Eventing 3 horse deaths at Blenheim HT, have courses become too technical? Are horses not prepared enough?

[sbloom]

But we probably hack millions of miles every year collectively, as someone said above, it's about context and ratios. If 5% horses didn't come back from hacks...80 horses will be a much lower proportion than eventing, racing....

 

[RachelFerd]

But we probably hack millions of miles every year collectively, as someone said above, it's about context and ratios. If 5% horses didn't come back from hacks...80 horses will be a much lower proportion than eventing, racing....

Except the stats for eventing horse falls are usually much lower than that (I did post them higher up this conversation) - Blenheim seems to have been struck by a weird level of bad luck. On the same way that one yard might get impacted by a series of road deaths - and maybe there is a reason (poor road marking? Wrong speed limit?) Or maybe there isn't, and it's just horrible chance. What doesn't change is that it is personal human choice that puts the horse in the dangerous situation.

And then, what's the end point when we make a series of decisions to limit risk, does it end with a horse bored out of it's mind in a field with insufficient mental stimulation??

 

[teapot]

And then, what's the end point when we make a series of decisions to limit risk, does it end with a horse bored out of it's mind in a field with insufficient mental stimulation??

Does the industry, as a whole, need to more to educate the wider world in this point?

I’m just thinking out loud here as everything falls back to the fact the sport will change because of the influence of those who know less than they should/want to do about it.

 

[ycbm]

And then, what's the end point when we make a series of decisions to limit risk, does it end with a horse bored out of it's mind in a field with insufficient mental stimulation??

Well it might. But only if the owner only values the horse if it can go eventing for them......

 

[oldie48]

I have a very pragmatic view. I am, of course, very sad that two horses died as a result of a XC fall and if those falls were a result of rider abuse, then I would support measures to punish those riders. If they were as a result of a horse or rider error, then I'm afraid that is the price that riders, owners and anyone connected to eventing including spectators have to accept. It is a dangerous sport, riding is a dangerous sport, horses are potentially dangerous animals both in terms of endangering themselves and their rider or handler. A specialist equine vet has more injuries and deaths during the course of his/her work than any other professional, farriers often have injuries as do dentists. Yes all these people have a choice and horses do not but having known a number of eventers over the years, they have plenty of ways of letting you know if they don't want to compete.
In 2003 a young woman who was helping my daughter with her youngster took her horse to a Novice event. She'd hunted him all winter, was a very experienced rider and was well respected for her skill. Her horse had a rotational fall at an innocuous log fence, she was crushed and died on course. The horse made a mistake, a friend was spectating and saw it happen. I absolutely know that the rider understood the risks as did her family (made very clear at her funeral) and there is no way she would have wanted the sport stopped. The horse walked away unhurt. I sold a horse that was school sour to a lovely hacking home where he blossomed until he went into the field one day and broke his leg. Sh!t happens!
Horses and riders have serious accidents every day doing quite ordinary things and there are many more horses and ponies living miserable existences and dying prematurely because the are allowed to get too fat than those who die going cross country, neither is right but if I were given the choice I'd rather be a top class event horse than a laminitic pony.

 

[sakura]

Again, it doesn’t really matter what we all think because the future of elite horse sports will almost certainly come down to public opinion. The public doesn’t care if statistically more horses die on the road. A lot of non horse folk would only argue that they shouldn’t be there anyway, so I’m not sure how strong a point that is to them.

People don’t want to see horses dying. The only reason eventing is not having to address this on a much larger platform is because it hasn’t gone viral (yet).

 

[Chianti]

I don't think this is true of the vast majority of top level riders which is where the majority of equine deaths take place. Mollie Summerland was severely (and rightly so!) criticised at Badminton at the water. She then went home, reflected on what went wrong, and put it right (the horse happily jumped a similar question later on). This reflection needs to be done by the rider, and I'm not really sure you could or should publicise that. I don't believe riders that have incidents where their horses die, don't look at what they could have done better.

The course designer does reflect on their courses when they look at the statistics for completion, faults, Mims pins etc.

I think the sport has sensible precautions in place, and for me, can only really do 3 things as a sport to improve safety. One, more closely defining MERs (soft/hard tracks to be qualified in some way, I'm not qualified to begin to do that). Two, tracking performance on course (riders should be pulled up sooner and more often). Three, the FEI dangerous riding policies should be expanded and used for more impact.

They may reflect but they'll still go out the next week and take part in a sport that may mean they don't bring the horse home. It is fundamentally risky for horses to be allowed to jump fixed objects. You can review that as much as like. I just wish people who event would be honest and say they know there is such a risk involved.

 

[Chianti]

Correct - which is why I don't take my horse out on the roads at the moment. I have had to semi retire her as a result (I don't have much off road hacking or an arena). I'm not saying this to insinuate anything, just adding background to my comment. I don't think horses dying on the road or in sport is an acceptable level of risk for me to take.

You sound as if you're in a similar situation to me. My pony went to a new livery yard last year to recover for a series of illnesses. He's now better but I refuse to ride him on the busy roads next to the yard. I've known someone killed riding on the road and it completely changes how you view the risk.

 

[oldie48]

Again, it doesn’t really matter what we all think because the future of elite horse sports will almost certainly come down to public opinion. The public doesn’t care if statistically more horses die on the road. A lot of non horse folk would only argue that they shouldn’t be there anyway, so I’m not sure how strong a point that is to them.

People don’t want to see horses dying. The only reason eventing is not having to address this on a much larger platform is because it hasn’t gone viral (yet).

Perhaps but I have no intention of doing the work for them.

 

[Upthecreek]

They may reflect but they'll still go out the next week and take part in a sport that may mean they don't bring the horse home. It is fundamentally risky for horses to be allowed to jump fixed objects. You can review that as much as like. I just wish people who event would be honest and say they know there is such a risk involved.

Nobody is saying there is no risk involved. The people I know who event and the people commenting on this thread all acknowledge that eventing is a dangerous sport which carries a serious risk of injury or death to both horses and riders. People choosing to participate does not mean they are not acknowledging the risks.

We all calculate risks in everything we do every day. The question is whether it is ethical or socially acceptable to choose to put the life of an animal at risk for sport or purely for the enjoyment of humans. If we own horses, we are risking them and ourselves every time we ride them. Horse riding of any kind is a risky activity and everyone who keeps and rides horses, whether it is for pleasure or competing, should remember that before criticising the choices made by others.

Anybody who travels a horse in a trailer or a lorry is risking it’s life. Showjumping, polo, racing and hacking are all risky. To my mind you either stop it all or you have to accept that some horses will get injured and some will die, same for riders, regardless of safety measures to mitigate the risks as much as possible. There is no way to eliminate risk to horses and riders other than to stop people owning horses.

 

[ycbm]

Not all risks are equal.
.

 

[Upthecreek]

Not all risks are equal.
.

No they aren’t but risk is risk and all activities we do with horses are for the benefit and enjoyment of humans, which puts horses at risk of injury or death.

 

[sakura]

Perhaps but I have no intention of doing the work for them.

If we don’t, elite horse sports will have an expiry date ??‍ the public do not owe us anything and they wouldn’t care if people simply stopped riding horses tomorrow. To keep equestrian sports in the Olympics (and therefore the funding), the horse community needs to be more proactive with its image.

Not all risks are the same, which is why most insurance companies charge more to cover high risk activities - such as affiliated eventing. There is a greater risk of the horse being injured and/or killed - simple as that.

 

[Dexter]

Again, it doesn’t really matter what we all think because the future of elite horse sports will almost certainly come down to public opinion. The public doesn’t care if statistically more horses die on the road. A lot of non horse folk would only argue that they shouldn’t be there anyway, so I’m not sure how strong a point that is to them.

People don’t want to see horses dying. The only reason eventing is not having to address this on a much larger platform is because it hasn’t gone viral (yet).

And yet racing is still going despite horse deaths regularly going viral.

 

[cauda equina]

Racing has betting on its side - punters like betting and the government gets money from betting tax
The same can't be said of eventing where there's little to no interest from people not actually doing it or involved with horses in other ways

 

[ycbm]

No they aren’t but risk is risk and all activities we do with horses are for the benefit and enjoyment of humans, which puts horses at risk of injury or death.

You pretend to acknowledge my point without in any way acknowledging my point.

So I'll spell it out.

If the risk of not coming back with a live horse from a 10 minute hack was the same as the risk of not bringing a live horse home from a top level event, then there would be so many horses dying that hacking would probably cease.
.

 

[ycbm]

And yet racing is still going despite horse deaths regularly going viral.

It is an enigma, but I think it may be because racing is seen as an industry, where eventing is sport. It may also be because the racecourse deaths happen in a bunch and are off camera in a flash, whereas the eventer which dies is alone on course and the only one being watched when it falls.
.

 

[sakura]

And yet racing is still going despite horse deaths regularly going viral.

Racing is not an Olympic sport.

 

[Orangehorse]

Judging by the numbers of spectators at Badminton and Burghley, in general people are quite happy to accept the risks involved for horse and rider.

Racehorse trainers will be seen crying over the loss of a horse from their stable, but they carry on training.

 

[Upthecreek]

You pretend to acknowledge my point without in any way acknowledging my point.

So I'll spell it out.

If the risk of not coming back with a live horse from a 10 minute hack was the same as the risk of not bringing a live horse home from a top level event, then there would be so many horses dying that hacking would probably cease.
.

Please stop being so patronising, it is unnecessary. I’m not pretending anything. The point I was trying to make is that horses are kept solely for the benefit and enjoyment of humans, whether for sport or leisure and there is risk in all of it, though undoubtedly greater risk at high levels of eventing than going for a hack (I didn’t say there wasn’t).

If I have an accident hacking tomorrow and my horse is injured or killed who collates those figures if it’s not a road accident? We don’t know how many horses and riders are injured or killed doing less risky activities or getting injured in the field, or from colicking or from laminitis because it’s not high profile and not publicised. I would guess many more horses are injured or die as a result of normal activities or poor care/management than competing at high levels of eventing.

 

[sakura]

Judging by the numbers of spectators at Badminton and Burghley, in general people are quite happy to accept the risks involved for horse and rider.

Racehorse trainers will be seen crying over the loss of a horse from their stable, but they carry on training.

They are majority eventing fans though. I’m arguing that it’ll be the non horsey public who will ultimately decide equestrian sports fate in the Olympics. They are one or two bad PR stories away from losing their place. Eventing fans seeing horses dying for sport as an acceptable risk will be their downfall - imo.

 

[ycbm]

Please stop being so patronising, it is unnecessary. I’m not pretending anything. The point I was trying to make is that horses are kept solely for the benefit and enjoyment of humans, whether for sport or leisure and there is risk in all of it, though undoubtedly greater risk at high levels of eventing than going for a hack (I didn’t say there wasn’t).

If I have an accident hacking tomorrow and my horse is injured or killed who collates those figures if it’s not a road accident? We don’t know how many horses and riders are injured or killed doing less risky activities or getting injured in the field, or from colicking or from laminitis because it’s not high profile and not publicised. I would guess many more horses are injured or die as a result of normal activities or poor care/management than competing at high levels of eventing.

If you don't see the difference between risk per hour of hacking and risk per hour of top level cross country, then this discussion is pointless.
.

 

[Upthecreek]

If you don't see the difference between risk per hour of hacking and risk per hour of top level cross country, then this discussion is pointless.
.

I do see the difference! However the risks associated with owning a horse are acceptable to some people because they want to keep and ride horses for pleasure. The risks of owning horses for high level eventers are acceptable because it’s their career and generates their income. I struggle to see how people can say one is acceptable and one isn’t. The difference is that the numbers of deaths in high level eventing are recorded and publicised and those of leisure horses are not.

 

[YorkshireLady]

to add to this from an animals in sport POV RSPCA and The Dog's Trust have gone out now as against Greyhound racing, whereas prior they were working with the authorities involved.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/-/news-charities-call-for-end-greyhound-racing-uk

 

[RachelFerd]

If you don't see the difference between risk per hour of hacking and risk per hour of top level cross country, then this discussion is pointless.
.

Well, if you're analysing risk 'per hour' then of course a XC round looks far more risky at 5-10 minutes a month. I'd be genuinely interested in analysis of this. I probably spend 2 hrs hacking on the roads every week, I average 2.5 minutes of competitive cross country per week, and my horse spends 50 hours a week in his field. If we look on a per-hour basis at these things, of course the XC is more dangerous. The reality is that I suspect we are nearly as likely to be involved in a serious road accident as we are to have a serious fall cross country (at my level - 2*, NOT 4*) because I spend a lot more time out hacking exposed to risk than I do when going XC. And that the most likely location for serious injury to take place is the field. In fact, he seems to have done something nasty to his splint bone in the field this week, so probability strikes again.

Lets not forget though that in order to mitigate risk we have comprehensive veterinary attendance at competitions - which is not the case when people are out hacking. I can barely comprehend the trauma that some horses (and riders) have had to go to waiting extended amounts of time for veterinary help when serious accidents have happened on the road.

Anyone involved with owning and riding horses at any level is making a series of calculated compromises about what we choose to do with our horses and how we choose to keep them.

 

[Chianti]

Judging by the numbers of spectators at Badminton and Burghley, in general people are quite happy to accept the risks involved for horse and rider.

Racehorse trainers will be seen crying over the loss of a horse from their stable, but they carry on training.

But the spectators at events are 'horsey' people - not the non horsey public. It will be the latter who may eventually decide horse sports future. I come back to a point I made earlier - why is it acceptable to put horses in a situation where they may get injured or die but we wouldn't accept the same scenario for dogs taking part in agility or cats that are shown. I know everything we do with horses carries a risk and the longer I have horses and see how the horse world works the more I query what I do with mine. It's the level of risk in eventing that I think people are questioning. If you took 500 horses that 'just' hacked and 500 that evented at 3+ star how would the injury/death rates compare?

 

[oldie48]

But the spectators at events are 'horsey' people - not the non horsey public. It will be the latter who may eventually decide horse sports future. I come back to a point I made earlier - why is it acceptable to put horses in a situation where they may get injured or die but we wouldn't accept the same scenario for dogs taking part in agility or cats that are shown. I know everything we do with horses carries a risk and the longer I have horses and see how the horse world works the more I query what I do with mine. It's the level of risk in eventing that I think people are questioning. If you took 500 horses that 'just' hacked and 500 that evented at 3+ star how would the injury/death rates compare?

Having just watched the two visiting horses charging round the paddock by my house with my heart in my mouth I can't help thinking they are both safer going round a XC course commensurate with their level of training and ability. They are really very stupid at times but are clearly enjoying their holiday. tbh I don't think the "general" public are much interested in what happens in horse sports, it is the activists who join PETA, infiltrate organisations like the RSPCA and the National Trust who will be behind any attempts to ban horse sports and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are with us on this forum.

 

[ycbm]

I struggle to see how people can say one is acceptable and one isn’t.

Because one is probably thousands of times higher risk than the other.

Some people choose not to ski/skateboard/whitewater raft/drag hunt/dangerous sport of choice because they are more likely to be hurt doing those activities than alternative activities. Eventers are making that choice for horses, bad outcomes are being seen in full detail on camera, and people are beginning to question whether we have that right to choose for the horses.

 

[sakura]

tbh I don't think the "general" public are much interested in what happens in horse sports, it is the activists who join PETA, infiltrate organisations like the RSPCA and the National Trust who will be behind any attempts to ban horse sports and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are with us on this forum.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that.
I think the general public are a lot more invested than you realise - it just doesn’t cross into their daily lives often. That’s why I think it’s just one or two bad PR stories away from the IOC genuinely considering dropping them.

 

[Chianti]

Having just watched the two visiting horses charging round the paddock by my house with my heart in my mouth I can't help thinking they are both safer going round a XC course commensurate with their level of training and ability. They are really very stupid at times but are clearly enjoying their holiday. tbh I don't think the "general" public are much interested in what happens in horse sports, it is the activists who join PETA, infiltrate organisations like the RSPCA and the National Trust who will be behind any attempts to ban horse sports and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are with us on this forum.

The general public was quite interested in fox hunting and didn't object to it being controlled by law. I really doubt that there are any members of PETA on this forum. If there are they're being very controlled in the language they use. Re your horses charging round the paddock. perhaps one of the differences is that they are choosing themselves to go at top speed rather than presented to a large fixed object and being expected to jump it.