Eventing 3 horse deaths at Blenheim HT, have courses become too technical? Are horses not prepared enough?

[oldie48]

I think what can come over in some of the posts is a rather negative attitude to those of us who support BE, almost as if anyone who supports a potentially risky sport is cruel and unfeeling towards horses and tbh it really puts my back up, can't speak for others! Any course designer will be extremely upset at the death of a horse or a serious injury to a rider, courses IME are designed to be a sensible test for horse and rider. I remember talking to Janet Plant before riders went round a final PT course at Sansaw. Fence 5 into water was a stinker and quite a few combinations failed to get through it and continue, that was exactly what it was designed to do. Sort out the weaker combinations so they didn't end up hurting themselves and their pony. I actually think there is more focus on safely these days and that is a good thing. I completely support any changes that would make the XC phase safer but I don't believe you can remove risk because you will never remove rider and horse error from the equation.

 

[sakura]

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have said since my very first post here that I don’t know the answer, only that there needs to be one. I have loved eventing for a very long time but now I find it uncomfortable to watch at the top levels. Of course I want the sport to find a solution.

 

[oldie48]

"Most owners already do everything they possibly can to prevent accidental field deaths from happening at all - can you honestly say the same about eventing? "
Sakura, It is this sort of comment (made by you) that "puts my back up" and IME eventers, especially at the higher levels do everything they can to prepare their horses well and certainly don't have a cavalier attitude towards their horses' welfare and safety. However, I could definitely take you to a number of fields where horses are turned out and show you inadequate or unsuitable fencing, pasture with ragwort, fat ponies and horses turned out on lush grass or on paddocks that are deep in mud during the winter, paddocks that are overgrazed and horse sick etc. I also know of horses that stand in a field six days of the week but the owners thinks nothing of taking a fat and unfit horse on a fast fun ride or show jumping, that would never happen in higher level eventing. By all means let's discuss the issues around course design (which is at the heart of this thread) but please don't suggest that anyone who events does not want to bring their horse home safely at the end of the day and for everyone I know that is paramount and far more important than being placed.

 

[sakura]

"Most owners already do everything they possibly can to prevent accidental field deaths from happening at all - can you honestly say the same about eventing? "
Sakura, It is this sort of comment (made by you) that "puts my back up" and IME eventers, especially at the higher levels do everything they can to prepare their horses well and certainly don't have a cavalier attitude towards their horses' welfare and safety. However, I could definitely take you to a number of fields where horses are turned out and show you inadequate or unsuitable fencing, pasture with ragwort, fat ponies and horses turned out on lush grass or on paddocks that are deep in mud during the winter, paddocks that are overgrazed and horse sick etc. I also know of horses that stand in a field six days of the week but the owners thinks nothing of taking a fat and unfit horse on a fast fun ride or show jumping, that would never happen in higher level eventing. By all means let's discuss the issues around course design (which is at the heart of this thread) but please don't suggest that anyone who events does not want to bring their horse home safely at the end of the day and for everyone I know that is paramount and far more important than being placed.

I meant the sporting bodies. Can you honestly say that BE and the FEI are doing everything they can to prevent deaths and injuries to both horses and riders? I thought I was clear that I have been talking about the elite side of the sport and its Olympic component. Apologies for not making that clear.

 

[honetpot]

"Most owners already do everything they possibly can to prevent accidental field deaths from happening at all - can you honestly say the same about eventing? "
Sakura, It is this sort of comment (made by you) that "puts my back up" and IME eventers, especially at the higher levels do everything they can to prepare their horses well and certainly don't have a cavalier attitude towards their horses' welfare and safety. However, I could definitely take you to a number of fields where horses are turned out and show you inadequate or unsuitable fencing, pasture with ragwort, fat ponies and horses turned out on lush grass or on paddocks that are deep in mud during the winter, paddocks that are overgrazed and horse sick etc. I also know of horses that stand in a field six days of the week but the owners thinks nothing of taking a fat and unfit horse on a fast fun ride or show jumping, that would never happen in higher level eventing. By all means let's discuss the issues around course design (which is at the heart of this thread) but please don't suggest that anyone who events does not want to bring their horse home safely at the end of the day and for everyone I know that is paramount and far more important than being placed.

I agree with a lot of what you have said, but

who events does not want to bring their horse home safely at the end of the day and for everyone I know that is paramount and far more important than being placed.

There some people who will do anything to win, there are some people in a situation where their competitive instinct overrides everything else, that is often why they are winners. There is a very fine line between getting the 'best' out a horse, and breaking it, and those that do should be penalised severely.
We have made mistakes with horses, I can remember doing a really stupid thing, and thinking we could both have been dead, and you vow you will never do that thing again, but people are making the same 'mistakes' and also there is a fair amount of undisclosed abuse going on behind the scenes in horse sport, so let's not make out everyone who competes has the horses best interest as their main consideration.

 

[oldie48]

"There some people who will do anything to win, there are some people in a situation where their competitive instinct overrides everything else, that is often why they are winners. There is a very fine line between getting the 'best' out a horse, and breaking it, and those that do should be penalised severely."

There are people like this in every aspect of life and every sport tbh I think in eventing they don't last long unless they change, owners (and I know a few) will not have horses with riders who don't take care of their horses. It's noticeable that no-one has mentioned the number of competitors, who having had a stop XC will retire, or retire if they feel the horse is tired or not "quite right" or will nurse a horse home, it's always a focus on cruelty and then a generalisation that seems to include a whole group of people who behave perfectly well or alludes to something "hidden". If people are aware of abuse, FGS report it, name and shame but don't include perfectly innocent and caring people who do all they can for their horses. Every horse or rider incident is looked at after an event and if riders feel a jump is an unfair question they can ask the rider representative to raise it before the XC starts. IME no rider will go out expecting to have a fall and if they are unsure of a fence they can usually choose a long route. But yes, any abuse of the horse should be punished I don't know anyone who would disagree with that. I apologise for being rather passionate about this but I also see the other side of this, anyone who thinks being a pro rider is a glamourous life is sadly very wrong. It's hard work, full of heartache and disappointment and for many it's a constant battle to pay the bills, definitely not for the faint hearted!

 

[sakura]

Thank you, oldie48. Your passion does you well and you’re right that it’s incredibly important to remember the vast majority are good, honest people who love their horses and will pull up when needed.

My concern, as it always is on these threads, is the future of eventing (and all elite horse sport). Seeing that the modern pentathlon has now dropped SJ all together after the Tokyo backlash is interesting.

 

[LEC]

Having watched the Sue Dyson video and stats on 7 or more behaviours having an impact on outcomes xc, I think we need to change the approach taken during the dressage. I appreciate some horses are not such happy athletes during the dressage but 7 or more behaviours is quite significant. I think more research should go into this especially at 4L and 5*.

 

[shortstuff99]

Having watched the Sue Dyson video and stats on 7 or more behaviours having an impact on outcomes xc, I think we need to change the approach taken during the dressage. I appreciate some horses are not such happy athletes during the dressage but 7 or more behaviours is quite significant. I think more research should go into this especially at 4L and 5*.

I also saw that and wondered if it could be used to reduce accidents, very interesting!

On a bit of a side note to that, my older mare has never been the easiest and I always wondered if something was underlying so I applied that ethnogram to her and only came out with 2 of the signs, so maybe it is just her ?‍.

 

[Noogle]

I think the sport has indeed changed. I did my biggest challenges on a big and bold mare, she ate rider frighteners for breakfast.

I was somewhat irritated when the courses became more technical. The dressage part tests schooling and accuracy. The SJ tests accuracy too. I believe that eventing should be an all round test, so the XC should test power and boldness.

I hate the modern courses with a gallop to a cluster of jumps that are more like show jumps. They feel trappy and encourage backwards riding.

I read an interesting article that blames the increase of the technical clusters. It means the riders are making the horses more 'on the bit' and 'obedient' as opposed to free forward movement with the horse looking at the fence and making some of the decisions as to where their feet go!

I completely agree. I miss when eventing was actually about cross country instead of just dressage. I think we should be making courses longer and bigger, instead of smaller and more technical clusters.

I also think that looking back at some eventer’s biographies, horses didn’t necessarily ‘break down’ after long format, as it seems nearly all retired fit and sound enough to live out their days hunting ?

The ‘modern’ event horses don’t have the same quick thinking boldness and self preservation that blood horses have. Why is eventing now a dressage test and two rounds of showjumping?? New courses also encourage riders, as said above, to ride backwards.

my albeit unpopular solution would be to bring back longer courses (not necessarily long format) with bigger less technical fences. Make the dressage much less influential and make the Xc a lot more.

The sport at 5 star seen nowadays is not the sport I fell in love with.

 

[ycbm]

Can any of us explain how we could make the cross country produce a split between a number of really good horses, though?

I'm not sure a bigger or longer or less technical course would do it. I suspect it would just produce a lot of equal firsts, who then have to be split on dressage or a very difficult show jumping course. ?

 

[ycbm]

The problem, I think, is that everyone got too good at the dressage and show jumping!

I have a friend who was eventing at the top level in the 80's. She did her dressage in a GP saddle. Imagine that at Badminton these days!
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[MagicMelon]

I have a friend who was eventing at the top level in the 80's. She did her dressage in a GP saddle. Imagine that at Badminton these days!
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Even at the low levels I feel out of place competing in a GP saddle! Everyone these days even from 80's seem to have a dressage saddle and fancy XC saddle... I did only when I was doing novices, dont feel I need more than a GP until then!

 

[LEC]

Even at the low levels I feel out of place competing in a GP saddle! Everyone these days even from 80's seem to have a dressage saddle and fancy XC saddle... I did only when I was doing novices, dont feel I need more than a GP until then!

Depends what you get on with. I can’t ride in a GP as too straight cut. My knee goes over the flap as long in thigh. I would have been one of those in a racing saddle back in 80s as that’s what they did.

 

[claracanter]

Even at the low levels I feel out of place competing in a GP saddle! Everyone these days even from 80's seem to have a dressage saddle and fancy XC saddle... I did only when I was doing novices, dont feel I need more than a GP until then!

Not quite the same but I do BE90 dressage in a jump saddle. Don’t find dressage saddles comfortable so have given up trying to look the part so just ride in what’s comfortable.