Young horse bucking - tack issue or balance?

[Mimi2005]

I have recently backed my rising 4 year old TB mare with the intention of letting her see traffic, cyclists etc so hacking once per week and one short session in the school of no more than 20 minutes per week to help her balance and steering and then leaving her be until the spring. With this in mind, I had a saddle fitter out who sold me a brand new Wintec to 'make do' with until my mare fills out more and muscles up. First time in the school with new saddle and the horse is fine in walk and trot and the first canter attempt but then bucks when asked to pick up canter each time thereafter. Prior to this, she had been in the school a handful of times (maybe 3-4) with an old saddle I'd borrowed just for the purpose of backing and cantered no issue. During the backing process she only ever bucked the very first time she had a saddle on and has never bucked with a rider on previously.

Does this sound like it's a youngster with balance issues or the saddle? The fitter has said that they would expect a reaction in walk and trot if it were the saddle but to me this is new behaviour and the only change we've made is the saddle.

 

[J&S]

I would keep your cantering to outside of the school, hacking that is, and choose a gentle uphill track. A school is too tight for a young horse to canter in, you may be asking just a bit too much. The new saddle may fit correctly but it will also certainly feel different to your horse. Take a few steps back.

 

[Mimi2005]

I would keep your cantering to outside of the school, hacking that is, and choose a gentle uphill track. A school is too tight for a young horse to canter in, you may be asking just a bit too much. The new saddle may fit correctly but it will also certainly feel different to your horse. Take a few steps back.

Thank you, the school is 65 x 25m so there is plenty of straight length to get a canter and she has cantered nicely down the full length until now.

 

[Bonnie Allie]

The only thing you have changed is the saddle. I’m perplexed when advice is given to buy something that will “make do” whilst the horse fills out.

Buy the best possible saddle you can afford to give the horse the best possible start. Training to iron issues costs significantly more than a saddle. Your safety should be paramount as well.

Reconsider your saddle decision.

 

[Mimi2005]

The only thing you have changed is the saddle. I’m perplexed when advice is given to buy something that will “make do” whilst the horse fills out.

Buy the best possible saddle you can afford to give the horse the best possible start. Training to iron issues costs significantly more than a saddle. Your safety should be paramount as well.

Reconsider your saddle decision.

Thank you, I am. The fitter is making me doubt that it is the saddle though as they mention she is fine in walk and trot.

 

[Birker2020]

Thank you, I am. The fitter is making me doubt that it is the saddle though as they mention she is fine in walk and trot.

Different muscle group in canter though. It might also be worth seeing if the horse is sore through its sacrum.

 

[Red-1]

Can you borrow the saddle you used before, that she was OK with, and ride in that again to see if she is OK again? That would kind of prove the point. Then reject the Wintec as unsuitable for purpose if she is fine in the other! I would give it a while though, to make sure she isn't now sore in muscles and allow recovery.

Apart from the saddle, the weather has also changed. I know a few horses who would do once a week OK in summer, when it is balmy, but in winter would require more regular work to keep their steady head on.

 

[Barton Bounty]

In my experience of owning thoroughbreds over the years, wintec is the worst saddle ever for their shape. Unfortunately tbs wont allow you to make do, they are very sensitive and will bronk and buck if they are not comfortable. What saddle were you using, is sounds as if the wintec shape is just very wrong for you horsey ?

 

[Mimi2005]

Different muscle group in canter though. It might also be worth seeing if the horse is sore through its sacrum.

She had physio 3 weeks previously and not sore at all. She's had her bridle custom made and a bit fit specialist to check that is OK too. The only thing I can't yet have custom for her is the saddle due to how quickly she will change.

 

[Mimi2005]

In my experience of owning thoroughbreds over the years, wintec is the worst saddle ever for their shape. Unfortunately tbs wont allow you to make do, they are very sensitive and will bronk and buck if they are not comfortable. What saddle were you using, is sounds as if the wintec shape is just very wrong for you horsey ?

Is it really? I've never come across wintecs before, just trusting the saddle fitter to advise the best possible fit for her at this stage. She's said to post the saddle back but isn't interested in helping fit an alternative brand and I now understand her to be a rep for them.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I agree with you that she will change often but wintec really is usually not the right shape. I have been through this when a saddle fitter fitted a bates saddle at my cost of £1300 and hurt my horse. He has an ideal deal now for winter and a thorowgood t4 for summer. ?

 

[Barton Bounty]

Is it really? I've never come across wintecs before, just trusting the saddle fitter to advise the best possible fit for her at this stage. She's said to post the saddle back but isn't interested in helping fit an alternative brand and I now understand her to be a rep for them.

That is poor service! It will cost you £16/20 to send back but if your getting the full cost back its a small price to pay.

 

[Mimi2005]

Can you borrow the saddle you used before, that she was OK with, and ride in that again to see if she is OK again? That would kind of prove the point. Then reject the Wintec as unsuitable for purpose if she is fine in the other! I would give it a while though, to make sure she isn't now sore in muscles and allow recovery.

Apart from the saddle, the weather has also changed. I know a few horses who would do once a week OK in summer, when it is balmy, but in winter would require more regular work to keep their steady head on.

Thanks, yes that was my thinking too - to try her in the old saddle which I still have and see if we get the same reaction.

It's hard to say with her as she is just backed (in last 2 months) so she's never done more than once per week but she isn't fizzy and, with only just starting a bit under saddle, is not fit.

 

[Mimi2005]

That is poor service! It will cost you £16/20 to send back but if your getting the full cost back its a small price to pay.

I agree with you that she will change often but wintec really is usually not the right shape. I have been through this when a saddle fitter fitted a bates saddle at my cost of £1300 and hurt my horse. He has an ideal deal now for winter and a thorowgood t4 for summer. ?

It's awful isn't it, I am so dismayed with saddle fitters - every one of them have let me and my horses down. My other mare has a custom made Farrington but before we got that, she'd had numerous saddles and shapes on her and one caused permanent white hair where the panels had been rocking. Unbelievable.

I've seen quite a few recommendations for thorowgoods for TBs.

 

[Barton Bounty]

It's awful isn't it, I am so dismayed with saddle fitters - every one of them have let me and my horses down. My other mare has a custom made Farrington but before we got that, she'd had numerous saddles and shapes on her and one caused permanent white hair where the panels had been rocking. Unbelievable.

I've seen quite a few recommendations for thorowgoods for TBs.

Yeah they are pretty inexpensive if you do have to change it, they are adjustable, and you will more often than not always get your money back for them ?
This ‘saddle fitter’ was a member of the master of saddle fitters and runs a massive business! Two saddles she fitted wrongly to my horse. Sacked her off after that! ?

 

[Red-1]

If the fitter has offered the money back without quibble if you post, then I would do that.

If you are only intending to do a little more then turn away, I would continue in the saddle she has been happy with up to now and then buy one in spring when you start work again. I would go for a secondhand but good one, then you won't lose much money when she changes.

I have gone for a Stride Free with mine. Spendy but more adjustable than a Wintec, I think. I am hopeful that this one will do him. But then he older than yours and has been through 3 already!

 

[Mimi2005]

If the fitter has offered the money back without quibble if you post, then I would do that.

If you are only intending to do a little more then turn away, I would continue in the saddle she has been happy with up to now and then buy one in spring when you start work again. I would go for a secondhand but good one, then you won't lose much money when she changes.

I have gone for a Stride Free with mine. Spendy but more adjustable than a Wintec, I think. I am hopeful that this one will do him. But then he older than yours and has been through 3 already!

Thank you, that's a good idea re getting something second hand but it's knowing what to look for that I find tricky. Fitters all seem to specialise in certain brands nowadays whereas back in the day they used to source you what you needed and bring a variety to try.

 

[Red-1]

Thank you, that's a good idea re getting something second hand but it's knowing what to look for that I find tricky. Fitters all seem to specialise in certain brands nowadays whereas back in the day they used to source you what you needed and bring a variety to try.

I looked on FB Marketplace. I would ask to be able to put the saddle on the horse to try. Some people were prepared to come here, some I would go there. Some would allow a borrow with payment, to be returned if it didn't fit. Other saddlers allow trials. Patrick Wilkinson or Sheepham Saddles. They are good for selling too, I will shortly be selling a dressage saddle and will most likely sell through one or the other. The downside through those is having to post, whereas Marketplace is likely to have one locally.

 

[Mimi2005]

I looked on FB Marketplace. I would ask to be able to put the saddle on the horse to try. Some people were prepared to come here, some I would go there. Some would allow a borrow with payment, to be returned if it didn't fit. Other saddlers allow trials. Patrick Wilkinson or Sheepham Saddles. They are good for selling too, I will shortly be selling a dressage saddle and will most likely sell through one or the other. The downside through those is having to post, whereas Marketplace is likely to have one locally.

That's great they let you try before buying! I might see what my local saddlery have as I am sure they would allow me to try.

 

[MissTyc]

My 4yo was a bit broncy under saddle and we tried with pre-existing saddles to find one that fit for a few months before turning him away. Saddle fitter confirmed one of them to a very good fit and did a few adjustments. Broncing got worse. These things don't happen for no reason. Got saddle fitter back out, asked what he would recommend if money wasn't an issue. He recommended a specific model of Kent & Masters which I sourced on Ebay. Saddle back to reflock and fit it. Broncing stopped. I'm now going to send him for some FORWARDS, FORWARDS schooling to a professional breaker my friend just used, as I think he also needs to learn to take his energy onwards not upwards. They do all their schooling on hacks, which will be ideal for me to then pick up my own hacking confidence. With young horses, you want them to love their work and not have any aches and pains. Impossible, in some ways, as growing and changing shape will always hurt a little, but if it can be mitigated with the right equipment, then it's worth the investment.

 

[Mimi2005]

My 4yo was a bit broncy under saddle and we tried with pre-existing saddles to find one that fit for a few months before turning him away. Saddle fitter confirmed one of them to a very good fit and did a few adjustments. Broncing got worse. These things don't happen for no reason. Got saddle fitter back out, asked what he would recommend if money wasn't an issue. He recommended a specific model of Kent & Masters which I sourced on Ebay. Saddle back to reflock and fit it. Broncing stopped. I'm now going to send him for some FORWARDS, FORWARDS schooling to a professional breaker my friend just used, as I think he also needs to learn to take his energy onwards not upwards. They do all their schooling on hacks, which will be ideal for me to then pick up my own hacking confidence. With young horses, you want them to love their work and not have any aches and pains. Impossible, in some ways, as growing and changing shape will always hurt a little, but if it can be mitigated with the right equipment, then it's worth the investment.

She's been absolutely no bother at all during backing, taken everything in her stride, never bucked previously when ridden as she's just never seemed bothered about who or what was on her back...until this saddle. I think I'm sadly going to have to try and source another saddle on my own - fitter has suggested a Kent & Masters S series but says she isn't a stockist so can't help me. It is very disheartening.

 

[Palindrome]

Where did you get the advice to ride twice a week?
In my experience, youngsters are best either ridden/worked daily or turned away. If she is only 3, I would turn away and bring back in work in the Spring.
It could also be the saddle, but there is no way to say from the forum.

 

[Peglo]

I’ve heard (from here) some horses don’t like the cair system of wintecs. I’ve got one and like and luckily my horses have (including an ex racer) but obviously not for everyone. Don’t know what like the new wintecs are as mines nearly 15 yr old but just a thought.

also bought mine for just over £300 back in the day and they are at least double that now so you could easily get a decent second hand leather saddle for that now.

 

[Mimi2005]

I’ve heard (from here) some horses don’t like the cair system of wintecs. I’ve got one and like and luckily my horses have (including an ex racer) but obviously not for everyone. Don’t know what like the new wintecs are as mines nearly 15 yr old but just a thought.

also bought mine for just over £300 back in the day and they are at least double that now so you could easily get a decent second hand leather saddle for that now.

That's a good point. Yes this one was £630 new which, as you say, you can likely get a decent leather one second hand for not too much more but sadly my fitter didn't offer me the option - it was this one or nothing and, because I trusted her judgement, I went with this one.

She was fine hacking in it last Sunday so will see what she's like tomorrow on our next hack!

 

[lannerch]

My old horse ( a strapping then 17.2 ) when I broke him in at 3 used to buck on the canter transitions as he found it difficult , in time he strengthened and after a break he found it easier and never bucked on the transition. If your horse is not sore and if it’s only on the transition I would be surprised if it was due to your saddle .

 

[TPO]

Wintec were designed in Australia specifically for TBs so don't believe everything you read on the Internet ?

You might have already mentioned this and I've missed it but is the Wintec flocked or cair? If that latter that might be the issue as not all horses like them.

As Red said I'd post the saddle back for a full refund. It's not expensive to post a synthetic insured and tracked and the hit for that is less than trying to sell it second hand.

If you can borrow the old saddle as suggested that might help pin point. Why did you get a new saddle; did the original saddle not fit? Sometimes the horse just doesn't agree with what we think should/shouldn't work

 

[Mimi2005]

My old horse ( a strapping then 17.2 ) when I broke him in at 3 used to buck on the canter transitions as he found it difficult , in time he strengthened and after a break he found it easier and never bucked on the transition. If your horse is not sore and if it’s only on the transition I would be surprised if it was due to your saddle .

That's a lot of baby horse! What size did he grow to? She's bucking during the canter, sometimes just kicking out with one leg as if something is bothering her. She had physio 3 weeks ago with no reported soreness and she's been fine in her ridden work between then and the new saddle. I'll hack her tomorrow then try in the school one evening and see if it happens again.

 

[Mimi2005]

Wintec were designed in Australia specifically for TBs so don't believe everything you read on the Internet ?

You might have already mentioned this and I've missed it but is the Wintec flocked or cair? If that latter that might be the issue as not all horses like them.

As Red said I'd post the saddle back for a full refund. It's not expensive to post a synthetic insured and tracked and the hit for that is less than trying to sell it second hand.

If you can borrow the old saddle as suggested that might help pin point. Why did you get a new saddle; did the original saddle not fit? Sometimes the horse just doesn't agree with what we think should/shouldn't work

Thank you, somebody else did mention that it could be CAIR (or HART as it is now known) that's the issue and the saddle fitter herself did mention it could be that my mare prefers wool.

The old saddle is just borrowed from someone else on the same yard (I still have it) but it is ancient old, not enough spine clearance, not designed for a high wither and, without a thick wool numnah and riser, it would sit on her spine so it really was just to get her used to the feel and weight of a saddle. Having said that, the fact that she has never reacted in the heavy, ill fitting, ratty old saddle makes me think it is more likely the air/foam she's opposed to.

 

[TPO]

Thank you, somebody else did mention that it could be CAIR (or HART as it is now known) that's the issue and the saddle fitter herself did mention it could be that my mare prefers wool.

The old saddle is just borrowed from someone else on the same yard (I still have it) but it is ancient old, not enough spine clearance, not designed for a high wither and, without a thick wool numnah and riser, it would sit on her spine so it really was just to get her used to the feel and weight of a saddle. Having said that, the fact that she has never reacted in the heavy, ill fitting, ratty old saddle makes me think it is more likely the air/foam she's opposed to.

Yeah some just don't get on with it. Another consideration is temperature. Really cold temps make air panels more rigid and it used to be advised to keep cair panelled saddles indoors to avoid this. Something that wasn't a necessary consideration in Australia!

Probably worth finding a fitter that has a good range of second hand leather saddles and trying a selection. Easier said than done I know! If you started a new thread looking for fitters in your area you should get some recommendations on here.

 

[Mimi2005]

Yeah some just don't get on with it. Another consideration is temperature. Really cold temps make air panels more rigid and it used to be advised to keep cair panelled saddles indoors to avoid this. Something that wasn't a necessary consideration in Australia!

Probably worth finding a fitter that has a good range of second hand leather saddles and trying a selection. Easier said than done I know! If you started a new thread looking for fitters in your area you should get some recommendations on here.

Yes that's the difficulty, finding someone I've not already discounted and finding one truly independent. As suggested, I think I will start a thread asking for recommendations.

Ah interesting about the temperature affecting the cair, I'll keep that in mind thank you.