Young horse humping her back

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travellingpony

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My 4 year old youngster backed now about a year has a habit of really putting her back up we go through phases that are worse than others. It's when you first get on and ask for upward transitions. She doesn't do it hacking out but it can be quite explosive under saddle. She hates having the girth done up too but again sometimes this won't be a problem.

The horse has been vetted, seen a physio and had a new saddle fitted. No one can find anything wrong.

There was a huge problem mounting but with clicker training and some tip on here is now perfect.

I have the vet coming out for mites tomorrow for jabs and I have asked them to look because I'm just not happy. I don't feel she is really sharp like this. She is very stressy and when she's wound up
the back up is much more. She does buck but not to get you off and when she's going forward stops.

Am I reading too much into it? The horse is definitely not lame has lovely fluid paces but I feel like these is something wrong.. Any thoughts?
 
Go with your gut feeling, I too would be worried if a correctly started youngster was behaving this way for that long.

How long have you had her? I see she has been vetted, was she backed when you bought her?

Can you give us more detail?
 
About 5 months was vetted and physio on purchase. She was professionally backed and has always done this to some extent. I have changed girths which doesn't help.

I have tried knocking haylage on the head to see if she's fresh she gets plenty of turn out today she was actually bunched up in her body as soon as I put the saddle on I lunged as she had the weekend off and enormous explosion.

She is better ridden every day. She is ridden at least five and a mix of things where possible. She is very forward too and so fluid that's why it's odd. Otherwise I would be thinking could it be KS. I can't find a sore patch neither can anyone else and she stands like a dream to get on which was a huge issue so it's odd..

She is quite bum high currently the saddle is synthetic but I have ridden her in leather too and it was the same story. It was only new and fitted about 8 weeks ago. It looks fine to me but I'm obviously not qualified.

I wonder could it be ulcers? I give her adlib hay...
 
Could be ulcers. Might also be your saddlepad? Some are very sensitive to some that sit more on the spine or withers. Also what flocking do you have in the saddle? Could potentially be a rib problem as well as they often go unnoticed. My baby mare goes humpy when her loins and hip get tight (grown bum high again and clever so works to avoid ouch which makes the tightness worse) and can rear if forwards is hard (in her head at least) so pushing through to get the muscles working can really help. Cavaletti also really good as those muscles get engaged and stretched.

Have you long reined? Without a saddle - roller instead and see if she does the same?
 
Has her back been x rayed? The guy who operated on mine for kissing spines said he does a few three or four year old horses that people have difficulty backing, who have been born with it.
 
My youngster did exactly this and he had ulcers. Once treated he has gone back to his normal, happy and calm self.
 
We haven't done anything yet other than physio and changes to diet because everyone keeps saying it's me. Going to see what they say today. The saddle is cair she was in a traditional when I tried her with wool and still did it a bit. It's a humane girth and a cotton thin pad.

She's such a sweet girl I just hope it's something they can sort out some of it is very green I don't doubt that but I don't think she's this sharp on her own. Just hope the vet can be sensibile about how to diagnose it I really don't want her out through a tonne of things if it can be helped.

We will have to see what today brings. Physio is convinced it's not kissing spines she thinks it must be saddle but I can't see that I've had her in three and it's the same story. She blew out tonnes yesterday when I did the girth up in to the most bizarre shape she's never done that before at all..
 
I too think she is trying to tell you something, I don't know what, is she still bum high, could it just be that she needs a summer at grass with only long reining or driving for three or four months.
I would assume she has been out all winter and has had plenty of hay?
 
If it's a humane girth with the loop the strap runs through they are known for pressure points. May be an idea to swap to a different one, you can even still get string girths which are very good for pressure distribution.

Also may be worth warming the back muscles up before tacking up or getting on - there are a few specific products out there but a few warm water bottles will do the same thing. May just be as simple as tension causieg some cold back issues. Tension associated with saddle or riding or whatever.
 
She is very bum high. Was bought as a six year old clearly more 4/5. She was driven before. She has adlib hay and plenty of turn out daily.

I had her in a synthetic girth that was supossed to be a comfort one and she hated it. I will see about a string one too. She is a very stressy horse and can get tucked up in new situations. I'm at a loss with it really. I can't see its hormonal as it's been all winter. She's a horse of a lifetime for me so I want to get it right.

Maybe an equisage type pad would help? I have tried walking in hand before getting on lunging and even leaving the saddle on half an hour it doesn't help. She's was hell bent on me not getting on but now is perfect in any situation with the clicker training would that bypass pain?

Just want an answer so we can move forwards really. She's not worked hard just little and regular. She really loves hacking when she doesn't do any of these behaviours.
 
If she has driving type genes, check out PSSM which could also cause the behaviour you are describing.

A list A physio missed kissing spines in my horse and blamed the saddle. She also missed it over a horse where it was so severe that the horse had to be put down.
 
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My physio missed a few things in my old horse hence getting out the vet I don't want to get this wrong. She's a heavy cob so not driving particularly but her last owner did a bit with her apparently. She's excellent with traffic and so many things and generally quite laid back which is why for me something doesn't fit. When she came her behaviour was aggressive and she had no manners but that has come on so far it's just this issue that remains.
 
If she's a heavy cob she's a shoe-in for PSSM. It's very high in draft breeds - 60% in Shires and Clydes. Check out some of the other threads that have been running about it recently. A diet change should tell you in a couple of weeks if PSSM is your problem.
 
ycbm said:
If she's a heavy cob she's a shoe-in for PSSM. It's very high in draft breeds - 60% in Shires and Clydes. Check out some of the other threads that have been running about it recently. A diet change should tell you in a couple of weeks if PSSM is your problem.
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So interesting after Christmas break she was bonkers having not been ridden and it is better sometimes than others. I will definitely mention this she looks visibly tucked up sometimes when ridden but then she's screaming for other horses too. Muscle isn't great but again she's a baby and only recently been in more constant work- thank you
 
travellingpony said:
So interesting after Christmas break she was bonkers having not been ridden and it is better sometimes than others. I will definitely mention this she looks visibly tucked up sometimes when ridden but then she's screaming for other horses too. Muscle isn't great but again she's a baby and only recently been in more constant work- thank you
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PSSM could easily be your problem. Lack of work causes one of mine to stiffen up badly. They both seem very sensitive to weather changes, too. Can I suggest you try her on 10,000iu a day of natural vitamin E (20,000 if synthetic) and 10g of alcar. Both are available on eBay. Whereabouts are you? I have a stockpile of alcar and vitamin E and i could let you have two weeks supply for cost, because both are expensive to buy if they don't work.

You also need to cut all sugar that you can out of her diet.
 
ycbm said:
PSSM could easily be your problem. Lack of work causes one of mine to stiffen up badly. They both seem very sensitive to weather changes, too. Can I suggest you try her on 10,000iu a day of natural vitamin E (20,000 if synthetic) and 10g of alcar. Both are available on eBay. Whereabouts are you? I have a stockpile of alcar and vitamin E and i could let you have two weeks supply for cost, because both are expensive to buy if they don't work.

You also need to cut all sugar that you can out of her diet.
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Shes only alfa lite, calm and condition and hay that's it. Yesterday I cut out the haylage. It has been rich this last bale which would again make sense. She gets very anxious and looks tied up sometimes in the school but hates being alone. She hates the girth done up and looks so tense when the saddle is on- particularly yesterday.. We have very little grass at the moment but plenty of turn out. Shes bedded on straw. We are in the Scottish Boarders.
 
I would change the alfalfa, it can drive some horses bonkers. Not likely to be your problem, I think, but worth a try. Vitamin E and alcar are available on eBay.
 
Most vets know very little about EPSM/PSSM. Try asking them if they know sixty per cent of Clydesdale horses and 95% of Belgian drafts have it.
 
ycbm said:
Most vets know very little about EPSM/PSSM. Try asking them if they know sixty per cent of Clydesdale horses and 95% of Belgian drafts have it.
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I have been reading up on this, because of Kevin, The data I have been reading suggests that PSSM is higher in European breed heavy horses and lower in Uk bred horses such as Shires and clydes. Can i ask where you are getting you data from? Thank you.
 
ycbm said:
Most vets know very little about EPSM/PSSM. Try asking them if they know sixty per cent of Clydesdale horses and 95% of Belgian drafts have it.
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Actually, there is almost zero incidence of PSSM1 in Shires and Clydesdales. There is a huge incidence in Continental heavies, but not in British.

However, having said that... there are some studies being run into the incidence of PSSM2 in Shires and Clydes, but this is a muscle wastage disease, rather than a glucose storage and metabolism disease.
 
travellingpony said:
Shes only alfa lite, calm and condition and hay that's it. .
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I really hope you get some answers and get to the bottom of it and get it sorted.

However, just as another idea, c & c does everything but for 2 horses I have had! They both turned into complete idiots on it. Sold one years ago, and last winter new owner put horse back on it - bucked her off inside a week. 4 days after c&c removed and back to normal again.

I'd be inclined to strip the food back to the very basics (does he even need it?), perhaps with a supplement to make sure all the vits and minerals are being provided, in addition to all the other things that you are doing.

Best of luck.
 
I will bin the feed and see if it makes any difference.

Sadly the weather is wild up here so not going to get any sense for the vet she's wild in the box let alone out how annoying. Maybe he will feel something sore somewhere ..
 
The vet can't find anything wrong at all. No pain reflexes, sensitivity nothing. He's convinced it can't be KS. He thinks it's just young horse being naughty. This is now the third professional to say this. He couldn't even find something vaguely sensitive.

I'm going to cut the diet back to nothing and drop the calm and condition. She's on hay only now no haylage and il start a gut supplement too and see if that helps.

She's loved all the fuss and kept licking his head which was helpful.. she has got mites as I though so more treatment for that.

Any thoughts anyone!
 
when my lad was backed, he always put his back up. He had a spectacular bronc too. he had full lameness check, plus xrays ( including back) nothing was found.
What I did find out though, was that other geldings by the same stallion where VERY similar. In fact my physio used to look after the stallion, and couldn't believe how similar my lad was. He was convinced he would grow out of it.
One thing that helped was the right saddle. My lad lets you know if he likes it or not, even if the saddle fitter reckons it fits, sometimes they just don't like particular ones. Also, when jumping my lad has a similar style to his sire, and really flexes his back end, which when he was younger would cause him to pull a muscle. hence regular visits from physio.
Hes 8 this year, and no longer does it, he hasn't done it since the end of his 6th year, it just took a while for his back to strengthen to cope with ridden work / jumping etc

Hope that helps x
 
travellingpony said:
We haven't done anything yet other than physio and changes to diet because everyone keeps saying it's me. Going to see what they say today. The saddle is cair she was in a traditional when I tried her with wool and still did it a bit. It's a humane girth and a cotton thin pad.

She's such a sweet girl I just hope it's something they can sort out some of it is very green I don't doubt that but I don't think she's this sharp on her own. Just hope the vet can be sensibile about how to diagnose it I really don't want her out through a tonne of things if it can be helped.

We will have to see what today brings. Physio is convinced it's not kissing spines she thinks it must be saddle but I can't see that I've had her in three and it's the same story. She blew out tonnes yesterday when I did the girth up in to the most bizarre shape she's never done that before at all..
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My horse hated cair- I had his Bates reflocked and he was instantly better. I dont like humane girths so I would change that.
 
Asha said:
when my lad was backed, he always put his back up. He had a spectacular bronc too. he had full lameness check, plus xrays ( including back) nothing was found.
What I did find out though, was that other geldings by the same stallion where VERY similar. In fact my physio used to look after the stallion, and couldn't believe how similar my lad was. He was convinced he would grow out of it.
One thing that helped was the right saddle. My lad lets you know if he likes it or not, even if the saddle fitter reckons it fits, sometimes they just don't like particular ones. Also, when jumping my lad has a similar style to his sire, and really flexes his back end, which when he was younger would cause him to pull a muscle. hence regular visits from physio.
Hes 8 this year, and no longer does it, he hasn't done it since the end of his 6th year, it just took a while for his back to strengthen to cope with ridden work / jumping etc

Hope that helps x
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I think this could be it with the saddle I hate it anyway so i've asked for some recommendations for fitters I will get someone out and see if we can get something else sorted out. Will cut the diet too as above and order a new girth and a lambs wool pad and see if it all helps.

So annoying shes the sweetest thing and yes very clever but I don't feel like she would be naughty its weird she does look after me in an odd way its never to get you off- it could well do but we all know there is a difference..
 
If the issue persists then I would suggest an appointment at a specialist equine hospital such as Rossdales in Newmarket to determine if it may be discomfort or pain related.
 
OWLIE185 said:
If the issue persists then I would suggest an appointment at a specialist equine hospital such as Rossdales in Newmarket to determine if it may be discomfort or pain related.
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I will do. I have just ordered a merino wool pad and new girth and sleeve too I will try everything I can think of and if still nothing push harder.
 
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