3rd body found...

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I'm really sorry but I find it appalling that anyone can have hatred for a man you have never met and who has not directly affected your life. If you abhorred his actions - assuming they are his actions - then I would agree with you, they are abhorrent actions but hate is such a strong word.

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Oh well, I'm afraid I stand by it and certainly make no apology for it!
 
Do they deserve nothing but hatred even if it was/could somehow be proven that they were incredibly mentally ill?

What evidence do we have that says he was of a completely sound frame of mind when he did this? We may never know one way or the other, but I really don't think he could have been of sound mind to have planned and committed these henious crimes. Losing a business and all your worldly wealth must have been incredibly stressful, what's to say that didn't trigger something a lot more serious?

That's why I can't hate him. Because I cannot comprehend that he was 100% sane & sober in mind to have done this.
 
<font color="blue"> He valued his own pride and vanity more. He was a morally bankrupt businessman who thought nothing of owing others thousands, and possibly ruining their businesses. For that alone he is a loathesome character </font>

Which was the underlying character, regardless of whether he subsequently got depressed and the split personality or whatever syndrom e he supposedly might have got. I knew when I was depressed (and what a self destructive and family ruining experience that was) exactly what had led to the downward spiral of my mental and physical state. I did something about it and recovered and vowed not to 'go there' again (cause or effect).

It didn't involve doing anyone down but myself and it bloody well serves HIM right that he lost everything, but that his family and their beloved animals paid the ultimate price for his morally unscrupulous behaviour is heartbreakingly tragic.

lzt and Sooty - yup, hate is OK. No word strong enough really.
For those who are feeling pity due to mental illness, 'insanity' is a popular plea. He should have offed himself. If I was given the option, I'd go for bankrupt and alive thank you very much. If my OH wants to blow his head off, that's up to him. We'd cope.
 
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Do they deserve nothing but hatred even if it was/could somehow be proven that they were incredibly mentally ill?


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Absolutely. There may be a label for why a murderer's a murderer that does not make it OK. If you are becoming mentally ill, guess what you can phone your doctor. If you are a millionaire you can go to re-hab. Hell you can blow your brains out if you want. This was calculated, cold-blooded murder. There is always a choice and however ill you might be you know when you've got a gun in your hand and you're shooting people.
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Snap. I feel unspeakable rage and immense sorrow when I think of a 15 year long life being snuffed out, and I do not accept the 'state of mind' argument. This man was described by a High Court Judge as being morally bankrupt; he systematically despatched his animals and family and made it impossible for rescue services to enter. My only hope now is that he didn't botch any of the shootings, and that it is indeed his body also inside the house.
 
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A good friend of mine killed himself because his truck was going to be repossessed in part because of a tax debt. Of course it wasn't the truck that did it, that was the trigger. But he was just as dead.


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Suicide; whole different thing to murder.
Someone murdered a teenage girl. They deserve nothing but hatred. They've possibly even escaped punishment by killing themself.

Incidentally Brighteyes, while in the most part I agree with you about the gender aspect, when I did jury service I got a murder trial for a female arsonist who killed the family she was staying with.
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Do you really think someone sane would kill themselves merely to escape punishment? What's the point in that? OF COURSE, he should NEVER have even considered harming his wife and daughter but it's not like he killed them to cover up a crime or because he was somehow annoyed with them. He clearly felt - for whatever reason - he couldn't "leave them behind". NOT SANE. (Although kings are famous for it.)

This really doesn't look like he killed them in passion and then shot himself in grief, which might be the other argument in the escaping punishment point. It's ABHORRENT to take a life, to hurt other people . . . does everyone really think this was his goal, though? That escape and desperation and imbalance had nothing to do with it?

As to suicide, everyone knows that hurts other people. And yet people do it anyway. I don't for a second think people who make that choice think about it rationally . . . if they could do that would they reach that conclusion? I'm sure my friend thought he was SAVING his fiance the pain of his humiliation. Idiot.

I would argue all of us have lied to love ones. Not on this scale and never with these consequences but hands up the person who has never made light of a debt or run away from a problem. OF COURSE this doesn't excuse his behaviour - nothing does. But to say he planned all this out, just to be a prick . . . it doesn't make any sense. So if he's not making sense . . .

*Should* this man have left his wife and child safe? Of course. He should never have got them into the whole mess in the first place. He shouldn't have lied, he shouldn't have fiddled the books, he should have been realistic and sensible. Obviously. But he wasn't. For a long, long time.
 
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If you are becoming mentally ill, guess what you can phone your doctor.

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I don't agree with that statement. There are many, many people who suffer from all sorts of mental illnesses in this country yet do not go to their doctor. The reason they don't go to their doctor is often related to the illness, and can vary from "I'm making it up" to not understanding that there is anything wrong.

...but I am happy to agree to disagree with others on the pity/hate thing, its your emotions and entirely your choice!
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Every single person who has committed a crime, has had a 'reason' to do it.

Paedophiles who rape and kill young children have mental issues which drive them to commit these acts, but we rarely see anybody fighting their corner and telling others that they shouldn't hate these men for what they have done.

This man destroyed everything systematically, and made sure that nothing could be saved.
I would be interested to hear what a criminal psychologist makes of his actions, because from where I'm sitting, his actions go WAY beyond those of a man at the end of his tether.
 
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Every single person who has committed a crime, has had a 'reason' to do it.

Paedophiles who rape and kill young children have mental issues which drive them to commit these acts, but we rarely see anybody fighting their corner and telling others that they shouldn't hate these men for what they have done.


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You must have missed the thread a few weeks ago about Gary Glitter and peadophiles and the mental aspect of what they do and how they should be treated somehow rather than despised and attacked by mobs then?
 
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This was calculated, cold-blooded murder.

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You know that then?
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Yes. The driveways were blocked and the exits were blocked. Not a crime of passion.
 
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Every single person who has committed a crime, has had a 'reason' to do it.

Paedophiles who rape and kill young children have mental issues which drive them to commit these acts, but we rarely see anybody fighting their corner and telling others that they shouldn't hate these men for what they have done.


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You must have missed the thread a few weeks ago about Gary Glitter and peadophiles and the mental aspect of what they do and how they should be treated somehow rather than despised and attacked by mobs then?

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Why the patronising comment that I must have missed that thread?

No, I did not miss it.
However, the views of a few people on a horsey forum are hardly representative of the views of the whole population.

I quote " <font color="blue"> we rarely see anybody fighting their corner. </font>
 
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and FWIW, here is mine.

"Innocent until proven guilty".

My condolensces to anyone affected by this horror.

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He has been proven guilty, unless the CCTV of him with a shotgun leaving the stable block was tampered with
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This was calculated, cold-blooded murder.

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You know that then?
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Yes. The driveways were blocked and the exits were blocked. Not a crime of passion.

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I agree with KVS. The blocking of the driveway with the trailer with slashed tyres, to deliberately slow down the rescue services, and the barricading of the doors inside the house, is surely proof of premeditation.
 
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and FWIW, here is mine.

"Innocent until proven guilty".

My condolensces to anyone affected by this horror.

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A small consolation, but I'd love it to turn out not to be the husband and it be someone trying to get revenge and set him up. I also want whoever did it to rot in hell.
 
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Or maybe he blocked the windows and the drive as he knew the bailiffs were coming and the events unfolded from there.

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It is feasible, but I don't think Kirstie would have been happily chatting to friends on the internet, while her daddy was barricading the house.
 
maybe i've watched "murder she wrote" too often, but...



"he" put a silencer on the gun, shot the daughter/wife..

went outside, shot the 3 horses/dogs, drove horsebox to end of drive, blocked drive, walked back, set fire to garage and stables....walked to house, chucked the dogs inside, baracaded doors, set fire to house, then when all was well alight, went to his wife and shot himself...

my 50pence worth...
 
[quoteWhy the patronising comment that I must have missed that thread?



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I wasn't patronising Dubs, or I wasn't meaning to. I thought you must have missed it and was saying that it had happened and people had 'defended' and said that paedophiles aren't necessarily in control of themselves. Sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention.
 
Weezy, I havent seen any reports of what was in the CCTV footage. The lunchtime BBC news said that there were rumours that it contained images of the father but that this hadnt been confirmed.

I doubt it would be tampered with but until its is confirmed by official sources that he had the gun and was seen killing anything or anyone, I will reserve my judgement.

He MIGHT have barracaded the family in and blocked the gates, then gone and got a gun to try and protect the family. Who knows at this moment in time?
 
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[quoteWhy the patronising comment that I must have missed that thread?



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I wasn't patronising Dubs, or I wasn't meaning to. I thought you must have missed it and was saying that it had happened and people had 'defended' and said that paedophiles aren't necessarily in control of themselves. Sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention.

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No probs hun - you certainly haven't offended me.
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I really do see what you're trying to say, but everything about this man seems to point to greed and pride.

He continued his luxury lifestyle WAY after his business floundered, and syphoned off assets in order to keep going.

If he had killed himself, I could sympathise to an extent, and even killing his family might indicate a man who wanted to spare them the shame of being penniless, but it is still all about his pride.

But when you add on the killing of the animals, the destruction of the cars, and the burning down of the house, it becomes more than just saving your family from shame.

The only reason I can see for doing all that is a 'if I can't have it, nobody can' mentality.
 
So many do that though - I've worked for several, the only reason people are up in arms about it is because of what it appears it has lead to, otherwise no-one gives a toss.

I am finding it hard that people are saying they hate a man they have never met and who has not directly affected their lives based on this. It seems very OTT to me. I am also trying to point out - very very badly it appears - that there are always two sides to every story and often the obvious is not always the reason for something. Everyone, myself included, is jumping to the most disturbing conclusions and assumptions, believing what the papers print - and we all know they can't be trusted -and calling a man none of us knows the most vile things with no concrete proof. To be honest it makes me sad for human life. I think I should stop trying to see both sides of the coin, it only ever gets me into trouble.
 
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