20% of people don't like horse sport...

[stormox]

Reading a recent Horse and Hound story, it said we should be concerned as 20% of people don't like sport involving horses.
I don't like boxing or cricket so I don't watch either. No one is forcing them to watch horse sports, there's plenty of other sport on.
I really don't understand why it's been made into such a big problem.

 

[AmyMay]

The key word I suspect involving.

 

[TGM]

My understanding was that 20% didn't support the use of horses in sport, which is different, IMO, to them just not liking horse sport.

According to the article, key findings were:

• 40% only supported the continued involvement of horses in sport if their welfare is improved,
• 60% said there should be more safety and welfare measures in place in horse sports.
• 16% felt their confidence in protection of horse welfare in sport had been affected negatively over the past two to three years in response to media coverage.
• 52% felt horse welfare should be prioritised more in communications.
• 20% did not support the continued involvement of horses in sport under any circumstances.

So, yes, personally I do find that quite concerning for the future of equestrian sport.

 

[paddi22]

I thought the 20% would actually be higher - mainly because a large proportion of people think it's elitist and for toffs and then also a good chunk of animal welfare people are against it as well.

 

[RachelFerd]

It is a big problem - we don't operate in a silo. Horse sport only functions when social license is functioning. If all your colleagues at work thought you were an awful person for participating in horse sport, would it make you think twice?

Its why we need governing bodies under the BEF to come together and plan and prepare for the future on this - not turn a blind eye.

 

[canteron]

Racing is the most visible horse sport - and I can understand it putting people off.

The Tesco meat scandal when their lasagne turned out to be mainly race horse and those poor horses had been shipped abroad was the worst imaginable PR for horse sport …. and while they may have forgotten the specifics it will have left a bad impression.

Ps I do know there are very honourable racing yards!!

 

[reynold]

Most people in the street when asked about horse sport would think racing unless they or their friends/family were involved in or have knowledge of non-racing horse sport.

IMO the racing in this country, Ireland and France plus Germany is well organised in regard to horse welfare. I would not say the same about the USA where a lot more drugs and whip use is permitted.

 

[ycbm]

Reading a recent Horse and Hound story, it said we should be concerned as 20% of people don't like sport involving horses.
I don't like boxing or cricket so I don't watch either. No one is forcing them to watch horse sports, there's plenty of other sport on.
I really don't understand why it's been made into such a big problem.

It's a big problem because horse sport uses a living creature who cannot consent to do things which endanger the health and sometimes the life of the horse.

It's not the same as not wanting to watch consenting adults bashing seven bells out of each other in a boxing ring, or being bored by watching cricket.
.

 

[AntiPuck]

I thought the 20% would actually be higher - mainly because a large proportion of people think it's elitist and for toffs and then also a good chunk of animal welfare people are against it as well.

The BHS have started a campaign that seems aimed at changing that 'for toffs' perception, pretty interesting attempt

 

[windswoo]

Agree with YCBM.
Also if a motor racing driver dies hitting a wall in a formula 1 car or the deaths at the TT this year - yes people would be upset for the people involved but the sport carries on.
A horse dies either during a race or over cross country and it gets far more bad publicity.
Horse sport has had some very bad publicity over the last 12 months including the pentathlon at the Olympics and the trainer sitting on the dead horse - it does nothing for the none horsey persons perception of horse sport.
That with the whole issue of horse and rider safety on roads and riding in general there could be a real threat to even being able to own horses just because a more vocal type of person doesn't approve.
it is a big problem and something that all the horse organisations and horse owners need to be aware of.

 

[Fieldlife]

The BHS have started a campaign that seems aimed at changing that 'for toffs' perception, pretty interesting attempt

that seems a good advert.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Racing is the most visible horse sport - and I can understand it putting people off.

The Tesco meat scandal when their lasagne turned out to be mainly race horse and those poor horses had been shipped abroad was the worst imaginable PR for horse sport …. and while they may have forgotten the specifics it will have left a bad impression.

Ps I do know there are very honourable racing yards!!

Um how exactly did you come to the conclusion that most of the horse meat found in the Tesco stuff was racehorse? Did they dna it right down to the very last fibre and could tell if it had raced or not? A LOT more equines than racehorses go into the slaughter market. There were the Welsh Pony foals a few years ago that caused a ruckus, 3 or 4 colt foals that they couldnt sell they took to slaughter whilst animal rights activists were there. A lot of people condemned them and said they would have taken the ponies on - well where were these people when they were for sale? No where to be seen. A lot of shetland ponies go for meat from the sales as do the Welsh, dartmoor Hill and coloured cob population. Then you have the ones the dealers can't get rid of so they go to slaughter. Did they separate out all of the dna so you knew what kind of equine you were eating? I highly doubt it.

 

[Fieldlife]

Um how exactly did you come to the conclusion that most of the horse meat found in the Tesco stuff was racehorse? Did they dna it right down to the very last fibre and could tell if it had raced or not? A LOT more equines than racehorses go into the slaughter market. There were the Welsh Pony foals a few years ago that caused a ruckus, 3 or 4 colt foals that they couldnt sell they took to slaughter whilst animal rights activists were there. A lot of people condemned them and said they would have taken the ponies on - well where were these people when they were for sale? No where to be seen. A lot of shetland ponies go for meat from the sales as do the Welsh, dartmoor Hill and coloured cob population. Then you have the ones the dealers can't get rid of so they go to slaughter. Did they separate out all of the dna so you knew what kind of equine you were eating? I highly doubt it.

I dont remember any more details than it was horse meat when it shouldnt have been. I dont think what type of horse, or where horses had come from was established. I dont think that scandal was particularly detrimental to the riding of horses in the public's perspective.

 

[ycbm]

there could be a real threat to even being able to own horses just because a more vocal type of person doesn't approve

I agree. It's not just the more vocal person though. I know because of what I've written on other threads that I'm one of an increasing band of horse owners and regular riders who is becoming less certain every day about the ethics of world class horse sport. None of us are out campaigning about it ..... yet, and banning it at the top will be where a total ban starts.
.

 

[Fieldlife]

I agree. It's not just the more vocal person though. I know because of what I've written on other threads that I'm one of an increasing band of horse owners and regular riders who is becoming less certain every day about the ethics of world class horse sport. None of us are out campaigning about it ..... yet, and banning it at the top will be where a total ban starts.
.

World class horse sport is one thing, and I am very uncomfortable with the endurance ethics etc. The perception of the man in the street, the people we meet out hacking, my work colleagues etc. about personal riding horses is still very different IMO.

 

[scruffyponies]

The Tesco meat scandal when their lasagne turned out to be mainly race horse

The Tesco horse meat was almost directly a result of the banning of horses from the roads in Romania. Overnight, every farm and family horse in the country was out of a job. Blame the ambition of Romanian politicians, who were desperate to make their country look more 'modern' so that they could take a seat aboard the EU the gravy train.

The rest was just poor regulation and good business.

 

[eahotson]

I agree. It's not just the more vocal person though. I know because of what I've written on other threads that I'm one of an increasing band of horse owners and regular riders who is becoming less certain every day about the ethics of world class horse sport. None of us are out campaigning about it ..... yet, and banning it at the top will be where a total ban starts.
.

Thank you.

 

[Juniper Jack]

It is a big problem - we don't operate in a silo. Horse sport only functions when social license is functioning. If all your colleagues at work thought you were an awful person for participating in horse sport, would it make you think twice?

.

No, because I would know they were wrong. I have never been one to bow to peer pressure.

 

[Keith_Beef]

Um how exactly did you come to the conclusion that most of the horse meat found in the Tesco stuff was racehorse? Did they dna it right down to the very last fibre and could tell if it had raced or not? A LOT more equines than racehorses go into the slaughter market. There were the Welsh Pony foals a few years ago that caused a ruckus, 3 or 4 colt foals that they couldnt sell they took to slaughter whilst animal rights activists were there. A lot of people condemned them and said they would have taken the ponies on - well where were these people when they were for sale? No where to be seen. A lot of shetland ponies go for meat from the sales as do the Welsh, dartmoor Hill and coloured cob population. Then you have the ones the dealers can't get rid of so they go to slaughter. Did they separate out all of the dna so you knew what kind of equine you were eating? I highly doubt it.

Long version, in an article in the Grauniad.

Short version

Tesco lasagna (and other ready-meals containing "beef" for a number of brands in 16 countries throughout Europe) was supplied by French company Comigel.
Comigel subcontracted the production to the Tavola factory, in Luxembourg; the meat was supplied by French company Spanghero.
Spanghero bought the meat from a Cypress-registered company "Draap". The owner of Draap is Dutchman Jan Fasen who already has convictions for supplying fraudulently labelled meat. Oh, look, put those letters in the opposite order and you get "paard", Dutch for "horse"!
Draap bought the horse meat from Romania.

From reports I remember at the time, the original source of the animals was Romania. The government changed the rules about using horse-drawn carts on the road, making it illegal to use them on the busier roads and in towns and cities. Supposedly loads of small farmers were still using horse-drawn carts to get their produce to markets; no longer able to do that, they bought small vans.

The version I remember was that dealers were buying up these horses, shipping them over the border to Poland with false passports showing that they had been raised for meat for human consumption.

The Grauniad and another article claim that the abattoirs were in Romania, and that government officials started to round up abandoned hoses in Romania and send them for slaughter.

The article in the Grauniad mentions

The French government said Spanghero was the first agent to stamp the horse as beef; Spanghero has denied doing so deliberately. Fasen says Spanghero and French manufacturers were in on the deception from the beginning.

 

[Juniper Jack]

But are all thse "vocal preople" really all that vocal? Or are they just posting all over the Internet because it exists and they can? Would they be heard if the Internet did not exis?
I know we have to live with what is, and the Internet exists and probably isn't gonna go away in our lifetime, but considering horse people around the world, how big a percentage is that? And how big a percentage of the rest of the people in the world is the number of vocal horse-sport protesters?
I don't see horse sport going away, not across the world. There's too much money in it, from the little guy betting on a TV race to the millions spent on breeding and racing the horses the ordinary people bet on. And to misquote Shakespeare, the rich they get richer every day.

 

[canteron]

Um how exactly did you come to the conclusion that most of the horse meat found in the Tesco stuff was racehorse? Did they dna it right down to the very last fibre and could tell if it had raced or ….

No of course they didn’t, and I know that they were only a small %age, but racehorses being part of it (some even had racing plates on apparently) made for good newspaper headlines and focus.

I think that the steps the racehorse industry have taken to give ex-racehorses a good life is commendable - but they needed to do this.

Can’t find all the articles but from a quick glance an extract from the Guardian shows racing was blamed whether fairly or not.

 

[eahotson]

But are all thse "vocal preople" really all that vocal? Or are they just posting all over the Internet because it exists and they can? Would they be heard if the Internet did not exis?
I know we have to live with what is, and the Internet exists and probably isn't gonna go away in our lifetime, but considering horse people around the world, how big a percentage is that? And how big a percentage of the rest of the people in the world is the number of vocal horse-sport protesters?
I don't see horse sport going away, not across the world. There's too much money in it, from the little guy betting on a TV race to the millions spent on breeding and racing the horses the ordinary people bet on. And to misquote Shakespeare, the rich they get richer every day.

The money is one of the big problems. Suppose you want to be an international dressage rider.You need several really top class horses, which are expensive.You need to ride/train them very regularly which takes a fair amount of time.You need transport and you need to be out at competitions regularly and winning regularly to catch the selectors eye.For most people that means getting owners willing to buy and keep horses for you.You will also need sponsorship. To get and keep this you need to be very successful so very often that means that you have to do what it takes and what it takes can sometimes be quite unpleasant.

 

[eahotson]

I read that post and was shocked at the level of aggression by some responders.If they struggle to contain their anger on the internet how do they contain their anger with their horses?
That apart I think that the book "I Can't Bear To Watch Anymore" which is very well researched and backed up by plenty of evidence has rattled a few cages.A copy of this was sent to every IOC member.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

No of course they didn’t, and I know that they were only a small %age, but racehorses being part of it (some even had racing plates on apparently) made for good newspaper headlines and focus.

I think that the steps the racehorse industry have taken to give ex-racehorses a good life is commendable - but they needed to do this.

Can’t find all the articles but from a quick glance an extract from the Guardian shows racing was blamed whether fairly or not.
View attachment 94678

So you jumped on the band wagon and blamed racing too! You do realise you can put racing plates onto ANY horse? They are not exclusively for racehorses? One of my Shetlands wore them. A lot of show horses wear them as they are very light. And actually a lot of racehorses wear lightweight steel shoes not aluminium plates as they last longer. Apart from that were shoes found in the lasagnas and burgers!? NO. Racing has been finding its horses good homes for decades. Like with anything in the world there is the good and the bad but you only ever hear of the bad, or you only ever focus on the bad no matter how small that fraction may be.

 

[canteron]

So you jumped on the band wagon and blamed racing too! You do realise you can put racing plates onto ANY horse? They are not exclusively for racehorses? One of my Shetlands wore them. A lot of show horses wear them as they are very light. And actually a lot of racehorses wear lightweight steel shoes not aluminium plates as they last longer. Apart from that were shoes found in the lasagnas and burgers!? NO. Racing has been finding its horses good homes for decades. Like with anything in the world there is the good and the bad but you only ever hear of the bad, or you only ever focus on the bad no matter how small that fraction may be.

At no point have I “jumped on the bandwagon” if you actually read the whole post, I just pointed out racing PR is (like many sports) shit and the press is lazy and racing took a hit because of it.

I know a lot of “elite” from your industry and know they are probably better at discussing the merits of buying wine en primeur than why they should deal with ethics/perception.

They let the grassroots down imo.

 

[Leandy]

The consent point is a red herring in my view. Discussion centering around consent is never going to be helpful. No the horse doesn't fully "consent" to the risks of its participation in sport because it doesn't have the capacity to consent fully in the human sense. Even for humans we don't consider that children or certain people with more limited mental capacity have the ability to properly consent to many things and rely on consent from parents or guardians acting in their best interests rather than from them. I prefer to think of our relationship with horses as more employer/employee. The horse works and in return we provide it with what it needs to live its life. Some horses are well paid and others are not, just like in the human world.

If you must talk about consent, I think the real question the horse needs to be asked is would you rather exist as a horse participating in sports and likely be relatively well cared for with an interesting life (whether it is long or short) where your material needs are by and large met but you are constrained from being able to do everything you want when you want it and have to do some work in return or would you rather not have a chance of life at all? Because that is what really the horse would be consenting to. The idea that if the use of horses for sport was curtailed there would be lots of horses enjoying a lovely natural life doing just what they please and somehow being fed and cared for is a notion held only by those who seem not to have thought things through properly at all! If you love horses then you need to support use of them in sport otherwise they will simply not exist. A world without the vast majority of horses in it would be a much diminished place in my view.

Hell, I can't have an idyllic life lolling around doing what I want all day and not giving anything in return in life, so I really don't see why we think horses would be able to manage it and to continue to exist!

So yes, the statistic is a little frightening and, like all these things, we need more balanced education of the general public on the main issues and less air time and credence given to the edge case views of the extremists and crack pots. Sadly modern media, and social media in particular, seems to be becoming the realm of edge cases and extremists at the expense of balanced representation of issues and views.

 

[eahotson]

The consent point is a red herring in my view. Discussion centering around consent is never going to be helpful. No the horse doesn't fully "consent" to the risks of its participation in sport because it doesn't have the capacity to consent fully in the human sense. Even for humans we don't consider that children or certain people with more limited mental capacity have the ability to properly consent to many things and rely on consent from parents or guardians acting in their best interests rather than from them. I prefer to think of our relationship with horses as more employer/employee. The horse works and in return we provide it with what it needs to live its life. Some horses are well paid and others are not, just like in the human world.

If you must talk about consent, I think the real question the horse needs to be asked is would you rather exist as a horse participating in sports and likely be relatively well cared for with an interesting life (whether it is long or short) where your material needs are by and large met but you are constrained from being able to do everything you want when you want it and have to do some work in return or would you rather not have a chance of life at all? Because that is what really the horse would be consenting to. The idea that if the use of horses for sport was curtailed there would be lots of horses enjoying a lovely natural life doing just what they please and somehow being fed and cared for is a notion held only by those who seem not to have thought things through properly at all! If you love horses then you need to support use of them in sport otherwise they will simply not exist. A world without the vast majority of horses in it would be a much diminished place in my view.

Hell, I can't have an idyllic life lolling around doing what I want all day and not giving anything in return in life, so I really don't see why we think horses would be able to manage it and to continue to exist!

So yes, the statistic is a little frightening and, like all these things, we need more balanced education of the general public on the main issues and less air time and credence given to the edge case views of the extremists and crack pots. Sadly modern media, and social media in particular, seems to be becoming the realm of edge cases and extremists at the expense of balanced representation of issues and views.

I don't think most of us have a problem with asking a horse to do some work in return for its living.There is a big problem with high level sport though as the work can involve a fair amount of abuse.Sadly.

 

[Leandy]

I don't think most of us have a problem with asking a horse to do some work in return for its living.There is a big problem with high level sport though as the work can involve a fair amount of abuse.Sadly.

But largely doesn't from my observation. So those who push that argument really are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[AntiPuck]

The consent point is a red herring in my view. Discussion centering around consent is never going to be helpful. No the horse doesn't fully "consent" to the risks of its participation in sport because it doesn't have the capacity to consent fully in the human sense. Even for humans we don't consider that children or certain people with more limited mental capacity have the ability to properly consent to many things and rely on consent from parents or guardians acting in their best interests rather than from them. I prefer to think of our relationship with horses as more employer/employee. The horse works and in return we provide it with what it needs to live its life. Some horses are well paid and others are not, just like in the human world.

If you must talk about consent, I think the real question the horse needs to be asked is would you rather exist as a horse participating in sports and likely be relatively well cared for with an interesting life (whether it is long or short) where your material needs are by and large met but you are constrained from being able to do everything you want when you want it and have to do some work in return or would you rather not have a chance of life at all? Because that is what really the horse would be consenting to. The idea that if the use of horses for sport was curtailed there would be lots of horses enjoying a lovely natural life doing just what they please and somehow being fed and cared for is a notion held only by those who seem not to have thought things through properly at all! If you love horses then you need to support use of them in sport otherwise they will simply not exist. A world without the vast majority of horses in it would be a much diminished place in my view.

Hell, I can't have an idyllic life lolling around doing what I want all day and not giving anything in return in life, so I really don't see why we think horses would be able to manage it and to continue to exist!

So yes, the statistic is a little frightening and, like all these things, we need more balanced education of the general public on the main issues and less air time and credence given to the edge case views of the extremists and crack pots. Sadly modern media, and social media in particular, seems to be becoming the realm of edge cases and extremists at the expense of balanced representation of issues and views.

I don't think that this "existence or not" argument is a good one either, really - beings that don't exist don't suffer, so arguably if the choice is between a life that potentially involves suffering (at the hands of humans) or non-existence (in which no thing ever suffers), surely non-existence is the better option (You only have to ask someone if they'd endure 5 mins of the world's worst suffering for 5 mins of it's most intense pleasure to see which is valued more highly - the avoidance of suffering, or the experience of pleasure). The world would only be diminished, if horses were far fewer in number, for the humans, not for the non-existent horses.

I agree that the 'employer-employee' type relationship is probably the best we could strive for with horses as humans, in our current model of the world- but in reality the horses aren't really employees, more like indentured servants.

 

[Leandy]

I don't think that this "existence or not" argument is a good one either, really - beings that don't exist don't suffer, so arguably if the choice is between a life that potentially involves suffering (at the hands of humans) or non-existence (in which no thing ever suffers), surely non-existence is the better option (You only have to ask someone if they'd endure 5 mins of the world's worst suffering for 5 mins of it's most intense pleasure to see which is valued more highly - the avoidance of suffering, or the experience of pleasure). The world would only be diminished, if horses were far fewer in number, for the humans, not for the non-existent horses.

This is talking in extremes though. That isn't what existence looks like for almost any horse. If we really thought that non-existence was better than a bit of suffering on occasion for some living things, surely we should be pushing for the eradication of all people too? Pretty sure most people alive would not agree with that stance because the joys and benefits of life for those living it look pretty good. Look how hard living things try to hang on to life. Once we have it we tend to be quite attached to it if faced with the alternative.

I agree that the 'employer-employee' type relationship is probably the best we could strive for with horses as humans, in our current model of the world- but in reality the horses aren't really employees, more like indentured servants.

Not quite, that assumes pretty equal mental capacity and capability to stand on their own two (four) feet. If I didn't look after my horses and just opened the gate and let them do what they want, they would likely end up straying and unless I kept finding them and bringing them back, they would end up in a pretty sorry state, if not dead from starvation or being hit by a truck. We look after horses because they do not have the capability to do this for themselves in the modern world and it is in their interests for us to do so, otherwise I would save myself time and effort by paying my horses a wage every week of a pile of feed, hay, bedding etc and saying go and look after yourself and come back in the morning for some training.... So indentured servant they may be, but that is the right thing to do in the circumstances, not the abusive one.