youngster is terrified of being turned out, help!!!

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moodiemare

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:confused: Im at my wits end, I have a 3.5yr old homebred WB gelding who seems to be terrified of everything and hates being turned out, he tries all he can not to go out including hiding at the back of his stable and running away from me!! Once caught he pulls away from me and gallops into the field and runs round like a madman, also gallops in and out of his stable managed to get him out yesterday and he fell over into the electric fence, pulled it all down and skidded into his water but tipping the water all over himself which terrified him even more!!
Was a difficult colt, gelded at 18months unfortunately following closed castration (as vet deemed him to problematic to do standing) developed upward fixation of patella in both legs which means he is better out moving around, have tried everything I can to help him but he doesnt respond to anything. He is ok if I leave door open and he just wanders round the yard perfectly happily but runs away when I open the gate to the field. He has become impossible to lead (just gallops away and pulls rope out of my hands and he has caused me and hubby numerous injuries, I have had horses for over 40 years many youngsters and have bred 7 foals, all of whom have been super to do in all ways but I just cant seem to help this little fella no matter what I do. he is just to dangerous to sell on and im now middle aged and really struggling, may be his patella is causing probs, he isnt in pain as I have given a course of painkillers and he is the same. Not sure his patella will come right and he hasnt grown big enought for me to ride which would test his soundness (not that I would feel safe on him) Anyone have any ideas?? Dont want to put him through veterinary treatment as he was totally traumatised when hospitalised for gelding plus he has no insurance and I cant afford £1,0000's of vets fees:eek:
Just to add, he is fine in his stable and although not affectionate is ok to do and perfectly happy. Would welcome any suggestions as I have been trying my best for 2 years but he seems to be getting worse, dont want to give up on him as he is stunning but if he is unhappy might be better to have him PTS. would welcome any thoughts/suggestions
 
i would remodel the yard if he can end up caught in electric fencecoming out of stable, do you have otherhorses at same place? is he turned out alone or in company?
 
Difficult one and other than has he got company in the fields, he's not expected to be out by himself is he; I wouldn't normally say this about something his age but is it worth getting him broken to see if that helps his mind? It doesn't have to be intensive, just the basics of lunging, backing and then hacking out (I certainly wouldn't be schooling anything that young in an arena, their joints and body just aren't ready for it) to see if the discipline of it will improve his mind at all.

Of course, it could just be that he's like the warmbloods I've known which is why I don't particularly like them (although I admire them but certainly don't ever want one!); he's just plain thick as a plank and has no respect for anyone else including himself.

I'd also be walking him in a bridle or controller headcollar with lunge line every time, I would not be allowing him to get the better of pissing off, he'd be up very short with a flea in his ear the minute he tried anything; there is absolutely no excuse for bad manners from something his age and size.
 
Yep, need more info. Does he have company? Do you have a calm older horse for him? How long has this been going on? Sounds like he had a serious fright at some stage and getting stuck in the fence didn't help. Any possibility of changing where he goes out even to a small paddock?

My 6yo mare couldn't be in a big field with a rug. As a weanling she got spooked in a field by a falling limb. She ran through 3 fences and got on to a main road we caught her 2 miles away. From them on she made it quite clear, no rug in field or she went in panic mode. Stable or small turnout fine. When breaking her we even long lined her with the rug on all over the fields. No difference. She happily wears a rug in the field now. Know why? It was as simple as removing the fillet strap. Never had leg ones. I just tuck her tail into the tail flap strap. I don't even know why I thought to take it off but it was shocking how something so minor made all the difference. She carried whatever memory was in her head for 4 years.

Terri
 
thanks for all your suggestions/thoughts. To answer some of your queries, there is no electric fencing around the yard, I can manage to get him out of yard and into fields (with difficulty using lunging cavesson and lunge line) main prob is going through gates no matter what size they are!! I have post and rail fencing and electric, he is the same with both but additionally eats the post and rail (stress??)
Easy to say about not letting him take the pee and get away with it (I dont) however he is extremely strong and when he decides to gallop off there is no stopping a him running away from you no matter how long your rope, he has dislocated my fingers, pulled off finger nails and rammed me up against gate posts!!! My husband cannot always hold him and he is much stronger than me. Cant hold him short and tight as he will rear and spin and kick out at me so I need a bit of distance but not so much that he is given too much freedom.
Yes he has company (my 12yr old IDx), doesnt make any difference. If i do get him into the field in relative safety he wont stand for me to unclip rope/lunge rein but rears, spins and tries to gallop off.
As regards working, he is lunging absolutely fine, well behaved and very willing and attentive. He has been well handled since birth but always difficult to lead, although gelded is a bit colty (rig maybe??)
Dont think its a rug problem as he does it in the summer too when he has no rug on.
Tried large and small paddocks, the same either way, I take him through my sand lunging ring to his paddock in case I lose him so I can lock him into the ring to catch him, this is about 20x20m. Tried a small area about 2x2m through gate then into a bigger area, still no better. Let him loose out of his stable and and open gate straight into paddock so he can go out in his own time (he doesnt go out!!)
Yes it may be that he is just a naughty warmblood, I certainly wont be having any more that is for sure.
I have found since he has been in most of the time due to the weather he has improved dramatically and is a much nicer horse and perfectly happy stabled (although still a problem when I do try to get him out).
maybe he will just have to live in, not ideal I know but seems to suit him and it much less dangerous, maybe he will grow out of it.
Would still welcome any thoughts suggestions.
 
Ditto 3Bs - how is he once he is out? My gut feeling would be to find a mixed herd to turn him away with and leave him to it to see if his brain settles down.

Is he 4 this time round? The other option would be to lightly back him and get him ridden away to give him something to think about and then throwing him out 24/7 to get on with growing up. You can find youngstock livery with mixed age group herds at various studs around the country and I'm a fimr believer in having them out rather than in, especially at this age.
 
Could he have an eyesight problem? I would certainly get that checked out. He may be able to see the stable walls ok, and of course his sense of smell helps him get around in small spaces, but large spaces without clearly visible fences, hedges etc may terrify him.
 
Is he bitted? would you have better control of leading him if he were?

Get him backed, and riding out in company so he gets out to see the world, and maybe this will be the transition to him enjoying going out.
 
Maybe try what was suggested above and work him? What equipment do you normally have on him when hes lunged? Possibly get him ready to 'lunge' but take him in field and do it so he gets used to being 'worked' in the field.

Eventually, after doing this as long as needs be for him to be comfortable just let him loose in the field. If their mind is on working maybe he will spend less time spooking/looking for something to be scared of.

You could also just take him out box and not ask him to go into the field at all just get some respect back through leading and as a reward you aren't pushing him too much. Get respect on yard/stable first through leading lots of over exaggerated praise when he listens. Then eventually in hand graze until hes sensible and calm, do this as often as you can in a day.

Alternatively, it sounds like hes scared himself on your yard or somethings happened in his mind and moving sounds like a really good solution. Work a try at least, often a change of scenery for a horse can make a world of difference. Good luck!
 
I was wondering about his eyesight too. It certainly seems to be abnormal behaviour. There is "naughty" and there is strange. Since he is OK on the lunge and to handle in the stable it is a puzzle.

You are very experienced, obviously, and used to handling young horses, but I wonder if it would be worth contacting someone like Richard Maxwell/Kelly Marks, who see all sorts of extreme and antisocial behaviour and they might be able to tell whether it is something that can be overcome or not.
 
Does he get a feed? Could you give this in the field so he associates it with something nice?

Is it possible to sedate him a couple of times to make the walk to the field less stressful? He might be ok if he arrives quite calm already?
 
Is it the gateway that he is panicking at? Perhaps he thinks he will get an electric shock or something as he goes through it?
I'm with Maesfen on the view of warmbloods! But perhaps he has got something in his head and can't get over it. Poor boy - and poor you, I certainly couldn't cope with a youngster like that so I feel for you.
 
have tried feeding in the field, leading him out with a bucket of feed and putting feed in the field and letting him eat it before letting him go, and letting him go out loose from stable to field with feed in field, he wont go out and wont stand for me to let him off, just rears and runs round me!!! Tried tidbits, eating carrots on way out and making fuss and carrots before I let him go but he is just so anxioius he wont let me unclip him.
Yes he his fine bitted no probs wearing all tack and boots and rugs and lunge equipment but has galloped off with bit in or wont let me take bit out once he gets in field.
Doesnt really settle in the field once out, just keeps looking at me with his ears pricked forward and waiting to come in?? East to catch and lead in once i go to get him.
Yes have tried lunging him before I turn him out and this worked ok for a bit but then he learns he is going to be put in the field so he starts to misbehave. I can usually change routine once or twice before he realises what I am doing then he gets stupid so I have to change routine again!!! He is just too bloomin clever. He is better if I can get in the field before him and he follows me through!!

Do plan to get him backed once weather improves, have bounced about on his back and lent over him no probs, led him out, not too far as im scared of losing him on the fens but he is ok so far, unfortunately I am on my own with no help. :(:(:(.

Getting his teeth and booster done this month so will ask vet to check his eye sight, just in case.

Turning him out may be an option once weather is better, not worried if he takes another year to mature so long as he gets his head together as yes he is quite dangerous but probably best with me as I know his quirks which is why I wont part with him and dont want him too far away as I want to keep an eye on him and give him the attention he wants.

Sad thing is I just dont want to give up on him, he really is a character and stunning to look at, just totally misunderstood and I am so angry with myself that I cant seem to find a solution, its my fault not his, he really does actually quite like me!!!!

Unfortunately I am now in my mid 50's and really just need a quiet life LOL
We will persevre, there must be a solution :)
 
thanks for link snowdrop, have considered natural horsemanship, unfortunately everyone I have spoken to seem to think it isnt a major problem and they could 'sort him our'. Im not so sure, it isnt a minor indiscretion with him!!!! May well be worth a try tho
 
I still maintain that at some stage he had a fright. It's also very hard to give proper advice over the Internet. Descriptions are great but no substitute for a reputable person working with you. First step is vet to find out about vision issues.

Your horse also anticipates everything. These can be difficult when problems crop and about life in general. Most will never lose that but working with it will make life easier. The mare I described in my first post is the same. She was easier once she started working but much less forgiving of mistakes than normal horses.

I'm not a NH person and hate labelling things, however, if you were have a jumping issue you'd see a SJ trainer. So you really do need a reputable person who deals with these types of situations and horses. Talk to some of the HHO online people. See if there is someone in your area. I think most reputable people would come out to see the situation, not to give free help, but to see what they're dealing with before telling you what they will do or if they can help.

Terri
 
I would definitely get some help with this horse. Richard Maxwell if you possibly can, where about are you?

Meanwhile I would leave him out 24/7.

When did he start behaving like this?
 
I've dealt with this. I know how it feels and how hard it is to handle. It's not taking the piss, the horse is genuinely afraid and they get this blind look in the eye, I always felt as if my horse wasn't really seeing me. There must have been a trigger for this, or did he suddenly change overnight? A period of extended box rest? A problem with the other horse in the field? You should definitely get his eyesight checked, but also think about what might have been the trigger. Having said that, whatever caused the problem, I do believe that now you have to deal with the horse in front of you.
You can pm me if you like for a chat. I'm happy to share what I did about mine. He can be turned out quite happily now, his only catch is that he's not 100% to hack out alone. One thing I will say, in my experience you might need to re-think having him backed so soon. I had to take a big step back and give it the time needed for my horse to become relaxed out of his stable, and OK around other horses before I could think about re-starting him. I'm no spring chicken by the way, if that's any consolation.
 
It sounds like a real fear issue, I agree. Is the company of an older little pony,as a nanny possible? I've found a little hairy, giving off calming "there is grass, therefore we eat" messages at all times (in the way of little hairy ponies) can help to settle youngsters.
I'd investigate the eyesight,too :)
 
I think OP has tried company. He doesn't care. Abba is an absolute pig. She will do anything for food. When she was turned out in a rug, before problem was sorted, the grass could have been a field of sweet mix and she would not have cared.

OP I know you said it wasn't the rug but have you tried him naked. He won't get cold but it would be interesting to see if there is any difference. Maybe you have tried that, I don't know. One bad experience from an anticipator can be quite an issue.

Terri
 
You treat him in exactly the same way you would a human with agoraphobia :)

This uses a process called "counterconditioning" - where you work very gradually, making "outside" a good thing.

At the moment, you're going in huge (for him) steps - either inside, or out in the field.

You need to break it down into much smaller steps - decide where he first starts to appear worried, and don't go any further than that. Feed there, make a fuss, return to safe zone. Do this for a few days until he is visibly relaxed where you choose, and starting to look around. Don't allow him to become fearful at any time during the process. Then move a few feet further - again, if he is fearful at any point you have to go back a step. Continue inching the safe zone outwards. The new safe zone always has to become associated with relaxation and reward (food is the best one).

I'm sure lots of people on the thread will say this is mollycoddling - and I'm sure the humans who have benefited from this approach would disagree :) As TinyPony says (great post, by the way), you need to go right back - don't even think about riding outside until you have a horse who has learned that outside is safe.

Counterconditioning can be time consuming, but if done correctly, it is effective and will resolve the issue. There are a few key no-nos (one is never to trigger flight or fear response during the process), so is best done under the guidance of a qualified behaviourist (and that's not a horse trainer, but someone who actually understands the way the brain processes fear responses: if the person you're talking to doesn't know what counterconditioning is or how it works, they're the wrong person :) Someone registered with Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (http://www.apbc.org.uk/help/regions) is usually appropriately qualified, but those with equine specialisms are rare as hen's teeth - if you say roughly where you are, I can probably recommend someone locally).
 
Jools1234 said:
i would remodel the yard if he can end up caught in electric fencecoming out of stable, do you have otherhorses at same place? is he turned out alone or in company?
Click to expand...

This. Are there any paddocks leading out from the yard? If so, perhaps leave his door open into the yard and electric tape (5ft high, 3 rungs) a small paddock with the gate left open so he can go directly from the stable to yard to paddock whenever he wants. Then its HIS idea to venture into the paddock if he's brave enough. Have you tried turning out alone and then with various other horses? Perhaps a little shetland or old pony would suit being with him, anything calm! If its a shetland and his stable was big enough you could keep them together permanently so he can have a "safety buddy"!

I've got a difficult turn-outer. He would just gallop and gallop when I let him out and then go through fences. I started with a stable-size paddock fenced in a circle with 6ft high steel fencing (the type councils use for round building sites etc. - brilliant stuff!). It works brilliant, as they dont have the space to canter and they simply cannot get out of it. I slowly increased the time he spent out in it, then when he was calm out all day in that I put him into a slowly increasing electric fenced paddock (5ft high). 4/5 months on, he's really relaxed in a pretty big paddock but unfortunately I tried him out with another horse a few days ago which sent him nuts. As a result, he decided to climb through the fence yesterday when I was out, into my other horses paddock (who was 10 months into rehab for a severe tendon injury, he's now on 3 legs again - absolutely gutted!). So I know how annoying it is!
 
What do you feed him on?

I had a nightmare of a horse, couldn't lead her/ride her or do anything when she was ready for her next 'fix' of sugar/cereals. As a start I'd look VERY carefully at his diet, with the understanding that he could be reacting to any one component of it. I'd also treat as an agoraphobic as above.
 
couldnt read and run but wanted to say there are some excellent suggestions on here. work through them and let us know how you get on. I have a 4 year old Warmblood and at 2.5 he was a total idiot on the ground. I had to start groundwork then as it gave him something to do and he actually started looking forward to going in the school. Saying that he was nowhere near as bad as yours. He would go out in company or on his own, didnt trash fences and didnt mind if his mate was taken away from the field or he was but he did know his strength and if he wanted to go off in the opposite direction he knew he could, he would spin, rear, try and run. Put him in a bridle to lead too and he soon calmed down. He seems happier with something in his mouth to play with and it keeps his mind off of playing around. I did pretty much have him out 24/7 up until last spring too. Found that keeping him out of the situation of leading in and out EVERY day and mucking around was the best thing to do and he could sort his own head out. Even at 4 i lead in a bridle as in a headcollar he takes the pee. As i say good luck :)
 
Poor you, he sounds genuinely terrified. I definately would get his eyes checked and also contact someone like Richard Maxwell or Kelly Marks. He sounds as if he has 2 main problems, agoraphobia and also seems scared of going through gateways & doors. Has he been caught up whilst going through one?
Could you get a round pen to put in the field, he may feel more secure in that?
I would also send him away for backing. Where abouts are you? I know of a chap who is fantastic with sensitive horses, very quiet, gives them loads of time and does lots and lots of hacking & roadwork with them.
One of our horses was a nightmare when she was a 4 yr old in that she constantly tried to get back in ( damaging herself quite badly a couple of times). She was only happy with other horses in paddocks around her. Now she happily stays out 24/7.
Good luck keep us posted.
 
so many helpful comments thank you all. some I have already tried and some I have considered trying (i,e little pony as a mate) only prob is that if it doesnt work I have another one to look after lol, maybe I can find one on loan.
Did leave him out with a filly (now sold) in the summer, that worked for a while but he really wasnt happy, started leading ok and I thought I had cracked it but then he started it again.
He is ok going through gates when I work him or lead him out so dont think it is a gateway problem as such. He is just so clever he anticipates what is going to happen which why I can get round it by changing the routine but as I said this only works a few times.
Will get eyes checked but think his sight is ok as we are very open here on fens so he can see miles distant and I can see him watching things.
I have decided to get him sat on and just see how he goes but in no rush to push on if he isnt ready, would have liked to get him out to a few shows for experience but because of his patella problem would likely get chucked out of the class!!
Will keep trying
 
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