A controversial one…

[Barklands]

I am very aware that this will be quite a controversial question and is more of an exploration of ideas rather than saying I am absolutely planning on doing this.

The background is that we have a mare as a project with a known history of bolting. We have taken her right back to the beginning and re backed her. All of the ground work has been done and she is absolutely spot on with that. Not once has she said no.

The issue is that once she is ridden away and asked to trot she tenses up, bolts then drops her shoulder. She is so quick that I would defy almost anyone to sit it! This is even more of an issue as she gives herself even more of a fright.

Our next step is to try our weighted dummy on her but I expect this will not result in the same reaction. It seems like it will be impossible to get past this any other way except having the rider on board as she is so easy with everything else.

So my question is would you ever consider giving a very light sedation to get a very difficult horse riding away? If I am correct Sedalin slows the heart and reactions so I definitely would not be keen to use that. However, there is a substance which I understand has been rife in the showing circles rhyming with *ahem* erm… fromide… which I think may take the edge off her in order to get past the issue. I am sure I heard racing yards have been known to use it when starting difficult colts. Obviously I am aware of the associated health risks long term but was thinking so she could get 3/4 confidence boosting rides under her belt.

She has had everything checked and is sound as a pound, it is just an unfortunate behavioural issue due to a poor start before she came to us.

Would be very interested in thoughts particularly if anyone else has ever considered this route?

 

[HopOnTrot]

It doesn’t sound like a safe option to me, either she could over ride the sedation, or you could get a half sedated horses trying to bolt, or you have a scared horse that can’t move.

If it’s behavioural then you just need to take it even slower than you are if she’s reaching her threshold.

 

[nutjob]

I've ridden one after being give sedalin. Also had one given it for a pro to ride as part of vet work up. It seemed to be a reasonably common thing at the vets for horses in for lameness / lack of performance workups which also had associated behavioural issues.

What kind of vet checks have you had, if it's a basic lameness work up a lot of things can be missed.

 

[Barklands]

It doesn’t sound like a safe option to me, either she could over ride the sedation, or you could get a half sedated horses trying to bolt, or you have a scared horse that can’t move.

If it’s behavioural then you just need to take it even slower than you are if she’s reaching her threshold.

I agree it wouldn’t be my first choice but I am not sure that would be any more dangerous than what she is already doing! Ah the joys of tricky horses!

It would be a struggle to go much slower to be honest, she just hits that point and gets triggered and it very much seems a learned behaviour…

 

[Barklands]

I've ridden one after being give sedalin. Also had one given it for a pro to ride as part of vet work up. It seemed to be a reasonably common thing at the vets for horses in for lameness / lack of performance workups which also had associated behavioural issues.

What kind of vet checks have you had, if it's a basic lameness work up a lot of things can be missed.

That’s very interesting to know, thank you.

She had a full lameness work up with previous owners inc. x-rays which showed nothing abnormal. Given her very rushed initial backing the vet was confident it was behavioural.

 

[Patterdale]

Sedalin or similar might get you through a couple of rides….or it can make the behaviour more extreme and unpredictable.

Either way, you’re extremely unlikely to get this behaviour out of the horse.

What is your long term plan for it? If it is to keep for yourself, then maybe worth carrying on if you desperately want to. If to sell on in the future, I’d throw the towel in now. To be totally honest.

Well done for caring about the horse and trying to give it a second chance though.

 

[Barklands]

Sedalin or similar might get you through a couple of rides….or it can make the behaviour more extreme and unpredictable.

Either way, you’re extremely unlikely to get this behaviour out of the horse.

What is your long term plan for it? If it is to keep for yourself, then maybe worth carrying on if you desperately want to. If to sell on in the future, I’d throw the towel in now. To be totally honest.

Well done for caring about the horse and trying to give it a second chance though.

If it can’t be resolved she will be a broodmare for me but would like to exhaust all avenues first as we have had a few rides where we have been able to work through the initial panic and have managed to stop the bolt she works brilliantly and can feel her growing in confidence.

As a result of that, I just feel like if it takes the edge off her and we can have a few positive rides in a row she will blossom in confidence. Otherwise sedating in my book would be an absolute no no!

 

[TheMule]

I simply don’t bother now with these kind of horses stuck in this pattern of behaviour. You’ve done the right thing in just taking everything back to basics, but she’s still dangerously over-reactive- in my experience they never lose that panic instinct and it’s mostly likely rooted in a physical cause you haven’t found yet.
Also, please don’t use her as a broodmare- if this is physical you’re almost certainly going to cause her pain. If it’s just part of her then you’re breeding poor temperament/ trainability into a foal.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Not sure if you've seen her in face book but Sophie seymore had pretty much the same issue with one. Long story short, after vet investigations and trying everything to get pony going she gave pony sedalin to hack. Statred with 7ml I think. Gradually each ride she reduced it. It is now a very safe pony to ride!

 

[Barklands]

I simply don’t bother now with these kind of horses stuck in this pattern of behaviour. You’ve done the right thing in just taking everything back to basics, but she’s still dangerously over-reactive- in my experience they never lose that panic instinct and it’s mostly likely rooted in a physical cause you haven’t found yet.
Also, please don’t use her as a broodmare- if this is physical you’re almost certainly going to cause her pain. If it’s just part of her then you’re breeding poor temperament/ trainability into a foal.

As I said above it is definitely behavioural.

She had a foal prior to breaking happily with no issues. Foal had the right start so no issues with temperament. She is quiet as a mouse in all other aspects so I don’t feel poor a very poor initial breaking experience (the history of which is known about and disclosed by previous owners) should brandish a horse unsuitable for breeding.

Once she gets past the initial panic at the beginning she works beautifully and quietly. It she did that behaviour repeatedly throughout a ride I would be inclined to agree but she doesn’t.

 

[Barklands]

Not sure if you've seen her in face book but Sophie seymore had pretty much the same issue with one. Long story short, after vet investigations and trying everything to get pony going she gave pony sedalin to hack. Statred with 7ml I think. Gradually each ride she reduced it. It is now a very safe pony to ride!

I haven’t but I will take a look! That is very interesting, thank you.

 

[Marigold4]

Have you looked at Featherlight Horsemanship? She has successfully dealt with a number of dangerous horses. She has some useful videos showing her approach. She is a VERY good rider with nerves of steel! I'm not sure normal mortals would be able to achieve her approach. What she does is to allow horses to make mistakes/panic but doesn't reprimand or grab the reins. She just keeps on riding till they stop. She works first in a round pen and then in an indoor school. I know that my instinct for self-preservation would kick in quite early and I would try and do something to make the horse stop - she just keeps on riding! You can sign up to her training academy for a month to watch the videos.

 

[ycbm]

the vet was confident it was behavioural.

I wish I had ten quid for every time I've read that about horses that were later found to have stuff like deep seated tendon issues that won't show on any scan, bone problems that won't show on x rays, PSSM etc

My own youngster that did similar things to yours, only bucked not bolted, was going blind at 4. I rigged up a safety harness to the roof of the barn (I have a photo) before getting the vet to check his eyes. She agreed they were odd, with peripheral atrophy of the retina, but at that stage said he would still pass a 5 stage vet, and didn’t think it would progress. Yet he was fully blind in one eye and mostly blind in the other within a few months.

I'm not saying yours isn't behavioural, and a really skilled remedial trainer is worth a try, but personally, I wouldn't contemplate sedating a horse to back it unless I had checked everything checkable, money no object. Head to toe xrays, bute trial (not guaranteed to work on nerves or backs) and a whole body scinitigraph. I probably wouldn't pay for all that, but just accept the horse doesn't want to be ridden.
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[maya2008]

Is it just trot? So fine in walk? What happens if she is led from the ground when you go into trot? Is there any difference between sitting and rising, or between asking with leg or voice?

 

[HopOnTrot]

My mare with kissing spines would only ever take off bucking once in a lesson, apart from that there were no other signs so I wouldn’t discount pain either. Not saying it’s KS but saying that constant pain can show as a one off reaction rather than a constant battle.

 

[Barklands]

I wish I had ten quid for every time I've read that about horses that were later found to have stuff like deep seated tendon issues that won't show on any scan, bone problems that won't show on x rays, PSSM etc

My own youngster that did similar things to yours, only bucked not bolted, was going blind at 4. I rigged up a safety harness to the roof of the barn (I have a photo) before getting the vet to check his eyes. She agreed they were odd, with peripheral atrophy of the retina, but at that stage said he would still pass a 5 stage vet, and didn’t think it would progress. Yet he was fully blind in one eye and mostly blind in the other within a few months.

I'm not saying yours isn't behavioural, and a really skilled remedial trainer is worth a try, but personally, I wouldn't contemplate sedating a horse to back it unless I had checked everything checkable, money no object. Head to toe xrays, bute trial (not guaranteed to work on nerves or backs) and a whole body scinitigraph. I probably wouldn't pay for all that, but just accept the horse doesn't want to be ridden.
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Words of a reputable vet after extensive testing, not mine

She was largely unhandled to “backed” in a couple of weeks by a “professional” - I think that speaks for itself however…

My horses wouldn’t have even finished mouthing in that time!

 

[Pinkvboots]

I personally would never ride a horse that's been sedated when you have had one fall on top of you it kind of puts it into perspective.

I think I would have to check everything I possibly could pain wise before continuing, I would lay money on the fact there is something wrong with the horse just because a vet says not doesn't mean that is the case.

What checks and x rays has the horse had?

And considering these were done by a previous owner have you seen them?

 

[ycbm]

Words of a reputable vet after extensive testing, not mine

Yep, words I've heard and seen from many a reputable vet. It's their goto when they can't find a diagnosis they can explain any other way.
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[Barklands]

Yep, words I've heard and seen from many a reputable vet. It's their goto when they can't find a diagnosis they can explain any other way.
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I don’t disagree but that is not the case here. She had a terrible experience with backing and it has rightfully frightened her in the process, the vet checks were for the purpose of peace of mind for her previous owners (corroborated by my vet) but her ridden history is clearly the issue here.

 

[ycbm]

She was largely unhandled to “backed” in a couple of weeks by a “professional” - I think that speaks for itself however…

Lots of people, especially old school, will back a quiet horse quickly. I've done 2 unhandled to backed, one in 2 weeks, the other in a week. Both good to ride away. The time isn't relevant if the horse is happy. I get that you think it was rushed, but unless you knew the horse before and know what its demeanour was, then you really can't tell from the time it took to back them whether that is responsible for the behaviour now. Sellers will always find excuses to try to get best price for an unrideable project. ETA Cross posted with your explanation at post 19

Can we ask exactly what investigations have been done? Pure curiosity, sorry, I know you only asked about sedation. Please ignore if too intrusive.
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[KittenInTheTree]

Tbh, I'd retire her to the field, and chalk it up as the price of human impatience. But if I absolutely had to try rebacking her, then I wouldn't sedate. I'd have her in long reins, with a thoroughly fit and able person in charge of them, and another such person at either side of her head leading her in hand, in a secure indoor school. If they can't keep up to a horse being ridden at trot, then they aren't fit and able enough to be the ones helping.

And I'd want 100% confirmation from vet first regarding her being physically okay.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

On a fluffier note, has she ever seen other horses being ridden?

 

[dorsetladette]

I inherited a welsh C stallion when my parents dissolved the stud. They had rescued him from a not very good place as a rising 2 yr old. He was terrified of his own shadow. By 7 we had started and stopped the backing process several times as he was just to frightened of everything (bare in mind this lad had been used at stud but would shutdown when in a showing environment). He would sit down (tuck his bum under like a dog) and run forwards the minute you moved your weight in the saddle and as my mum rode mostly from the seat this became impossible. Vet found nothing, but struggled to examine him properly as he was so reactive to him.

I got the walk work consistent in the school by sitting very still and concentrating on my breathing. We then started walking him out with a handler on a lead rope. Once he was relaxed ding this I hacked him miles and miles in walk and made every ride an adventure as his confidence grew he would be looking to see what was over the brow of the hill or round the next corner. I eventually let him skip into trot of his own choice - (this is terrifying the first time as you do believe your going to die) from here we started trotting up hills while out hacking. His aid to break into trot was a release of the reins/hands and the slightest lean forward from the waist. We eventually did the same for canter. He wasn't ever schooled in an arena after the initial walk work and wasn't shown under saddle until he was 23. He did however turn out to be my horse of a lifetime and taught young children to ride. It takes time and sometime you need to think outside the box.

Good luck with her, but please be careful. I have one at home who I thought I could help, but has turned out to be to 'broken' to be safe to have some one onboard.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Mental trauma is a very real issue for some horses and the reactions described sounds like trauma reactions. So while I take everyone's point about the possibility of pain, there are also some horses for whom this reactivity is not physical but is a fight/flight reaction triggered too easily. I don't like the term behavioural (whether for kids or horses), All behaviour is, by definition, behavioural! But there is a silent 'just' before the word which invalidates the huge difficulty the horses are having, leading to 'ride through' attitudes on horses. There is no hint of that with the OP who accepts the horse is just trying to survive/cope.

It is hard to change horses who have become highly reactive through trauma, but not impossible. I don't have the skills but if you do, and are willing to take the time, I'd not write the horse off just yet.

 

[Snowfilly]

As an aside, if you do go down the sedation route, do not put your feet in the irons, have split reins or unbuckle them so she can’t get a leg through if she crashes down and have her somewhere with a soft surface in case the worst happens. Also have a rubber bit if you can so there’s less metal to smack around in her mouth if she does fall.

Brain fried ones can be fixed, but like YCBM says, sometimes they are just broken and if I had a penny for every horse I knew that a vet had passed as sound which turned out to be damaged in some way, I would be able to afford a non broken one!

 

[twiggy2]

Just a couple of personal thoughts, inever quite understand why it is so important that each individual horse is ridden at the risk of sigbificant i jury to horse and rider, if the horse is truey bolting can it drop a shoulder at the same time? Surely a true bolt means the horse is in such a panic its not thinking about what its doing?
if the horse has been so mentally messed up just by being backed then i qould not be breeding frin it and i wouldnt if it was a physical issue either, again qhy woukd you? There are so many unwanted or poorly backed, handled and cared for horses out there why add more for the sake of it?
I wont sedate to load let alone ride, its too dangerous for horse and rider/ handler.

 

[twiggy2]

Mental trauma is a very real issue for some horses and the reactions described sounds like trauma reactions. So while I take everyone's point about the possibility of pain, there are also some horses for whom this reactivity is not physical but is a fight/flight reaction triggered too easily. I don't like the term behavioural (whether for kids or horses), All behaviour is, by definition, behavioural! But there is a silent 'just' before the word which invalidates the huge difficulty the horses are having, leading to 'ride through' attitudes on horses. There is no hint of that with the OP who accepts the horse is just trying to survive/cope.

It is hard to change horses who have become highly reactive through trauma, but not impossible. I don't have the skills but if you do, and are willing to take the time, I'd not write the horse off just yet.

I do agree but i also feel horses that step over into full blown panic so easily (obviously it exiwts in all of them) are probably best left unbacked for the safety of themselves and all their potential future riders.

 

[southerncomfort]

Personally, and this is just my personal view...

As I've got older I've come round to the view that if a horse finds being ridden so frightening and traumatic, then just leave it be.

If you've done everything you can to help the horse accept a rider, and it's still terrified (and make no mistake, if she's running then her survival instincts have kicked in), then I'm just not sure how ethical it is to keep forcing the issue.

Some can get past a backing gone wrong, some never do sadly.

ETA no, I would not sedate a horse to ride it.

 

[Barklands]

Lots of people, especially old school, will back a quiet horse quickly. I've done 2 unhandled to backed, one in 2 weeks, the other in a week. Both good to ride away. The time isn't relevant if the horse is happy. I get that you think it was rushed, but unless you knew the horse before and know what its demeanour was, then you really can't tell from the time it took to back them whether that is responsible for the behaviour now. Sellers will always find excuses to try to get best price for an unrideable project. ETA Cross posted with your explanation at post 19

Can we ask exactly what investigations have been done? Pure curiosity, sorry, I know you only asked about sedation. Please ignore if too intrusive.
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Sellers were very honest and frank and explained that she was nervous from when they first rode her at the professionals. I have videos of her being ridden away at the beginning - head strapped down with a very tight martingale and very stressed, being booted every stride. Throughly unpleasant to watch, I really feel for her. I can’t describe it but once she’s going and gets past that initial panic I can almost feel her breathe a sigh of relief and enjoy it! Once she’s going she’s happy in the contact, nice and forward with back and tail swinging it’s just that initial hurdle!

From memory she had back, neck, various areas on limbs including hocks, SI and feet x-rayed. My vet has seen and agreed. She was lunged on gravel, flexion tests etc. They didn’t do any nerve blocking etc as there was just no evidence of anything to warrant it. She hasn’t had any formal bute trial but I have ridden her on bute and no difference.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I have absolutely no idea about horses but in kids, there are some examples of using mild sedation to alllow you to begin exposure work. There are some pretty good options that allow a child to be conscious, aware and able to manage themselevs behaviourally, but it just takes the edge off the reactivoty so you can do the graded exposure work - which is the bit that then allows the child (horse) to reappraise threat levels and learn that the danger is lower than they had assumed. This adaptive reaction is brain based - you don't learn to cope with fear - you just stop being afraid. And all prey animals have this adaptive response - in the wild they run from threat or ambiguous cues, but quickly learn to re-categorise some cues as benign. If they could not do this, they would run from too many things, get exhausted and not survive. So in theory it makes sense - not as a solution in itself, but to allow the work that WILL make the difference to happen. BUt thay's kids! Who can consent and understad what ishappening. As I said I don't know about horses.