions of bodywork including an intensive physio session and a new saddle fitted. She's completely sound if underdeveloped down one side. Some of the under development has always been there, but probably hasn't been helped by the saddle. We've been doing lots of straight line work and she's been feeling pretty good.

Today we had a tantrum and the bucking started again. I'd love to try and look for 'things' to blame it on but if I'm really honest I think its mainly bad manners and I could really do with some advice on how to take things forward with her.

She tends to have a meltdown in the following situations;

NOT GETTING MY OWN WAY!
- today was a nap to home which I corrected. So she had a strop, yanked her head sideways, jumped into canter and put in a big buck. I growled and booted her at which point we had an even bigger buck. She comes up in front first & puts a lot of energy into them. I get a split second warning because she comes behind the contact suddenly and then whoosh - we're up and down.

PANIC
- I'm a bit more forgiving of these situations. When she comes across something that puts her out of her comfort zone (eg new road signs which were there yesterday) she tries to run for home. Pulling her up results in the rear / buck behaviour. Its worse than the napping because she's in full on flight mode and its very, very hard to snap her out of it.

She is better (at least at the panic stuff) when with a babysitter but we've really only got one horse on the yard that can do that job and he's semi retired so can't come out with us all the time. Although we have some teenagers who will happily get on the ex-racers I won't risk putting them on mine - she's in a different league than some fizzy TB and I'd never forgive myself if they got hurt.

I'm just after ideas really. She's far from the first bucking youngster I've had to deal with but she's a bit more difficult than 'sit up & kick on' - that tends to lead to an even bigger explosion!
 
Sounds like you may have to go back to basics - in a safe environment (a school) until you have brakes and forward established - not in a good enough way but in an instant way - before taking her out anywhere. I know this can be frustrating but it may save you getting frustrated (or worse, hurt) and at the same time build up her confidence in you as a trustworthy leader. Often once a pattern is established, sometimes through pain, it can become a learned behaviour and these are harder to fix.
 
understand from your previous thread that your school isn't the best, OP.
What kind of hacking do you have?

Your description reminds me a bit of mine, the stropping and panicking is not an easy mix, though mine rears rather than bucks, but I still get the tanking off.
I was lucky that I had somewhere I could long rein, so I addressed the stropping like that. Had several benefits: trained her to the voice, which I still use now daily, I could always 'win' (not that I think horses understand win/lose like we do, but it built my confidence in my abilities), I was out of danger because she couldn't tip me off. Now I know mine wouldn't kick me... so only suggesting this if you have the same feeling about yours.

With the panicking, I had to teach mine to stay focussed and that had helped her enormously. Mine gets her knickers in a twist about a *thing*, say a bin or a sign or a leaf, but then very quickly gets generally hysterical and is no longer thinking about the thing, then her brain goes *poof* and I've lost her.
If I can keep her attention on whatever she first got worried about, then she remains more curious than panicking, and I trained her to touch things she had spooked at, which is a useful response. It's difficult to start with because they can switch in a flash between focused/hysterical.

Dunno if that sounds remotely useful - essentially I think you need to address the bucking indirectly, by dealing with her other behaviour. Mine is still a bit nappy but very rarely stands up these days (and only bucks when she gets her legs in a knot with her flying changes, :lol:)
 
Does she ever buck, nap or rear in the school or is it just a hacking out thing? Not that i have any words of wisdom other than it proves it isn't pain related if she only does it out hacking. I am not the most confident rider so if i was in your shoes i would probably pay an instructor to hack her out a few times. She may need to get her confidence from her rider and maybe unitentionally her recent outbursts have knocked yours a bit which is affecting hers? I hope you find a solution x
 
Our school is tiny and with an awful surface - she doesn't buck in there and her PSSM makes it really hard to get her warmed up enough to work on what is basically a 20m circle.

It is outside only where the tantrums happen and I actually think I'm getting more of them because she's getting more confident. She used to look to me all the time for guidance whereas now I feel like I've got a stroppy teenager on my hands - one of those teenagers who knows everything right up until the minute they've got themselves in trouble.....

Hacking tends to be across big open fields. This morning's meltdown was in one of the yard's fields that is being rested and was absolutely, definitely a nap that then resulted in a strop when she didn't get her own way. I would like bridle paths with high hedges either side and no view of home - but instead we have fabulous gallops across big fields.

Milliepops - your description of 'poof & she's gone' is exactly how I feel. Its the reason I jumped off when the roadsign meltdown happened because she was beyond reasoning and at least on the floor she can circle around me until she calms down (sort of). I long rein her in the school quite happily but last time I tried up the lane she panicked and we ended up with a mess of lines around her legs. She's quite a lot further on in her education so perhaps its time for another go.

I like your suggestions. Anything to try and get her out of the panic mode and listen to me. She does listen to my voice but I'm also pretty sure she can sense the oh **** when she starts to react which definitely isn't helping! The stupid thing is she's actually pretty nosey and likes to go up and look at things. Once she's happy with something she's got it for good - but I also think that once she's got a bad habit its tough to break it.

I don't have an instructor to put on her. I haven't got transport at the moment and didn't want to invest in a box until I knew the horse was going to be rideable. I may well take the plunge at Xmas and get her out to somewhere with better facilities and see how we get on. The horse has an incredibly soft mouth and when we popped someone up on her on the lunge when she was being backed he managed to pull her over backwards when she had a baby wobble (& it was a really little wobble) so I'm pretty cautious about who gets on her. I'm not on any level saying there aren't better riders than me out there - most of this forum are in that category - but they aren't at my yard sadly!!

I may well stick to schooling in the field if the weather holds because at least if she dumps me there we're at home and I can get back on and work through it. My YO has offered to pop on the old polo pony (who is not bothered by anything apart from the hunt) and take us on the lead rein past the road signs. The polo pony is used to leading other horses and I know will completely ignore madam if she has a meltdown.

My other alternative is just to superglue myself to the saddle, go out hunting for the day and have the what doesn't kill will cure mentality. Nope - not that brave!!
 
You're stuck between a rock and a hard place.. don't take this the wrong way but I think you need to find a way to be more confident in yourself and to be able to provide leadership for her. That's not domination, and it's also not pussyfooting around her, but showing her the way she should behave in the world, quietly taking control and being able to supply her with confidence to do the right thing.

Do the right thing is actually something I started to say to Kira, because it takes away the feeling of negativity that you might have and might be transmitting, it's very subtle but it's more positive than saying 'don't spook' etc ;)

getting really good voice cues is so helpful, I have a shrill "trot!" that gets me out of lots of trouble, I make a smoochy kiss sound to go faster, we also have "gaaaaaalop" and I make a Brrrrrr sound when I want her to stop. it seems to cut through the mess she gets into if I do it quickly enough.

Totally understand you being fussy about who you put up on her, mine also didn't respond well to the 'just get on with it' treatment and I had some help when very short of time in the winter from someone who had her own version of NH, not affiliated to any 'brand', just very horse centred and willing to spend time working it out. Anyone with good old fashioned horse sense and patience would have done.
 
Milliepops - I have definitely had my confidence rocked by this one. Age doesn't help. I don't bounce any more.

I think I'll have an ask around and get reconmendations trainer wise. I'm more than happy for a 'pro' to hop on board, just need to make sure they understand the whole PSSM warm up stuff first.

Obviously pony will then behave like an angel & everyone will think I'm mad....
 
It constantly surprises me that people are prepared to have these 'normal' youngster battles on the road. To be blunt it's just not a safe thing to do. If you can't find off road hacking then perhaps you need to send the horse to boot camp or a yard where you can have these discussions in a safer environment before someone gets seriously injured.
 
Are you sure the PSSM is under control? Freddy has a huge buck when he is in pain and unable to move forwards which makes him appear nappy and grumpy. In reality when the PSSM is under control he is bombproof and very happy.

You also say that the muscles of one side are underdeveloped, has a vet looked at this? Could there be another physical problem that is not allowing the horse to work evenly?

If it's not a physical issue I also worry that you will struggle to teach this youngster without proper facilities. Can you move yards! Can you send the horse away to someone experienced?
 
My young horse is naughty because he's scared to be away from his home and mates. He's had a saddle and vet check, now when I find someone good and willing to do it I plan to get his backside kicked into gear. We don't ask a great deal from them in return for all we provide for them, IIWY I'd get a good pro in to try to install a bit of a work ethic and a change of attitude. Getting dropped once or twice isn't acceptable and horse needs to learn this. Getting dropped all the time means get a better horse IMO.
 
I've had D on oil for a couple of weeks and she is jumping out her skin. Literally can't hold her just hacking out. I've only ever needed to bit up for anything she considered hunting, not just hacking out at home! So possibly could be that. I can't decide whether I like it or not with her :D
 
blitznbobs said:
It constantly surprises me that people are prepared to have these 'normal' youngster battles on the road. To be blunt it's just not a safe thing to do. If you can't find off road hacking then perhaps you need to send the horse to boot camp or a yard where you can have these discussions in a safer environment before someone gets seriously injured.
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I wouldn't dream of taking her on the roads. We have a 2 min walk down the end of the farm lane to the start of the bridle path. Thames water are currently investigating mysterious puddles and have dug holes and put lots of signs up.
 
Booboos said:
Are you sure the PSSM is under control? Freddy has a huge buck when he is in pain and unable to move forwards which makes him appear nappy and grumpy. In reality when the PSSM is under control he is bombproof and very happy.

You also say that the muscles of one side are underdeveloped, has a vet looked at this? Could there be another physical problem that is not allowing the horse to work evenly?

If it's not a physical issue I also worry that you will struggle to teach this youngster without proper facilities. Can you move yards! Can you send the horse away to someone experienced?
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Vets & physio all say the muscle weakness is no worse than what they see in a lot of 1 sided horses. I don't think the PSSM is under control, although Liverpool have helped me with the diet and have also come back to me with some drug options so it's easier to draw the line between behaviour and pain. I think that's the next step really, although I had a bit of an ask around today re:trainers.

Plus tonight I didn't get a whinny when I turned up, she walked in from the field like an old lady and her bum muscles were solid. So whether pain caused the behaviour or the meltdown led to muscle cramps - I don't know. I wish they'd invent a plug in muscle enzyme monitor so I could continuously see what was going on inside.

My yard has winter turnout which is like hens teeth around here. Our awful school is also indoor with lights - & seems like a luxury in the middle of winter. I need that lottery win!
 
FfionWinnie said:
I've had D on oil for a couple of weeks and she is jumping out her skin. Literally can't hold her just hacking out. I've only ever needed to bit up for anything she considered hunting, not just hacking out at home! So possibly could be that. I can't decide whether I like it or not with her :D
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I've always said oil is S's oats! How much are you feeding? Did you stop Alcar?

I'm about to raid all 3 of the farmers hay barns to get a mixed hay sample so Forage Plus can tell me whether it's full of sugar or not.
 
No I didn't stop the alcar simply because I changed so much at once I wanted to wait and see.

She feels different but is that down to the saddle or the oil I'm not sure. One thing tho she has always been chompy on the bit and reluctant to really work properly in an outline. I have always suspected the chomping was anxiety / discomfort as some times it is worse than others. She's stopped chomping and she was offering to work in an outline like she never ever has before. I've had her two years so I feel quite confident the oil has stopped the chomping and turned her into a potential dressage diva. What I don't get is that she feels tight going down hill where as she felt better I think before.

The canter however feels really powerful again and she's really on her toes.

I'm feeding a generous glug of oil along with her copra and alfalfa pellets. Scientific I know but I just started with a tiny glug and worked my way up to where we are now.

She's also finished changing her coat so that could also be a factor.

God it's a nightmare working it all out isn't it.

Who knows for sure. Not me but she IS better and I'm going to run with it while we've got it.
 
Can you remind me if you've ruled out kissing spines with x rays? Friend of a friend has recently turned down two four year olds due to kissing spines on pre purchase x rays.

I sympathise on the not bouncing as we get older!
 
SEL said:
Vets & physio all say the muscle weakness is no worse than what they see in a lot of 1 sided horses. I don't think the PSSM is under control, although Liverpool have helped me with the diet and have also come back to me with some drug options so it's easier to draw the line between behaviour and pain. I think that's the next step really, although I had a bit of an ask around today re:trainers.

Plus tonight I didn't get a whinny when I turned up, she walked in from the field like an old lady and her bum muscles were solid. So whether pain caused the behaviour or the meltdown led to muscle cramps - I don't know. I wish they'd invent a plug in muscle enzyme monitor so I could continuously see what was going on inside.
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until you can say the PSSM is under control I would be giving her the benefit of the doubt. Before it was under control on mine he behaved badly.

If she walked in like an old lady and her bum muscles were solid I don't think you can expect anything from her ridden as she will simply be in pain and trying to protect herself. What rugs are you using on her and what exercise sheet? I had one tricky day last week when he was in a Rambo 250g. Upped it to Rambo 400g at night and the difference is very noticeable. From what you describe I wouldn't be riding but would long rein until she worked herself loose. It is pointless having any sort of battle with a horse in pain. It is never going to learn and it simply puts you at risk.
 
Sadly I have to agree. You have to wait until she's in a better place with the PSSM. My PSSM gelding has had a very bad month or two as well, just recovering now that his coat is through which may be a coincidence or it might have been affecting him, who knows?
 
paddy555 said:
until you can say the PSSM is under control I would be giving her the benefit of the doubt. Before it was under control on mine he behaved badly.

If she walked in like an old lady and her bum muscles were solid I don't think you can expect anything from her ridden as she will simply be in pain and trying to protect herself. What rugs are you using on her and what exercise sheet? I had one tricky day last week when he was in a Rambo 250g. Upped it to Rambo 400g at night and the difference is very noticeable. From what you describe I wouldn't be riding but would long rein until she worked herself loose. It is pointless having any sort of battle with a horse in pain. It is never going to learn and it simply puts you at risk.
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Benefit of doubt given. She's been in 300g so I'll try another layer & see if it makes her more comfortable. Fleece exercise sheet which she's been getting a bit warm under (not clipped). Again, I can up that to see how we do. Something isn't working, but if you'd asked me 24 hours ago I'd have said we were doing well. Boo.

Ycbm - never checked for kissing spine. It's never been highlighted as a potential by the vet or physio. I'll add to the list for the next vet call out.
 
I think it just a case or perseverance really.
Just keep dong everything and correct her in an obvious way.

The horse nanny will definitely help, but when not available some on foot can also make a difference or long line her?

Also a break.
A short one can make a difference, being backed and ridden away can he hard work and a lot to take on.
a chance to digest it all may help.

Good luck.
 
I do agree that unless the PSSM is under control it's your most likely culprit, by the way. But if you can afford a couple of hundred for some back x rays, I would just clear that one out of the list of possible causes, since it's turning out to be so common.
 
Thanks all. Bottom muscles like iron this morning (I've been poking other people's horses bottoms to get comparisons) & a very grumpy mare with her pain face on. So we loose schooled at a walk - & there was a definite gait stiffness.

I'm going to get the vet next week because Liverpool have trialled muscle relaxants with a horse that didn't respond to the PSSM diet and I think it's worth a shot. If I can remove the muscle pain issue and she's still throwing some acrobatics then I will pop her off to boot camp for a few weeks. I'm going to ask about kissing spine too.

Poor girlie.
 
SEL said:
Thanks all. Bottom muscles like iron this morning (I've been poking other people's horses bottoms to get comparisons) & a very grumpy mare with her pain face on. So we loose schooled at a walk - & there was a definite gait stiffness.

I'm going to get the vet next week because Liverpool have trialled muscle relaxants with a horse that didn't respond to the PSSM diet and I think it's worth a shot. If I can remove the muscle pain issue and she's still throwing some acrobatics then I will pop her off to boot camp for a few weeks. I'm going to ask about kissing spine too.

Poor girlie.
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poor horse, sorry to hear this. Would be very interested if you find out any more about muscle relaxants.
 
I was exactly there last year spring time. Youngster was backed the previous October and hacked out through the winter. Spring time he started to buck rather than just freeze when new things popped up out hacking or he had a tantrum. You might not want to hear this but I gave him the summer off.
It helped wonders. Brought him back and he has come on since then immensely. He just needed to mature. (And he was already 5 lol)
 
when you've had vet results think about riding and leading from the older one to get her used to sights if you can't long rein her. The older one will give her confidence and she can strengthen up without a rider. Always use a bridle with a long lead rein, never use just a headcollar or a bridle with riding reins as they're too short if it pulls back or spooks and a headcollar doesn't give enough contol.
 
flirtygerty said:
out of touch here, what is PSSM ?
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polysaccharide storage myopathy, also known as EPSM which is just popping 'Equine' in the front.

Its a glycogen storage disease that can cause tying up in horses. Its probably the same thing as Monday Morning disease in draft horses, where they were fed grain on a Sunday and then tied up in work on a Monday (although there's some debate over that!). Basically horses with the defective gene process glucose too efficiently from starches and sugars and it ends up being stored in the muscles in an abnormal state. It can cause them to be very stiff, appear nappy and can lead to behaviour problems due to a level of underlying pain if the horse isn't managed properly.

The gene is an old one and found in draft horses and those of draft horse descent. It is likely that it enabled them to work for long periods of time on minimal or low quality food and the general view is our ancestors actively bred horses with that 'thrifty' gene. The trouble now is we've crossed draft breeds with finer breeds, we're feeding more and working less and we're also asking these x-breeds to work at faster paces rather than the 'plod for hours' of the working horse. All of which is causing problems with the horses carrying the defective gene to varying levels.

Its become a bit of a problem in the US where it is appearing the their quarterhorse population and is now something that has to be tested for prior to registration (I think the UK appaloosa societies have compulsory testing too). Its a dominant gene so my mare has a 50% chance of passing it on to any foal - given my experience with the disease I absolutely wouldn't risk breeding a foal with it!
 
Maesfen said:
when you've had vet results think about riding and leading from the older one to get her used to sights if you can't long rein her. The older one will give her confidence and she can strengthen up without a rider. Always use a bridle with a long lead rein, never use just a headcollar or a bridle with riding reins as they're too short if it pulls back or spooks and a headcollar doesn't give enough contol.
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Funnily enough I was talking to the owner of the old polo horse yesterday to see if I could borrow him. My mare is a bit of a diva even when well, but the old boy is the granddad of the herd and she does take her lead from him quite well. Providing the hunt isn't around he is bombproof. She's happy for me to borrow her horse a couple of times a week, especially as we're only going to be walking and see how it goes.

Turning her away for the winter is an option but I'm not sure that will help her PSSM sadly.
 
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