‘Most’ UK horses aren’t getting basic needs met - H&H Study

paddy555 said:
that is absolutely true the solution isn't in work alone but it is a fair part of it. Is walking around on a walker or going round a school good enough from the horse's mental POV? Possibly if the horse is out at grass or on a track etc being a horse for long periods. If confined to stabling for large amounts of time then it is very questionable if mentally it is sufficient.
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I don't think walkers are part of the solution at all - they're part of the problem. Arena usage is complicated - it allows for more stimulating exercise (decent schooling, jumping, game playing with obstacles etc) but comes with the potential for surface-related injuries. At best arenas are a small part of the solution.

The solution has to be in intelligent land usage - tracks and well designed surfaced paddocks where the land itself can't sustain turnout. The solution can't be in work to any great extent or we're failing all those horses who aren't capable of work.
 
JFTDWS said:
The solution has to be in intelligent land usage - tracks and well designed surfaced paddocks where the land itself can't sustain turnout.
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Totally agree with you and that is what I did for mine about 25 years ago. Now all you have to do is persuade livery yard owners that a bit of a change is required and owners that their school etc is now going to be part of your intelligent land usage. :D:D:D
 
Goldenstar said:
Actually loads of people want the former horse the issue is they not bred in the number they where and people end buying the less good examples of the latter horse after the super talented ones have gone off at huge money ..
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Yes, no one wants to breed ordinary horses 'cause there's no glory in it despite the fact that there will be more wastage and the costs much the same.
 
Goldenstar said:
We are reaching a tipping point and the number of leisure horses is about to start reducing because of the difficulties of finding them a safe place to live .
people will just give up.
It’s going to get harder and harder .
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Not just that, it's costs too, people are struggling to pay their own bills, let alone a horse's bills.
 
paddy555 said:
Totally agree with you and that is what I did for mine about 25 years ago. Now all you have to do is persuade livery yard owners that a bit of a change is required and owners that their school etc is now going to be part of your intelligent land usage. :D:D:D
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Would you need to get councils/planning on board? I can see it as much better for the land than poached swamps. Tracks with natural hedging and trees you could put in wild flower edges and herbs for biodiversity maybe some ponds much better for nature but I doubt you'd be able to do it on a lot of land??
 
paddy555 said:
Totally agree with you and that is what I did for mine about 25 years ago. Now all you have to do is persuade livery yard owners that a bit of a change is required and owners that their school etc is now going to be part of your intelligent land usage. :D:D:D
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I mean, I don't think it's necessarily either or with an arena. Personally, if money were no object, I'd have an arena as part of my surfaced land / track for my own herd, and just shut them out of it when I wanted to ride (or ride with them loose because they're mine!), but on a commercial livery situation, I'd imagine you would have a separate arena, coupled with either herd turnout on a track, or smaller paired pens, possibly leading off stables or with some short track elements, at the very least individual pens outside of stables with the ability to interact with others over fences. Surfacing would need to preserve drainage, and you'd probably need mitigation in terms of plant species. It wouldn't be a cheap or an easy project!

What owners would need to accept is the cost associated with that kind of input, and I'm not sure that's achievable for livery owners right now. It would be a brave owner who put in that level of investment and charged accordingly!
 
Traditionally the solution for horses in work was work. Youngstock, retired horses and convalescents lived elsewhere - in fields further from built up areas.

I’m not sure exactly how you would change that model for many parts of the country. I was able to retire my mare at home only because we had the acreage - if she was still alive today I would have had to send her off with my youngsters this winter. My youngsters went out away from home in a field that was big enough to trim their hooves from just them running and playing and that could sustain them staying out 24/7. I will make the same decision next winter as anything not in full work does absolutely not need to be stabled, even if that means they get the winter off.
 
We are on Somerset levels and been here for 45 years on same land and global warming has changed the way we do things as used to go out all year on grass. Simply can’t do that now with rain and being so mild so had a decent size all weather turnout built. They can hoon around, roll and interact with their companion so don’t feel too bad. As soon as we get a decent frost they are out and been so pleased this year we are dry as out until December as it was dry November and been out for last few weeks as dry and frosty.
 
I think a lot of the problem is down to stables/ yards being an easy target for development. Yards around here are being closed left, right and centre to build houses or storage units. You can’t just magic away a horse because you can’t find a yard that meets every minute need for the horse. There are less and less yards to choose from. That coupled with a wetter climate really limits what is suitable and available.

This last year I’ve found it really difficult to find a suitable yard after my long-term yard closed down. I’ve ended up with my horses in two different places as I couldn’t find everything at one yard I needed for both.

I don’t think horses are any worse off now than they’ve been in the past. Maybe some of the issues are different but I think it’s more down to changes in what we feel is ethical.
 
Sussexbythesea said:
You can’t just magic away a horse because you can’t find a yard that meets every minute need for the horse. There are less and less yards to choose from. That coupled with a wetter climate really limits what is suitable and available.
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Basic right to freedom is not a ‘minute need’, it is one of the absolute essentials. The more people justify bad (cruel) management to themselves because ‘it’s hard to find a yard’ or ‘Dobbin 10yrs ago was fine with it’, the more horses just carry on quietly suffering.
If you can’t find a yard, move locations, buy your own bit of land to manage or sell/ loan the horse. You always have a choice, the horse does not.
 
Ambers Echo said:
And also being over-horsed: one driver of poor care was ‘mismatch between supply and demand of certain types of equine’.

I took that to mean not enough safe sensible horses. Perhaps because no one can make money by breeding safe allrounders any more?
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I'm noticing this at the very beginning of my horse buying journey. Even when I think I'm filtering for the type of horse I need, it seems like endless competition horses. 'Flashy, talented, grassroots eventing potential' etc. I don't need any of those things and I worry that those types will be too much horse for me even if they are lovely easy horses for someone with more experience.

The other thing is lots of young horses for sale (presumably for the reason you say which is the cost of producing them that bit more with no guarantee it will pay off). I had a conversation with my instructor about this yesterday, as I'd have to add in to the livery budget the cost of riding/schooling for any 'firsts'.

The turnout barn thing reminded me of when I was a child and the RS brought all the ponies into a huge barn for the winter. I'd totally forgotten about that. I'm not completely sure why they did it. I don't remember the field conditions but I do remember that it was so huge you had to go properly out searching for ponies reluctant to come in!

On turnout, one thing I'm finding now I'm looking a bit more seriously is that often yards have turnout advertised but it's individual only. I know there may be some horses this is appropriate for but as a blanket 'rule'? I find that off putting and it gives me 'postage stamp paddock with no shelter' vibes.
 
All weather turnout areas are the way forwards now, for winter turnout.

There are lots of yards now offering them, one my friend went to you could leave your horse out with 5-7 others with shelter natural and man made and ad lib hay/haylege 24/7 365.

Problem is these cost a fortune to get up and running, I kept Faran in one in winter with his pal until he was three, was a fab solution in winter but not all yards offer it. I’m lucking in that I have two acres to myself to use and can make a track in summer then give him the rest in winter but not everyone has the luxury of that.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
I'm noticing this at the very beginning of my horse buying journey. Even when I think I'm filtering for the type of horse I need, it seems like endless competition horses. 'Flashy, talented, grassroots eventing potential' etc. I don't need any of those things and I worry that those types will be too much horse for me even if they are lovely easy horses for someone with more experience.

The other thing is lots of young horses for sale (presumably for the reason you say which is the cost of producing them that bit more with no guarantee it will pay off). I had a conversation with my instructor about this yesterday, as I'd have to add in to the livery budget the cost of riding/schooling for any 'firsts'.

The turnout barn thing reminded me of when I was a child and the RS brought all the ponies into a huge barn for the winter. I'd totally forgotten about that. I'm not completely sure why they did it. I don't remember the field conditions but I do remember that it was so huge you had to go properly out searching for ponies reluctant to come in!

On turnout, one thing I'm finding now I'm looking a bit more seriously is that often yards have turnout advertised but it's individual only. I know there may be some horses this is appropriate for but as a blanket 'rule'? I find that off putting and it gives me 'postage stamp paddock with no shelter' vibes.
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What I remember of livery yards as a kid were massive fields with lots of horses & ponies living out. That sort of thing started to disappear through my teens.
 
marmalade76 said:
Not just that, it's costs too, people are struggling to pay their own bills, let alone a horse's bills.
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The costs of keeping horses is increasing, the cost of vet care in particular has increased sharply.
For me the pleasure verses costs balance has now tipped the wrong way.
I keep my horses at home and the mortgage on the place is paid off but still I feel it’s just ridiculous.
Of course I am older that drives things as well .
We seen the golden age of leisure horse ownership rising costs and pressure on land use combined with more people being engaged with the ethics around how horses are kept is going to bite soon .
If livery was more expensive then more yards could invest in infrastructure to enrich the inmates , sorry I meant the clients horses lives but the market can’t take it .
The horse industry is always an interesting way to view people’s feelings about how the economy is going .
This discussion is going everywhere apart from the ivory towers of the super rich parts of the industry.
We are heading into a perfect storm.
 
TheMule said:
Basic right to freedom is not a ‘minute need’, it is one of the absolute essentials. The more people justify bad (cruel) management to themselves because ‘it’s hard to find a yard’ or ‘Dobbin 10yrs ago was fine with it’, the more horses just carry on quietly suffering.
If you can’t find a yard, move locations, buy your own bit of land to manage or sell/ loan the horse. You always have a choice, the horse does not.
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How do you know if you sell the horse it will be looked after better? Loans go wrong all the time. How do you just sell your house and start again somewhere hundreds of miles away on your own. It’s costly I am on a single income and there’s no way I can afford to buy anything with land.

I’m being a bit Devils advocate here because my horses have always had great turn out and it’s a top priority for me but I know it’s just not as easy as people make it out to be the last year has been hellish finding a decent yard.
 
marmalade76 said:
Yes, no one wants to breed ordinary horses 'cause there's no glory in it despite the fact that there will be more wastage and the costs much the same.
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That’s it ,
I have a big cob he's Clydesdale / ID he would suit a huge range of people who want a horse to enjoy.
If someone could get a steady supply of these they’d to start well you could sell them everyday of the week .
There’s a huge unmet demand for horses like this.
 
marmalade76 said:
What I remember of livery yards as a kid were massive fields with lots of horses & ponies living out. That sort of thing started to disappear through my teens.
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I'm going to have a look at what's become of those RS yards I used to ride at (early 2000s). Fairly sure at least two are now upmarket livery/competition places. It will be interesting to see how things have changed.

The one with the really huge field we used to get to bareback ride and lead them back to the field at the end of the day and all got piled into the back of an old Land Rover to come back. Good times. I am not sure that would happen now!
 
I am very "horse first" and while I look for turnout, and I've moved from in the last 12 months to be on a yard that suits us better, with more/better turnout it's not perfect. I could look to buy or rent a field, I certainly can't afford to have my own proper set up. But even if I did i wouldn't be keeping a pink skinned sports horse out on Lancashire clay 12 months of the year. So should I sell and give up? I don't believe I should (yet) because I am very horse first. I'm doing the best I can and working hard to do better. I'm not sure simply saying "not good enough" is all that helpful. If anything it disheartens people from even trying because apparently the best we can do just isn't good enough.
 
Not in the UK, but similar issues seen over here in France, with the ethics of keeping horses in or on individual turnout just starting to catch up. We do have the advantage of less people and more space for now.

I agree with the poster that said you can't just magic your horse away. Horses live a long time and if you bought your horse 15 years ago, when there was plenty of space and colder, drier winters, you may be rather stuck as livery yards disappear and close of their winter grazing. Some options may be available like sending further away to retirement type livery, or of course selling. But selling doesn't guarantee your horse will have better life conditions, just that you don't have to look at them or have any input in them. I will also assume there are a limited number of retirement spaces available, however far you send your horse away, so not everyone would be able to do this. I understand that some people with longstanding horses and changing conditions may have to make the best of a bad situation for the life time of their current horse.

I don't particularly like individual turn out as it is mostly done over here, postage stamp mud or dust pits depending on the season, which mainly seem to be more about making owners feel better than actual benefit for the horse. Some are barely bigger than the stables the horse came out of. My two are technically on individual turnout 25 to 50% of the time, so that my Old Lady can receive extra food without Little Madam stealing it, but they have roughly 4000m² each with hedges around each section and a "speaking spot" at the gateway. They spend the rest of the time together.

My friend keeps her horse at a livery where the horses are kept in relatively stable groups (I think 8 to 10 horses) in a large enclosure with a three sided barn in it. The barn has straw down, they is a large hay feeder in the middle of the enclosure and water trough at one end. This does give the horses opportunity for social interactions, and the freedom to choose where they want to be (in or out). However, she finds this set up doesn't encourage much movement as the horses mostly hang around the hay feeder. In this case there is also no grass turnout at all as it is reserved for breeders, youngstock and hay making. It does however allow the keeping of horses on a relatively small space whilst respecting their needs. With a bit more space they could have access to grass part of the year (though this may not be desirable for some horses with metabolic issues).

We also have a mismatch between the type of horses needed and the type bred. With artificial insemination, it is easy to get "big name" stallions for your very average or broken mare in the hopes of breeding the next Olympic champion. However often these horses are not amateur friendly as well as not being quite good enough for the pros, leaving them in a limbo of being passed from one over-horsed owner to the next. There doesn't seem to be much breeding of genuine leisure or family horses, unless they are American breeds with fancy colours or Irish cobs, which can command quite a price over here. I know at least two younger people who are breeding because "they've always wanted to breed horses and the mare isn't doing anything else" with no concrete plans for the foal. One from a gift mare because she happened to be free. Mare is supposed to have a fairly good conformation but is barely handled, to the point the stud suggested natural mounting as they couldn't handle her. Not promising for a well rounded foal. The other from a mare with known back issues that the osteopath said would take multiple sessions to gradually put right after the mare tried to kick her in pain. I don't think owner bothered with multiple sessions. Also not overly promising for the mare or the foal's future.
 
When I moved house a year or so ago, and I was looking for a livery yard, the yard I went to view I asked about winter turnout (as I was going from herd turnout 24/7 to DIY with a stable and paired turnout) they promised the world when in realty during the winter he ended up being in most of the time. It is difficult when you don't know the area and are only going off what they tell you but as I realised that this is actually probably the norm for that yard - and the realisation that after almost year I was one of the longest staying liveries... - I moved off that yard as soon as I could to one that turns out every single day and he's now back in a herd. The yard is more expensive and further away but both of us are happier and less stressed for it. I just had to wait for the livery space to become available!
I would never go back to a yard with individual or paired turnout, I can see how much he enjoys his time out in the field, he's often found playing with the younger horses, and also how much better he is moving with his arthritis. The others that did enjoy the yard I left were the types to leave their horses in for weeks on end and I just couldn't do that to mine. And they wondered why they were explosive when they rode!
 
Roasted Chestnuts said:
All weather turnout areas are the way forwards now, for winter turnout.

There are lots of yards now offering them, one my friend went to you could leave your horse out with 5-7 others with shelter natural and man made and ad lib hay/haylege 24/7 365.

Problem is these cost a fortune to get up and running, I kept Faran in one in winter with his pal until he was three, was a fab solution in winter but not all yards offer it. I’m lucking in that I have two acres to myself to use and can make a track in summer then give him the rest in winter but not everyone has the luxury of that.
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I have been lucky that both yards I've been on have all day hard standing turnout in winter. One with groups (but only given nets in the morning so it was a group of hungry horses by midday) and the current with large individual pens so not in with friends but she has forage all day. So even with that there has been a compromise.

And I am lucky, a lot of yards in the area have hard standing but it is the size of a stable and shared so you only get it for a couple of hours, or while you muck out. A couple I know of have a few hours of field time a day in winter but one is over an hour away from me (have still considered it) and the other is like a vipers den for gossip and nastiness and the hacking is awful. I literally have a spreadsheet of every yard in an hour's radius (which covers half the province tbh) and there are compromises with every one of them.
 
I was in a livery where one owner had to warn anyone in the arena if she was about to turn out. Every day without fail her horse would do 0-30mph in one bound and tear off up the 5 acre field he was in bucking.

She was a returner to the yard. She had gone somewhere posher with better facilities and better hacking and compulsory single turnout in half an acre each, and then found she couldn't stay on her horse when she rode. He was a lamb if he got group turnout in a field big enough to have a whizz.
.
 
marmalade76 said:
What I remember of livery yards as a kid were massive fields with lots of horses & ponies living out. That sort of thing started to disappear through my teens.
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Certainly the RS where I started riding kept the ponies living out and brought them in on weekend mornings, when they were busiest. Some ponies were in stalls in between rides, while there were a few, large stables taken up in winter by liveries, which were definitely not core business and the hunters who were in work. That land mostly was spread around the district and rented from the LA and has since been built on, even the stables are now part of a housing estate. The RS relocated so far away that they couldn't take their clients either them but they now own their own land and have diversified the business, which should secure their future.
We have kept 5 horses on our land, in overnight in winter but it is difficult to compare with now, as we were able to rent summer grazing from a neighbour who has since sold up. We now have just 2 living out 24/7 with man-made shelter and rugs in the worst weather. We couldn't do it, though without mud control mats.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
I'm noticing this at the very beginning of my horse buying journey. Even when I think I'm filtering for the type of horse I need, it seems like endless competition horses. 'Flashy, talented, grassroots eventing potential' etc. I don't need any of those things and I worry that those types will be too much horse for me even if they are lovely easy horses for someone with more experience.
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When I was looking 3 years ago I also saw a lot of flashy types but I'd already decided I was too old for that. Looking locally actually helped me. We have some producers / sellers around here who are small scale, genuine and really care about matching you with the right horse. It's definitely worth your instructor keeping an eye out too.

In fact I think livery yard searching is more stressful than horse hunting! 2 of my old ones have gone for housing and I think another will at somepoint.
 
The RS I spent my formative years in winter the ponies had daily turnout in a field of deep mud, horses took turns in the other mud patches - a couple of times a week. We spent a lot of time looking for shoes. I don’t remember putting much/any hay out. Clay bit of Somerset levels.
There was a very very loud sigh of relief for everyone when they could move into the summer fields. They had more land but that was farm rather than RS

Current yard some do stay out 24/7 but we’ve always limited grass growth. I didn’t realise how much grass grew at mums till I moved counties 😅
 
I was talking about this last night with another livery, my childhood RS was very horse-first. Proper turnout, never overworked, never stood in tack, you used a stick at her specific direction ONLY, every horse treated like every single one was her own heart horse. When she closed (land is now houses, of course) the ones she had left came with her and were/ are kept semi-retired with unofficial "loaners" until they pass. When I went to a "commercial" RS as an adult it was like a slap in the face. Don't know what you have till it's gone!

We never got the "weekend kids running the yard" experience that so many people did, as she wouldn't trust her horses to children, and I think she was right 😂
 
Goldenstar said:
The costs of keeping horses is increasing, the cost of vet care in particular has increased sharply.
For me the pleasure verses costs balance has now tipped the wrong way.
I keep my horses at home and the mortgage on the place is paid off but still I feel it’s just ridiculous.
Of course I am older that drives things as well .
We seen the golden age of leisure horse ownership rising costs and pressure on land use combined with more people being engaged with the ethics around how horses are kept is going to bite soon .
If livery was more expensive then more yards could invest in infrastructure to enrich the inmates , sorry I meant the clients horses lives but the market can’t take it .
The horse industry is always an interesting way to view people’s feelings about how the economy is going .
This discussion is going everywhere apart from the ivory towers of the super rich parts of the industry.
We are heading into a perfect storm.
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TBH I think we've seen the golden age of most things.
 
The RS I was at as a kid, which wasn't an especially good one, used to turn the ponies out in the indoor arena with hay nets at night. Often in the dead of winter, there would be ponies tied at either end of the (large) arena during the day, and poles marking out the working area. It was, in hindsight, a H&S nightmare! One field was dryish for most of winter - horses were stabled and went out in that field. Some horses didn't do much work and didn't get out much either - their lives were pretty miserable really. This would've been around the turn of the millenium, for context.

To be fair, I don't think anyone is saying "turn out 24/7 in deep mud or sell" - people are saying that things need to change so that these aren't people's only options. A surfaced area is achievable on rented land - mud control mats (or similar) are expensive but effective to create some hard standing or a track. If liveries pushed for these types of horse accommodations instead of human conveniences, that might promote change in higher end yards. The space used for a horse walker, for example, would make a small two horse pen for a fraction of the cost. For the cost of the walker. but a bit more space, you could have multiple pens, and horses could have a few hours each in paired turnout each day. That's not how I would choose to keep horses, but it's a lot better than the current situation on some yards.

I left an expensive full livery yard largely because of the poor turnout in winter. They had "nice" human facilities - a tea room with sofas, a huge square yard which looked posh (a massive waste of space!), one good sized indoor arena and another one that was massive, huge surfaced parking area and unused fields with jumps and gallops. They've recently put in another indoor arena, but there is, if anything, less turnout for more horses. They have all the potential for putting in turnout - e.g. creative adaptation of a section of the car park, or surfaced pens instead of the extra arena. There's so much wasted space. But that's not what many people seem to want to pay for.
 
JFTDWS said:
The RS I was at as a kid, which wasn't an especially good one, used to turn the ponies out in the indoor arena with hay nets at night. Often in the dead of winter, there would be ponies tied at either end of the (large) arena during the day, and poles marking out the working area. It was, in hindsight, a H&S nightmare! One field was dryish for most of winter - horses were stabled and went out in that field. Some horses didn't do much work and didn't get out much either - their lives were pretty miserable really. This would've been around the turn of the millenium, for context.

To be fair, I don't think anyone is saying "turn out 24/7 in deep mud or sell" - people are saying that things need to change so that these aren't people's only options. A surfaced area is achievable on rented land - mud control mats (or similar) are expensive but effective to create some hard standing or a track. If liveries pushed for these types of horse accommodations instead of human conveniences, that might promote change in higher end yards. The space used for a horse walker, for example, would make a small two horse pen for a fraction of the cost. For the cost of the walker. but a bit more space, you could have multiple pens, and horses could have a few hours each in paired turnout each day. That's not how I would choose to keep horses, but it's a lot better than the current situation on some yards.

I left an expensive full livery yard largely because of the poor turnout in winter. They had "nice" human facilities - a tea room with sofas, a huge square yard which looked posh (a massive waste of space!), one good sized indoor arena and another one that was massive, huge surfaced parking area and unused fields with jumps and gallops. They've recently put in another indoor arena, but there is, if anything, less turnout for more horses. They have all the potential for putting in turnout - e.g. creative adaptation of a section of the car park, or surfaced pens instead of the extra arena. There's so much wasted space. But that's not what many people seem to want to pay for.
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I think these types of places are more frustrating than the run on a shoestring type places; when there's clearly big budgets available to do significant work but none of it is horse-centred at all.
 
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