Youngster too much for me?
- Thread starter Spanish Dressage
- Start date
paddy555
Well-Known Member
if you ride in a neck ring the problem is still there. Apart from the underlying pain it also affects the vision ie how the horse sees things. Some don't seem to have their vision that badly affected and are probably safe as they can correctly process what they are looking at. Some have problems. Mine had problems with walkers, riders etc moving. Straight into panic mode, freak and run.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
Spanish Dressage
has your horse had any bacterial or viral infection? in the time you have had him or (if you have any info) with his previous owners since he was a baby?
has your horse had any bacterial or viral infection? in the time you have had him or (if you have any info) with his previous owners since he was a baby?
KC31
Well-Known Member
I could have written this. I imported a just backed 3yo, (hindsight is a wonderful thing)! He had been backed so harshly and i have spent 4 years unpicking that. I honestly thought i would never ride him. What i did was go right back to basics. Whenever i put the saddle on him, he put his back up and i was off. He was thoroughly checked over by the vet and had nothing wrong, as the vet said memory pain can sometimes be far worse to deal with than physical pain. So i now always use a massage pad, i then saddle him up and give him 10 minutes with a loose girth, i then put his bridle on and walk him round in hand, when i then get on him he is perfectly behaved. He will always be spicy but each year he has got better and better. He is such a sensitive boy and whatever he went through had such an effect on him. It wouldn't take much for someone to upset him. I never deviate from this and if i am in a rush i won't ride him. We followed the TRT method which helped with our confidence. I took him to a clinic at the weekend and was told this horse i thought i would never ride would go to GP. Like anything with these amazing creatures it is time and patience and if you have to take a few steps back, then so be it. Good luck.
EventingMum
Well-Known Member
I think others have given very good advice. My own experience with uveitis is that it is extremely painful and distressing for the horse. One of ours had posterior uveitis and was in the vet hospital being investigated when I got a phone call to say he was behaving in such a dangerous manner they were struggling to do anything with him. This was the sweetest, most gentle natured horse with good manners that you could ever meet and the pain was just so much it had this effect on him. Once the condition improved at bit he was back to his normal self.
Alibear
Well-Known Member
This or e have your vets blood tested to check as an underlying infection (even lymes) can cause ERU. I've known two horses suffering from it; both had some sort of virus/infection, and the ERU went once that was finally treated; it took the best part of a year in both cases once the issue had been found.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I'm glad others have mentioned the uveitis. If its in both eyes then your vet should be testing for leptospirosis because there is a casual link I was told.
My Appy hasn't been ridden for 3 years. She has a host of issues but eyes are on the list (typical pink skinned, high risk Appy). A few years ago I had a weekend callout when she came in with a puffy eye which didn't go down with bute and the locum vet told me about insidious uveitis. I never followed up, but if she ever ditches her mask and her eyes get watery then she is vile to headcollar and I suspect that is a thumping headache. She was incredibly unpredictable to ride and although I lead her out in hand now for exercise its obvious she still struggles with bright sunlight and very dark patches of shade. She stops dead and stares into the sky and back in her ridden days that was my cue to get off immediately before she exploded - on the ground its more manageable and I can bring her back into the present with a polo or similar.
What's yours like if you lead out in hand?
My Appy hasn't been ridden for 3 years. She has a host of issues but eyes are on the list (typical pink skinned, high risk Appy). A few years ago I had a weekend callout when she came in with a puffy eye which didn't go down with bute and the locum vet told me about insidious uveitis. I never followed up, but if she ever ditches her mask and her eyes get watery then she is vile to headcollar and I suspect that is a thumping headache. She was incredibly unpredictable to ride and although I lead her out in hand now for exercise its obvious she still struggles with bright sunlight and very dark patches of shade. She stops dead and stares into the sky and back in her ridden days that was my cue to get off immediately before she exploded - on the ground its more manageable and I can bring her back into the present with a polo or similar.
What's yours like if you lead out in hand?
Spanish Dressage
Well-Known Member
Some very interesting points - thanks everyone for your replies. With his uvetis it is insidious - the expert was amazed I had spotted it so early on, no weeping etc literally just a bit of cloudiness. I am new to uvetis - so all responses are appreciated. We have talked about gent injections and implants etc. I have also asked whether testing for lepto etc would be a good idea but neither my vet or specialist thought it would make a difference. He came from continent at 2 years old so highly likely to be lepto. I had the conversation with my vet only last week about long term effects of bute, as I am concerned.
If I lead mine out in hand he is fine as well as leading him from another horse, absolutely fine on ground and in field. He lives in a mask all the time.
If I lead mine out in hand he is fine as well as leading him from another horse, absolutely fine on ground and in field. He lives in a mask all the time.
Spanish Dressage
Well-Known Member
Very interesting. Thank you for the link. I had not(stupidly) linked his behaviour to uvetis but now am really questioning it could be the underlying issue. Feel awful if he is still in lots of pain from his eyes and then have ridden him.I'm not sure if that is aimed at my post but sadly I do know about the condition and have been in the situation OP is in (minus any back pain) . I was very ignorant (despite many of years of horse keeping and riding) I managed to avoid one of us getting seriously hurt let alone the horse. JUST. I spent years trying to work out why I couldn't train my youngster. It never ever dawned on me in my wildest dreams what the problem was.
this. If the horse lives to say 20 is he going to be treated with steroid eye drops daily and presumably he is also on bute.
this link from UC Davis tells you about insidious ERU. It is easy to know you have a problem if you get symptoms eg running eye, eye closed etc (where it is normal to treat with eye drops,, bute, mask and keeping out of sunlight. Obviously no one would ride a horse in that condition. There is also insidious ERU which the link tells you about. Nothing to see, seems perfectly OK to ride. Horse however is in pain, vision is affected, reacts and then it can do anything. Being on it's back is not a good place to be.
Equine Recurrent Uveitis
Equine recurrent uveitis (ERU), or moon blindness, is the most common cause of blindness in horses worldwide. It is characterized by inflammation of the eye.ceh.vetmed.ucdavis.edu
the only way I learnt to diagnose insidious ERU was the horse's temperament. If he was OK and friendly etc he was fine but when he got offhand, a bit arsy and unpleasant I had a good idea we were coming into a problem. Then sometimes, but not always, I would go out the following day and find the eye running.
What was the outcome from your horse?
Spanish Dressage
Well-Known Member
Initially this is what I was thinking a sensitive tricky boy who needs a certain sympathetic approach, the guy who backed him said as much, but I want to rule out pain.
Glad to hear your boy has come around, and all your hard work has paid off. I have started doing some natural horsemanship groundwork with mine, trying to relax him. But heard good things about trt
paddy555
Well-Known Member
don't worry you are doing your best. At least you know the title to your thread now is rubbish. This is nothing to do with your ability it is due to trying to work out an evolving situation that is very difficult to figure out.
Mine had one eye removed, the ERU moved over to the 2nd eye after 6 months. That is still there. I had been prepared to remove it but he is coping.
Can't obviously be ridden, too dangerous as is leading out on the roads or anywhere that is not on our own property.
He has a good life retired and copes well. I am very lucky as my horses are at home so I control everything ie his field, boundaries etc etc. He may well cope blind idc.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
SEL
Well-Known Member
Well I only learnt it after we disappeared into an enormous drainage ditch backwards, sat on the bonnet of a car, nearly disappeared under the wheels of a tractor and showed off my impressive rodeo skills a few times. She's only 15.2 but feels like 19h when you need to make an emergency dismount.ah, you learnt the quick dismount.
In all honesty I don't know which of her many issues causes her to go from working nicely to frozen on the spot followed by explosions but I moved to my own yard and I hadn't intended to stop riding her (although we'd already stopped hacking on the roads) and then I just looked at her one day and realised that we were both much happier with me on the ground! There are days when I wonder but last night she lost her mask and it was windy. We walked in hand past the tree surgeons with their wood chipper without issue this morning then lost the plot at "something" in the hedge down the road. I don't need that unpredictability in my life. Too old!!
OP you have my sympathy. Unpicking tricky horses and working out whether its pain or training is a tough one. All we can do is start on one area at a time and see if helping that makes any improvement.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Sadly I agree.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if that is aimed at my post but sadly I do know about the condition and have been in the situation OP is in (minus any back pain) . I was very ignorant (despite many of years of horse keeping and riding) I managed to avoid one of us getting seriously hurt let alone the horse. JUST. I spent years trying to work out why I couldn't train my youngster. It never ever dawned on me in my wildest dreams what the problem was.
this. If the horse lives to say 20 is he going to be treated with steroid eye drops daily and presumably he is also on bute.
this link from UC Davis tells you about insidious ERU. It is easy to know you have a problem if you get symptoms eg running eye, eye closed etc (where it is normal to treat with eye drops,, bute, mask and keeping out of sunlight. Obviously no one would ride a horse in that condition. There is also insidious ERU which the link tells you about. Nothing to see, seems perfectly OK to ride. Horse however is in pain, vision is affected, reacts and then it can do anything. Being on it's back is not a good place to be.
Equine Recurrent Uveitis
Equine recurrent uveitis (ERU), or moon blindness, is the most common cause of blindness in horses worldwide. It is characterized by inflammation of the eye.
the only way I learnt to diagnose insidious ERU was the horse's temperament. If he was OK and friendly etc he was fine but when he got offhand, a bit arsy and unpleasant I had a good idea we were coming into a problem. Then sometimes, but not always, I would go out the following day and find the eye running.
As someone who has had uvetis the pain is like nothing else when it flares up, no painkillers even touch it. And even if its relatively stable its not pain free and its likely his vision is affected
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry you're suffering but thanks for posting to remind us how painful it is for them. After enucleation the vet asked if my horse had changed. I said he was now so loving, just rested his head in my lap and stayed there. (we stayed with him 24/7 for 3 days after his op.) She remarked that other clients had told her exactly the same.
You used the past tense. Have you ever got rid of it, controlled it or is life just flare ups? you are the first person I have found with uveitis so any help as to how you have dealt with it would be welcome.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Has he got German sporthorse lines in his breeding? If yes, I would get him to a proper expert on eyes and get him tested for leptospirosis. I have a horse who had chronic uveitis issues for years. We finally got it sorted this year after the Lepto diagnosis and a totally different horse. So much more chilled and happy. I don’t know how long it has bubbled causing pain even if you cannot see it and we have only dealt with chronic flair ups medicinally as easy to see.
Spanish Dressage
Well-Known Member
Yes he has - was imported as a 2 year old. He is already under one of the best experts in the country - or so I am told. Do you mind telling me what treatment your horse has had? I am pretty sure my horses was caused by lepto but neither my vet or the expert now think it's relevant. To be fair we are trying to control flare ups before any other treatment is administered. I have read gent injections are good for lepto causing uvetis.
Spanish Dressage
Well-Known Member
All of your replies have been really appreciated. It has made me realise I am not the problem as I feared.
I have made the decision to stop any kind of work with him, try to get the eyes completely managed and treated - if possible and see if there is an alternative to the bute, as I am worried it is causing hind gut issues. If after all of that I get to sit on him again in future and we still have issues then I will take it one step at a time, if I cannot sort the pain out and he has other issues, I will do the right thing by him and pts. But luckily they live at home, so he can have time and medication he needs until he tells me otherwise!
I have made the decision to stop any kind of work with him, try to get the eyes completely managed and treated - if possible and see if there is an alternative to the bute, as I am worried it is causing hind gut issues. If after all of that I get to sit on him again in future and we still have issues then I will take it one step at a time, if I cannot sort the pain out and he has other issues, I will do the right thing by him and pts. But luckily they live at home, so he can have time and medication he needs until he tells me otherwise!
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry you're suffering but thanks for posting to remind us how painful it is for them. After enucleation the vet asked if my horse had changed. I said he was now so loving, just rested his head in my lap and stayed there. (we stayed with him 24/7 for 3 days after his op.) She remarked that other clients had told her exactly the same.
You used the past tense. Have you ever got rid of it, controlled it or is life just flare ups? you are the first person I have found with uveitis so any help as to how you have dealt with it would be welcome.
mine has a specific trigger thank god. Ive had a lot of eye procedures and am still having injections monthly to try and stablise one eye. But I'm lucky in that we now know its caused by anything being done to my eye or any sort of eye trauma, so can get ahead of it with the steroid drops before it gets started.
When an attack hits I feel sick, and often throw up, the pain is like having a vice round my head getting tighter and tighter to start. Then it just gets unbearable. The worst episode I had, my vision went and the pain was so bad I collapsed screaming on the floor of A and E. I shattered my spine and never did anything like that. day to day when its not active its not a huge issue for me, but my sight is bad in bright light, and coming from bright to dark or vice versa I end up doing it blind as my eyes cant seem to process it. For a prey animal it must be terrifying. With the chronic type it will hurt all the time, not broken leg sort of pain, but achy sore sort of pain that never goes away and drives you slowly mad. like toothache in your eye. Horse drops might be different but I doubt it, and they make my vision blurred. I can see but its like someone has smeared vaseline over the screen of camera I'm looking through. I cant watch new tv shows as I cant see characters faces properly to get a grip on who people are for example.
It only hurts in your eyes, I've never had any referred pain, and never had any issues touching my face etc, and often put an eye patch on when its active as closing the eye helps a little. I can see why horses do better in masks. I think its the sort of thing you can cope with, but you hover close to the edge, so a saddle pinching or a sore back would easily tip any horse over into being explosive.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
lucky horse to live at home, so much more opportunity to keep going.
to my mind you are the client and if you are worried it could be lepto based I would insist on a test asap. For your own peace of mind if nothing else.
There are a lot of lepto ERUs in the US. They are on the FB group I suggested earlier. That would give you some background on the testing (and also how they d/w it)
That group provides some of the best advice there is as everyone has been through it and has had to research. There are also European ones so they may have ideas as to how they dealt with it as well.
Good luck. I hope you can make some progress. In the meantime I think post 34 on here is quite important. If his back humping is due to not so sympathetic breaking type problems there is nothing to stop you working from the ground with the saddle and possibly a rollar and dummy to try and progress this. He will probably enjoy the attention and you will get this lengthy process out of the way in case you can sit on him again.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
Wow, that is horrible for you. I'm so sorry.
Thanks for writing all that. It gives a very good insight and I can relate to a lot of it. Light to dark, for a horse it especially seems to be wind and obviously sunlight.
Horse drops are steroid drops so must be the same.
what a useful thread this has turned out to be Spanish Dressage.
Spanish Dressage
Well-Known Member
Thank you so much for your response - from a human perspective it is interesting, lots of parallels with horses, but so sorry you are in pain!
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
I think they tested for Lepto as both eyes flared while in hospital, one wasn’t worse than the other. We got one under control then the other would go mad.
My eye expert says it’s a German horse thing, he thinks some are prone to it due to genetics. The stats are up to 20% having it in Germany. says it’s much more common.
We have had intermittent flare ups for years but always managed well with localised treatment at home with steroids in eye cream and managed to calm again. This is British bred sport horse but German lines through the sire. Last year it went out of control so ended up at eye clinic and on levage to try and calm. Managed to calm but then flared again in other eye at clinic so tested for lepto and positive. We then got the lepto tested (over 200 different strains) to find out the strain so we could administer the right anti Bs. The lepto is actually DNA tested. We just injected anti Bs into the vitreous rather than doing what they do in Germany which is suck out the vitreous as usually where the bacteria is.
We did have to get the flare ups under control before we could administer but they could test anytime. We have literally had no issues since treating for Lepto. Before we were walking on egg shells all the time with her eyes. She still lives in a fly mask while out but the worry we had is gone. We are now 1 year in from treatment. She goes to clinic to check eyes once a year mainly because the damage from the flare ups caused cataracts but they are tiny and at her last check hadn’t evolved or changed in 6 months.
The test for Lepto is ok cost wise. The treatment is expensive mainly because of the lab tests to find the strain and match the right Anti Bs. Think that alone was £2k. The anti Bs were cheap. All in all it cost us £12k but the bulk of that cost was the 2 weeks in the hospital with the steroids when it went mad. We thought we were going to have to PTS as no long term solution, couldn’t control the flare ups and couldn’t remove the eye as both were the issue.
We did have a mini flare up after treatment but barely noticeable but caught by our home vet and we think this was just the tail end of the original flare and anti bs hadn’t quite activated.
Our timeline was:
2nd Aug initial flare up at home - had home vet out - steroid.
5th - no improvement - serious issue.
6th sent to hospital.
2 weeks in hospital. Tested for Lepto. Managed to calm flares eventually in both eyes. Came home after 2 weeks. Shoes pulled and no work. We didn’t want any stress to cause an issue or set her back. On steroid pills and bute for 2 weeks.
19th Sept treated for Lepto at hospital. Long lasting steroid given in eye as well as anti bs.
22nd Sept vet check and small flare. Very minor and caught early. Treated at home with steroid pills and bute. We were most worried about her coming off the steroids as would tell us if still had an issue.
14th November - back to hospital for check - all signed off returned to work. More long action steroid put in eyes as a precaution.
Anyway that was an essay!
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Spanish Dressage
Well-Known Member
Wow. Thank you for the detail on your horse. So glad the treatment has worked for your mare and she has not had.any more recent flare ups. Very very interesting. Do you mind me asking which hospital she went to and under which vet?
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
I've been told cataracts are a given for me, it's not if it's when, so I guess that's another common theme. I am fine nearly all of the time now. Theres been no flare up for a couple of years, as we pre-empt it. Do they scan horses eyes with the kit they have for humans? Mine doesn't look too bad when examined normally, but if you scan then you can see all the damage that's been caused.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Rowe Equine- Equine Eye Clinic
The Equine Eye Clinic was set up in 2003 by senior Ophthalmologist and partner in Rowe Veterinary Group, Tim Knott. The Equine Eye Clinic deals with a wide range of equine eye conditions from cataracts to chronic ulceration. Tim works with the Rowe Equine
www.roweequine.com
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
They use an iPhone with a magnifying app!! It’s truly really cool as you can see everything including damage. They also use air test, cotton wool thrown in air from different angles as they flick their ears. They also have a magnifying lense but no scanner yet for 3D like opticians.
Our horse you can see tiny wrinkles as well where the retina detached and then reattached. The damage done during UV flares is huge and you have no idea. The eye literally attacks itself as on a different immune system.
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LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
@Spanish Dressage i should add mine has had chronic ulcers as well…. That was as a 6yo but again we think she has had underlying UV her whole life. Think her first eye flare up was at 4 then roughly had one once every 18 months that we have treated for but you don’t know what’s rumbling. She was always quite a sharp horse but she became really cross in her work and very bucky.
Physio wise used to get so tight in the poll/neck and at one point became tricky to put a bridle on due to ears then promptly had a massive flare up.
We used to have physio every 2-3 months as would become blocked through neck and RH leg. This year we have had physio once, maybe twice.
Added some pictures of where she is now. Competing at FEI.
Physio wise used to get so tight in the poll/neck and at one point became tricky to put a bridle on due to ears then promptly had a massive flare up.
We used to have physio every 2-3 months as would become blocked through neck and RH leg. This year we have had physio once, maybe twice.
Added some pictures of where she is now. Competing at FEI.
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Spanish Dressage
Well-Known Member
Wow. She looks amazing now!
Your story is so inspiring, thank god you persevered with her and sought out the right treatment.