2 more horses die at cheltenham today :( :(
- Thread starter Milanesa
- Start date
dominobrown
Well-Known Member
People, the only way you can get a poster like shelbie to make any sense, is to send her to work in a racing yard for like a fortnight or something, and so she/he can see first hand what really happens, what its really like etc. I think it would do he/she a lot of good, and help her/him make a valid arguement instead of spouting a uneducated opinion plucked from thin air. I think it would do a lot of people a lot of good and help people see what racing is really like. Poor trainers having to put with someone like that though! 
Seriously though....
People who work with racehorse- There are a lot easier ways to make a lot more money than working with horses, in racing, or any other equestrian sport. The trainer, jockeys and stable staff deffo aren't there for the money only. They are there because they want to work with horses
Seriously though....
People who work with racehorse- There are a lot easier ways to make a lot more money than working with horses, in racing, or any other equestrian sport. The trainer, jockeys and stable staff deffo aren't there for the money only. They are there because they want to work with horses
shelbie
Active Member
Thank you "LITTLE SQUIRREL" I appreciate you talking to me in a reasonable manner. I do understand abuse goes on , not just in raceing but in all walks of life where animals are concerned. This doesnt mean that I agree with it but I do take your point.
Alec Swan
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shelbie,
whether others want me to apologise on their behalf's, I'm not sure, but you have to understand that the bulk of those who've argued with you, do so from the point of experience. These people care passionately about their charges, and to suggest that racing is just about money, is entirely wrong. It's also insulting, to most.
Little Squirrel's last post, but one, summed up the passion, the care, and the sense of duty, that others feel. To tell these people that they are wrong, and to suggest that they have no sense of duty towards their charges, is quite wrong.
As another has suggested, work within the industry, and then you will have an opinion of worth. I'm sorry, but that's how it is.
Alec.
whether others want me to apologise on their behalf's, I'm not sure, but you have to understand that the bulk of those who've argued with you, do so from the point of experience. These people care passionately about their charges, and to suggest that racing is just about money, is entirely wrong. It's also insulting, to most.
Little Squirrel's last post, but one, summed up the passion, the care, and the sense of duty, that others feel. To tell these people that they are wrong, and to suggest that they have no sense of duty towards their charges, is quite wrong.
As another has suggested, work within the industry, and then you will have an opinion of worth. I'm sorry, but that's how it is.
Alec.
Fantasy_World
Well-Known Member
Alec I have to agree with you as I have met some fantastic people in racing from jockeys, trainers, owners, head lads and grooms. Most of the people I have met have seemed to be very caring and compassionate towards the horses they are dealing with. However like in any other industry in which animals are used to try and make money or make a name for oneself there will always be people who really should not have any involvement at all with animals. It happens in racing just like in any other industry. However horse racing in the UK does have proper regulation both on the track and at the stables. Stables and premises are inspected and any wrong doings will be acted upon. Personally I would like to see this set up to do the same at livery yards and competition yards up and down the country. May just stop some people in their tracks
What bothers me though in racing is what happens to horses leaving racing, being bred for it and those not good enough to race. Not enough is done in my opinion and these horses need a bigger voice than they have at present. There is sweeping under the carpet in the industry and this has to stop. While I don't appreciate deaths on a racetrack I would rather see more being done to help the horses mentioned above than more safety measures at the tracks. Accidents will happen whatever safety procedures you have in place. Could anyone have anticipated Wishfull Thinking falling and rolling under the rails and injuring a photographer at Cheltenham for instance? Of course they couldn't.
However improved traceability of horses leaving the industry needs to be achieved. Owners should be made to pay into a fund that secures a home for life for their horse when it leaves racing, even if they have provisions in place. Proper regulation of passports and updating of horses entering another sphere or deceased, and make this information available to the public! I think the more the public knows the cleaner the industry will become. Breeding restrictions on horses. Only horses from certain pedigrees being allowed to breed or else ones who have achieved certain grades whilst racing.
There is so much more to be done in the industry and it is far more important than moving fences/hurdles, watering tracks etc in my view. They are important, but we need to tackle the roots and ends in racing first to improve the stock we are allowing to enter racing, particularly in National Hunt where there are too many 'fragile' flat racing horses switching codes or being bred. The ends, ie where these horses end up and ensuring a good home or a dignified end if a good home cannot be sought and not just breeding horses for tins or zoos!!!!
shelbie
Active Member
Thank you , Thank you FANTASY WORLD, At last someone with some sense, my sentiments entirely.
tristar
Well-Known Member
shelbie, they have previously said,' if you don't like watching it, turn it off'!
thats the easy bit, to look the other way, but it takes courage to stand up and say it as you see it.
i think 'there's none so blind as those that don't want to see' when it comes to the overall carnage that happens in certain areas of horse racing, especially disposal and export of tb's for meat for example.
maybe most improvements in horse welfare have come about because someone, somewhere had the audacity to complain about things they did'nt consider to be humane.
thats the easy bit, to look the other way, but it takes courage to stand up and say it as you see it.
i think 'there's none so blind as those that don't want to see' when it comes to the overall carnage that happens in certain areas of horse racing, especially disposal and export of tb's for meat for example.
maybe most improvements in horse welfare have come about because someone, somewhere had the audacity to complain about things they did'nt consider to be humane.
Alec Swan
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It seems to me that race horses are bred for one purpose and one only. The odd failed horse will, if it's female, find a way into a life as a brood mare for sport horse breeding. Regardless of gender, the odd failed race horse will also be re-schooled and ridden out, as a riding horse. Some, but precious few, with remarkable success.
The above pitifully few TBs will be a minuscule proportion of the annually born foal quota. What is to happen to the rest? As I see it, they are the residue of an industry, which if public opinion would allow, would accept that an instantaneous end to life would be the most humane and correct end.
The problem arises when the failures are offered onto the ridden market (and yes, I've bought them), at £500, with tales that the horse actually owes someone £100k, and the trainer or agent sees a quick half-a-k in it, and these poor creatures end up in the most dire of homes with those who are completely out of their depth.
Were I a failed TB, I know what I'd prefer.
Alec.
tristar
Well-Known Member
mr Swan, if there is such a thing as re-incarnation and karma, i think you stand a good chance finding out in your next life!
i should have said LIVE export, to italy in a lorry with no partitions, i do apologise.
i should have said LIVE export, to italy in a lorry with no partitions, i do apologise.
Fantasy_World
Well-Known Member
Alec, what is needed is more establishments to re-school ex racers. At the moment we have but a few to cope with the substantial amount of horses that leave racing. If the horses are properly re-schooled and matched up with the right owners then they will find good homes. However on the other hand you do not have to be a person with an immense schooling background to be able to get an ex racer backed and ridden. I may have ridden for a number of years but I am not the best schooled rider in the world and nor do I do much schooling with my horses. When I got my ex racer 3 years ago she was not in the best of condition but she had been a broodmare after racing on both codes so was not fresh from the track so to speak. I did lunging with her and a friend rode her and schooled her for me. This person although what I would say was a good rider was not someone who had been intensively schooled either and none of us had experience of ex racers. I don't ride my mare as someone else does but I do handle her, groom etc. The person that rides her is fairly new to riding only having learned when they met me. However they get on like a dream and and the mare can go very fast when she wants to. She has been to a ride where there were many horses and open fields and no mishaps. She does listen and does have good brakes. She can still fizz up, ie cantering on the spot, sideways, head shaking, bit crunching and so on. But her rider is able to be calm enough to understand what presses her buttons and knows when to ask her to go and when to slow down as boiling over.
I think where a lot of people go wrong with ex racers is that they see a chance to make a quick buck. A cheap horse, often looking in shape, if from the track. They then treat them as you would any other horse. With TBs and ex racers you cannot have that approach. You have to understand that these horses are trained to the minute and harness the flight response. Yes they are still a horse like any other but one must understand them a bit more and understand when the time is right to cease training or to switch them off. Some do need more time than others and having seen how some people break in and produce horses it is little wonder that many of them end up as nutjobs or get passed around later on. It all revolves around money, the less time someone has a horse the less it will cost and the more they can make.
It has taken me over 2 years to fully understand my cob for instance. That is because he was not rushed and was allowed to finish maturing in his head and body. That I feel has paid off because I now have a horse I would not change for the world and love him to bits.
The TB has taken more time and I am still learning because she was never a one person horse and has done her fair share of racing before travelling around to various studs etc. She does seem to prefer men though I feel.
I think we often ask too much of our horses too quickly. I am not a competing person and that probably shows, but do I give a damn, no not really.
Don't get me wrong I love racing and have done for many, many years. However it does sadden me about what happens to the ones that leave racing, amongst others.
Perhaps it may be prudent to not allow the sale of ex racers at sales except for racing dispersal sales, store sales, youngstock etc.
I have seen ex racers at Brightwells for instance at Leominster and they were cheap uns.
Perhaps there could be a licensing system for owners of TBs. Current owners and prospective owners need to have a special licence to own or buy one. If a fee is involved too then the fact you have to pay out before you can even go to buy a TB may stop people from buying that breed for the chance to make a quick buck.
I understand though that not all can be saved and many will still unfortunately have to be slaughtered as there will never be enough homes for all the horses, especially when you consider other horse breeds that are overbred which flood the horse market.
I think every riding school should have at least one ex racer, properly schooled to teach more riders about the breed so that they can then consider them as an option when they are looking to buy their own horse.
There should also be a licence for anyone to keep horses and people should have to pass a test, theory and practical to be able to loan or own a horse and pony, and should count across the whole board of horse owners, even those who use other people's land to dump their horses!
Elf On A Shelf
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The next question would be - if everyone took on an ex-racer then who would buy the coloured cobs to ride? Surely these would then be on the next boat to nowhere?
It's a vicious circle but at least Racing takes account of it's rejects for the most part.
It's a vicious circle but at least Racing takes account of it's rejects for the most part.
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
Oh Lordy Lordy!! Fanstay World yes in someways you are right,giving horses time, a lot of us oldies have been saying I don't know how many times,but very few people listen.There is wastage in horses,doesn't matter what they do,racing dressage,showjumping,showing, and the ordinary hacks.But if we had to prove by taking test that we were fit to look after animals then I think you should do the same if we would be fit to have children and I think everyone would fail.
Fantasy_World
Well-Known Member
Yes it does and I am not arguing with that. For someone who used to work in racing and see and hear a lot of things I have nothing but admiration for trainers, jockeys and stable staff. But I feel more should be done for ex racers and to keep tabs. There is a lot going on in the industry that the powers that be probably know about but do nothing about it. I cannot say anymore, but I just know believe me.
The coloured cobs are already on a boat to no where. You only have to see what turns up at some of the lower end auctions to see that.
A reduction in breeding across the board is what is needed. Stop breeding chaff!
My mare may have okish breeding on paper and was put to useful stallions but what she produced was chaff to be honest. Of those that lived one won a low grade race and a seller and the other had a couple of runs in bumpers and showed nothing.
There are many horses just like her being bred from day in day out and producing mediocre horses at best.
The same is true in the whole horse industry. Breeding from mares that are too old or from mares and stallions with faults or bad conformation. I am not discussing good breeders here but the chaff that is produced that floods the market.
Fantasy_World
Well-Known Member
Well I am not an oldie Echo Bravo, but what I do have is common sense. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that with a lot of horses they need time and not to be rushed as all that ever results in is problems. The dealers that do this don't care as they are not there to pick up the pieces. The horse gets sold on and sold on and sold on. No wonder so many horses get wrecked and people have their confidence knocked. However there are also those who over exaggerate their own abilities and over horse themselves which is a lose lose situation.
I understand there is wastage and will always be wastage as there are not enough homes to go around. However anything we can do to lessen those numbers has got to be a move in the right direction no matter what the equine discipline the horses have come from or been bred for.
I also agree with you about the kids too. They should raise the age for sex, driving and drinking too. Too many people are able to wreck too many lives at a young age. You can drive a car and kill someone at 17 and yet can't vote or have a bet in the Grand National until you are 18!
However having children is a learning curve and even someone who comes from excellent stock, has a lot of wealth, good jobs and a fancy house is no better at being a parent than your average single parent living in a council house.
There is a wealth of help available to parents or would be parents via support groups, parenting groups, midwives, health visitors etc.
What practical support is there for your average horse owner besides a few horse care courses scattered around the country or BHS stages?
True you can read books, articles and pages on the internet but nothing prepares you for 'real' horse care until that grass breathing animal is pottering around in the stable in front of you or cantering around its field. That is when the true test begins.
I do believe that many novice owners feel intimidated to ask for help from fellow liveries for example. I have seen it myself. People with not that much experience asking for help or someone telling them how it should be done and then being laughed about or talked about behind their backs. It is not on! We all had to start somewhere, even Priscilla with her 8 show ponies!
Perhaps more own a pony days should be available at riding schools.
That is how I learned some of my skills such as grooming, mucking out, tacking up etc, the riding came with having been around and riding horses for 23 years before I had my horses.
I have learned a great deal since owning horses for what is now 6 years, but I have never been afraid to ask for help, but some people are.
There is never a clear black and white rule of how a horse should be kept, trained or ridden in my opinion. The only wrong doings in my view is if a horse is kept underweight/overweight, doesn't have its feet seen to properly or often enough, ridden when lame ( without pain relief or not been directed to by vet) unsuitable or ill fitting tack, not been groomed enough so that the horse gets girth galls etc, using dirty tack etc which is causing skin issues in the horse, riding a horse which you are clearly too heavy/big for and others.
But I do think some horse owners lack clear common sense, even ones who should know better or portray a persona that they know a lot more than they actually do.
Some of the things I have seen over the years
There has to be something, anything in place to stop pure numpties from caring for horses.
If by making a course compulsary to gain a certificate/licence to care for/own a horse helps these people then it will get a big thumbs up from me
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shelbie
Active Member
TRISTAR, thank you, to you and to those who have spoken out on the horses behalf .You have restored my faith in human nature.
Over2You
Well-Known Member
Countless horses have collapsed and died either before or after crossing the finishing line. Don't even try to say otherwise!!
Over2You
Well-Known Member
Horses die a damned site more often because of racing!!
Over2You
Well-Known Member
Over2You
Well-Known Member
People, the only way you can get a poster like shelbie to make any sense, is to send her to work in a racing yard for like a fortnight or something, and so she/he can see first hand what really happens, what its really like etc. I think it would do he/she a lot of good, and help her/him make a valid arguement instead of spouting a uneducated opinion plucked from thin air. I think it would do a lot of people a lot of good and help people see what racing is really like. Poor trainers having to put with someone like that though!
Seriously though....
People who work with racehorse- There are a lot easier ways to make a lot more money than working with horses, in racing, or any other equestrian sport. The trainer, jockeys and stable staff deffo aren't there for the money only. They are there because they want to work with horses
There might very well be people in racing who love horses, but I still (even after reading Little Squirrels post) cannot fathom how anyone would want to put their much loved animals at such high risk. Yes, there are some murky goings on in other horse sports, but some of them have at least made big safety modifications. In eventing, they have removed the steeple chasing, roads and tracks phases. Plus more and more fences are being built with frangible pins. In show jumping, the poles are lightweight and roll away easily thanks to the much flatter cups. You can say what you like, but there are far fewer deaths in every other horse sport. I am simply unwilling to accept that whatever good comes out of racing can outweigh the tremendous strain that horses are put under. Not to mention all the horses who have died.
Elf On A Shelf
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It's their job! Soldiers get sent to war, they die. It's not nice, it's heartbreaking but IT'S THEIR JOB!
Alec Swan
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I suppose that this argument eventually renders down to the point where there are those who want to change the world, and those who don't want to be changed.
Those who would claim to act in a charitable or ethical manner, seem to hold the moral high ground, simply through their statement. A statement whereby they claim to stand against injustice, immorality, or cruelty. The reality is that, though not always, those who act for the welfare camp haven't actually the faintest idea what they're talking about, and steadfastly refuse to accept compromise, or the fact that the questions regarding welfare are being dealt with .
Consider the new whip regulations in racing, if you will. New regulations have come about because of the bigoted and ignorant views of those with no experience, but who would claim to act on behalf of race horses. As with the hunting ban, we are constantly told that it's what the public want. Well that's a surprise, isn't it, considering the biased and distorted facts which have been fed to them? The same can be said for the proposed badger cull, and now I understand, the Welsh Assembly, through pressure brought about by those who are so ill informed as to be ignorant, have now cancelled their plans. All brought about by the ill-equipped and ill-informed, good old Joe Public.
Alec.
Those who would claim to act in a charitable or ethical manner, seem to hold the moral high ground, simply through their statement. A statement whereby they claim to stand against injustice, immorality, or cruelty. The reality is that, though not always, those who act for the welfare camp haven't actually the faintest idea what they're talking about, and steadfastly refuse to accept compromise, or the fact that the questions regarding welfare are being dealt with .
Consider the new whip regulations in racing, if you will. New regulations have come about because of the bigoted and ignorant views of those with no experience, but who would claim to act on behalf of race horses. As with the hunting ban, we are constantly told that it's what the public want. Well that's a surprise, isn't it, considering the biased and distorted facts which have been fed to them? The same can be said for the proposed badger cull, and now I understand, the Welsh Assembly, through pressure brought about by those who are so ill informed as to be ignorant, have now cancelled their plans. All brought about by the ill-equipped and ill-informed, good old Joe Public.
Alec.
Over2You
Well-Known Member
You really must be grasping at straws to make such a ridiculous analogy. People enlist knowing they will be putting their lives on the line. Horses do not have a clue as to what could easily happen to them. It is an absolute disgrace that people still (in this day and age) get pleasure from watching a 'sport' in which animals regularly die. The majority of race goers only have one thing on their minds, and that is money! Horses suffer catastrophic injuries, yet the crowds continue to cheer, not giving a flying fig about the downed horses. It is sickening! Racing commentators hardly ever comment on the stricken horses either. I watched a replay of the race when Harry Handsome broke his leg. Not a single mention of the tragic sight he had just witnessed. Carried on commentating as if nothing had happened. The BBCs commentators were beyond reproach when they referred to the bodies on Ornais and Dooneys Gate as obstacles. When Hickstead collapsed in Verona, Peter Churchill was clearly overcome with emotion. Saying for goodness sake, dont show us it again when a replay of his collapse was shown. There was also a great deal of compassion shown when G G Barock died at Hickstead. When Sir Arkay died at HOYS in 92, the fence at which he fell was removed immediately. It was not left, so that more horses could die while attempting to jump it. Click here for an article regarding the tragedy. No such modifications are made in racing! As for the new whip rules that were brought in months ago. My only guess is that jockeys were so worried about there being serious repercussions if they whipped their mounts over the finishing line, that they threw a tantrum about it, and the spineless BHA gave into them by relaxing the rules again. Do not tell me that racing is improving horse welfare. It clearly is not as horses are still suffering horrendous injuries and dying in their masses!
Over2You
Well-Known Member
How dare you say that people who actually care about animal welfare are "bigoted" and "ignorant". I do hope that you are reincarnated as a racehorse or fox. Then, you will know what it is like to be ripped apart by hounds or to suffer a fatal fall in front of thousands of people who could not care less about your injuries.
I have spent years researching racing and have yet to find a single aspect that I can admire and praise.
As for the most recent rule changes regarding whips. They are a joke!
Mrs B
Well-Known Member
If you were less anthropomorphic about animals, you might have a more balanced, credible view point and be taken more seriously.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I have to agree with Alec on this point. I'm a huge welfare advocate (some might disagree). But my knowledge is limited, and my viewpoint pretty rigid. I would say that makes me bigoted and ignorant, along with a lot of other people.
I don't believe you've spent years researching racing. If you had your arguments would be more robust, less anthropomorphic and far more accurate.
AmyMay
Situation normal
And of course, we know that's not true......
Dobiegirl
Well-Known Member
The number of horses that die on the racecourse is a drop in the ocean compared to the horses that die in transit from Russia,Poland,Romania etc on their way to the slaughterhouse. Travelling for days with no food,water or rest is an absolute scandal so why dont I see Animal Aid doing their utmost to put an end to this evil trade? They would rather go for a soft target like racehorses which they see as belonging to the elite of society.
Alec Swan
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Well there we are. We have at least one thing in common, because such an outcome would suit me very well!
I'm grateful for your good wishes.
Alec.
dominobrown
Well-Known Member
Well said, I believe that there is nothing wrong with death necessarily, it is a part of life, however it should be humane. When alive we should give the horse, or any animal the best possible life. The transport across Europe is unecessary in my eye. I would rather have a horse die on the racecourse compared to that.
Nobody chooses death, horses don't, but they can also choose not to race. Do you think a wild horse chooses to get eaten by lion/ wolf or whatever?
Elf On A Shelf
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Over2You
Do you have ANY IDEA just how absolutely gutted and devistated the connections of Handsome Harry are?!?! And yes! They still are gutted! He was one of the yards pride and joys! Rose works bloody hard for each and every one of her horses and to lose one hits them all very hard indeed!
No the commentators don't mention fatal falls AT THE TIME as in the split second they are viewing the race they don't know if it is merely winded or not. I happened to be at Sedgefield that day and about 15-20mins after the race an announcement was made over the tannoy to say that unfortunately Handsome Harry had an injury and had to be put down. The snipets you see on Racing Post and AtTheRaces really don't give you the full picture and if you expect an announcement mid-race or immediately after you are sadly very much mistaken. The horse has to be pronounced dead by the vets and certified. Then taken into the main building and that's before it get's anywhere near the commentators.
If you had done all of this research into racing that you claim you have then you would have known this!
Over2You - I assume you follow eventing for that name - I actually can not believe how short sighted you are. You refuse to listen to reason and explanation because in your own head you are clearly right, always right, nothing will change that and everyone else is wrong - even when they know a damned sight more than you! So do us a fabour and put a cork in it! And trust me! That is really bloomin' polite considering what I would rather say - yup! You guessed it - stablestaff gutter talk
Do you have ANY IDEA just how absolutely gutted and devistated the connections of Handsome Harry are?!?! And yes! They still are gutted! He was one of the yards pride and joys! Rose works bloody hard for each and every one of her horses and to lose one hits them all very hard indeed!
No the commentators don't mention fatal falls AT THE TIME as in the split second they are viewing the race they don't know if it is merely winded or not. I happened to be at Sedgefield that day and about 15-20mins after the race an announcement was made over the tannoy to say that unfortunately Handsome Harry had an injury and had to be put down. The snipets you see on Racing Post and AtTheRaces really don't give you the full picture and if you expect an announcement mid-race or immediately after you are sadly very much mistaken. The horse has to be pronounced dead by the vets and certified. Then taken into the main building and that's before it get's anywhere near the commentators.
If you had done all of this research into racing that you claim you have then you would have known this!
Over2You - I assume you follow eventing for that name - I actually can not believe how short sighted you are. You refuse to listen to reason and explanation because in your own head you are clearly right, always right, nothing will change that and everyone else is wrong - even when they know a damned sight more than you! So do us a fabour and put a cork in it! And trust me! That is really bloomin' polite considering what I would rather say - yup! You guessed it - stablestaff gutter talk