A controversial one…

[Rowreach]

I find it very interesting how one school of thought opts for a round pen and the other out hacking or in the open. We are very lucky and we do have access to large enclosed fields but have been working in the arena with her thus far.

I am definitely inclined to agree and think if nothing else a change of scenery would do her the world of good. In an ideal world with no cars I would have her hacking in walk up the lane sandwiched between two of our other horses but I would not like to risk her on the lanes given her history.

Humans like enclosed spaces because they feel safer in the same way they like jumping cross poles because they think they are small.

Horses don’t think like humans and I’ve found that trying to “be more horse” is the key to many things.

Horses that are damaged for life by one bad experience do exist, of course they do. But equally there are physical issues that can only ever be identified by autopsy, so I wouldn’t rule either out.

But if I really veered towards behavioural, then no way would I be working her in an arena

 

[stormox]

I used to know a dealer who did a lot of breaking use Sedalin in small doses when young horses first went hunting or to shows to stop them getting over excited. Only a small amount which wore off in a couple of hours but just stopped them getting too ridiculous at first.
I suppose anything is worth a try, it's unlikely to kill her and might just work....

 

[ihatework]

I used to know a dealer who did a lot of breaking use Sedalin in small doses when young horses first went hunting or to shows to stop them getting over excited. Only a small amount which wore off in a couple of hours but just stopped them getting too ridiculous at first.
I suppose anything is worth a try, it's unlikely to kill her and might just work....

I appreciate you are just recounting a story - but this kind of thing makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall.
Why oh why can't people just invest the time to gradually expose horses to stuff so that they don't need to routinely sedate the poor buggers

 

[maya2008]

Just a thought, but our Welsh A gelding started randomly spooking and running towards the end of last winter. We popped him on Mag ox as a trial just to see if it would help. Perfectly normal pony behaviour resumed shortly after. Added it to feral cob’s diet and it helped her be less ridiculously over reactive and more able to process.

It’s not a magic cure but might help?

I have a thread in competing and training about our traumatised Welsh D. We tracked her issues down to a specific trigger, identified how we were triggering her and went from there. She’ll never be ‘normal’ and I could never sell her, but with understanding of her quirks she’s now a much adored pony who my son loves riding.

 

[Barklands]

IMO there are two routes for this - training or veterinary. (Ideally both.)

Groundwork - what exactly have you done? My recommendation would be to start on something like the TRT programme. These do so much groundwork that the horse is more than prepared for work under saddle. IMO the "normal" methods of lunging and long reining don't really help prepare a horse to be ridden.

Has the saddle been fitted correctly? I'd always advise a second opinion. A fresh set of eyes can often reveal an issue.

Veterinary - there is more than likely something going on, obvious or not. (I have a shoulder issue, that it hurts when I do certain things. No doctor can find the cause of the issue.) I'd start off with getting someone like Rob Jackson out to have a look. He can find things that others can't. Otherwise, if you have the money to spend, a trip to the vets. Scope for ulcers would be a starting point, and checking for KS as a minimum.

Re groundwork we have used methods similar to TRT but not exactly the same. She has been taught to disengage the hindquarters, lower her head and change her whole posture. As a result she is so brilliant on the ground now, it’s like night and day.

She has also been taught to self park at the mounting block and she wouldn’t even step near it before and this has proved very helpful.

Saddle has been fitted and is well fitting, luckily she is quite straight forward to fit unlike some of our others! I know previous owners were slightly dubious about the saddle they had on her and I would be inclined to agree from the videos I have seen of her.

I have spoken to my vet re ulcers but she just does not show any other signs, no issues with rugging, girthing, no issues on palpating, she is a very good eater, she is in fabulous condition. She has no issues picking up canter and will even do so under saddle once she has got through the initial nerves.

Ulcers is something I am very conscious of particularly as I have re-trained racehorses. As a prevention she is fed chaff before riding, fed pro-biotics and always has ad-lib forage as do all of mine. Obviously she could be scoped down the line but with and her known history it is very unlikely to be that in my mind.

 

[Barklands]

Just a thought, but our Welsh A gelding started randomly spooking and running towards the end of last winter. We popped him on Mag ox as a trial just to see if it would help. Perfectly normal pony behaviour resumed shortly after. Added it to feral cob’s diet and it helped her be less ridiculously over reactive and more able to process.

It’s not a magic cure but might help?

I have a thread in competing and training about our traumatised Welsh D. We tracked her issues down to a specific trigger, identified how we were triggering her and went from there. She’ll never be ‘normal’ and I could never sell her, but with understanding of her quirks she’s now a much adored pony who my son loves riding.

She is already fed Mag ox! I will take a look at your thread

 

[Barklands]

I appreciate you are just recounting a story - but this kind of thing makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall.
Why oh why can't people just invest the time to gradually expose horses to stuff so that they don't need to routinely sedate the poor buggers

I certainly would not take a young horse hunting who had been given Sedalin… or any horse given Sedalin hunting for that matter! Recipe for disaster!

 

[stormox]

I certainly would not take a young horse hunting who had been given Sedalin… or any horse given Sedalin hunting for that matter! Recipe for disaster!

No one is asking you to. I never have! But some horses get very OTT and dangerous with adrenalin, you can't fight it so rather than get people hurt a small dose was used to take the edge off.
Was it really such an awful thing to do?

 

[dorsetladette]

This sounds exactly the same!! She will tense her neck and scoot her bum underneath her!

Very interesting. I had someone leading us yesterday after an explosion and that helped a little so your post gives me a bit of hope. The funny thing is as difficult as she is to begin with once she relaxes and works with me the feeling she gives is incredible so I believe she is horse of a lifetime material if she can just get over this first hurdle!

This has given me a little bit of hope so thank you but yes it’s a fine line at the moment and obviously don’t want to risk my neck!

Please be careful.

On another note I rode him in a felt saddle (very old and a bit chewed by mice, bit like a shetland pony pad) as it seemed to suit him better than a traditional saddle (we only really owned quarter panel showing saddles) and saddle fitters were pretty much unheard of unless you were buying something made to measure (in my circles anyway). The squeak/creek of the saddle as you moved forward to prepare to trot could have been enough to set my lad off. But also it the pressure from the saddle changed when you lent forward to compensate for the inevitable shoot forwarded could also have been the issue with him. He also would freak out from having your leg on his sides at first, but I think that is from my mum using her seat and leg at the same time and him freaking from the weight movement in the saddle.

If she is good with mounting etc and it is the transition that freaks her out you might have to forget about going any faster than walk for a while until she is super confident with carrying a rider. Then maybe have a horse to follow when you do decide to try a trot, but rather than push into trot let her follow the other horse into trot - like its her idea, and you just go with it the first few times by giving with your hand to allow her to move forwards. Obviously you'll need something that's OK with having her run into their bottoms etc in case things don't go smoothly. Maybe just a couple of strides at first to 'catch up' in the school or something so more of jog the first time. Almost like the rider is a secondary thought in her want to move forwards more quickly if that makes sense.

But I do think your immediate future will probably need to be just walk. But trying to make this as useful for future riding as possible so neither of you get bored. Over things, round things etc etc.

FYI - the broken one at home relaxed well with global herbs super calm - after about 3 weeks on it it seemed like he'd taken a deep breath and dropped his shoulders down.

My over ruling worry for anyone with reactive ponies is both horse and rider getting hurt so please please don't do anything if you feel it is out of her comfort zone even if it takes what feels like forever.

 

[Barklands]

No one is asking you to. I never have! But some horses get very OTT and dangerous with adrenalin, you can't fight it so rather than get people hurt a small dose was used to take the edge off.
Was it really such an awful thing to do?

Wasn’t saying they were! I think a light dose of a sedative to work through a training issue of just walking and trotting a little at home is one thing - and not something I am entirely convinced in any event due to the risks involved, hence why I created this thread.

However, sedalin is known to cause horses to lose coordination and stumble. So IMO taking horses out onto a hunting field to gallop and jump solid fences is irresponsible and utterly dangerous in my book. Not only that but it is a banned substance so shouldn’t be used for shows in any event.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I'm struggling with your reluctance to accept that this horse may be in pain.

I'm sruggling with the assumption it MUST be. For what it's worth the reaction sounds more like fear than pain to me: And yes I know it could be trigger stacking but we have:

- A known traumatic history
- A horse who arrived generally reactive even when not doing anything that should hurt, and has got calmer over time
- A horse who reacts predictably to a triggering situation and is fine in other situations likely to be equally painful if it were pain
- A horse who, if they they get past that, then relaxes and works well
- A horse who has been well investigated and declared fit and sound by a vet
- A horse with what appears to be an open minded thoughtful owner who has considered pain and decided it is not likely to be that.

I am very quick to think pain. None of those in isolation rules out pain. But to me it looks like trauma/fear is a perfectly reasonable explanation and other approaches designed to address fear/trauma are threfore reasonable to try. Things are not always pain.

 

[Barklands]

Please be careful.

On another note I rode him in a felt saddle (very old and a bit chewed by mice, bit like a shetland pony pad) as it seemed to suit him better than a traditional saddle (we only really owned quarter panel showing saddles) and saddle fitters were pretty much unheard of unless you were buying something made to measure (in my circles anyway). The squeak/creek of the saddle as you moved forward to prepare to trot could have been enough to set my lad off. But also it the pressure from the saddle changed when you lent forward to compensate for the inevitable shoot forwarded could also have been the issue with him. He also would freak out from having your leg on his sides at first, but I think that is from my mum using her seat and leg at the same time and him freaking from the weight movement in the saddle.

If she is good with mounting etc and it is the transition that freaks her out you might have to forget about going any faster than walk for a while until she is super confident with carrying a rider. Then maybe have a horse to follow when you do decide to try a trot, but rather than push into trot let her follow the other horse into trot - like its her idea, and you just go with it the first few times by giving with your hand to allow her to move forwards. Obviously you'll need something that's OK with having her run into their bottoms etc in case things don't go smoothly. Maybe just a couple of strides at first to 'catch up' in the school or something so more of jog the first time. Almost like the rider is a secondary thought in her want to move forwards more quickly if that makes sense.

But I do think your immediate future will probably need to be just walk. But trying to make this as useful for future riding as possible so neither of you get bored. Over things, round things etc etc.

FYI - the broken one at home relaxed well with global herbs super calm - after about 3 weeks on it it seemed like he'd taken a deep breath and dropped his shoulders down.

My over ruling worry for anyone with reactive ponies is both horse and rider getting hurt so please please don't do anything if you feel it is out of her comfort zone even if it takes what feels like forever.

Totally and utterly agree. And very interesting that you mention a squeaky saddle! As whilst it is well fitting it is also very squeaky! And so a small voice in my head had been wondering whether this may be aggravating the issue!

I have been getting her used to walking over poles on the ground so this may come in very handy. I think a couple of months of mooching around in walk and following others is definitely on the cards!

 

[Lucky Snowball]

Lots of very good thoughts and ideas. I would select what appeals and fits your situation. Have a plan and monitor improvement or otherwise. If no better after x weeks or sessions then change the plan. I’d be expecting many months or even years to fix or diagnose this. Good luck.

 

[Lucky Snowball]

Write the plan down and keep a diary.

 

[dorsetladette]

I'm sruggling with the assumption it MUST be. For what it's worth the reaction sounds more like fear than pain to me: And yes I know it could be trigger stacking but we have:

- A known traumatic history
- A horse who arrived generally reactive even when not doing anything that should hurt, and has got calmer over time
- A horse who reacts predictably to a triggering situation and is fine in other situations likely to be equally painful if it were pain
- A horse who, if they they get past that, then relaxes and works well
- A horse who has been well investigated and declared fit and sound by a vet
- A horse with what appears to be an open minded thoughtful owner who has considered pain and decided it is not likely to be that.

I am very quick to think pain. None of those in isolation rules out pain. But to me it looks like trauma/fear is a perfectly reasonable explanation and other approaches designed to address fear/trauma are threfore reasonable to try. Things are not always pain.

Exactly this and then if another behaviour appears or the reaction happens to a different experience then re look at the potential pain theory.

 

[stormox]

Wasn’t saying they were! I think a light dose of a sedative to work through a training issue of just walking and trotting a little at home is one thing - and not something I am entirely convinced in any event due to the risks involved, hence why I created this thread.

However, sedalin is known to cause horses to lose coordination and stumble. So IMO taking horses out onto a hunting field to gallop and jump solid fences is irresponsible and utterly dangerous in my book. Not only that but it is a banned substance so shouldn’t be used for shows in any event.

I don't think they galloped and jumped solid fences, more tiddled around at the back of the field. People used to have common sense in those days, you know!!
Also shows weren't entered, many horses were just taken along "to get used to the atmosphere". No cheating involved!!

 

[Follysmum]

Others may disagree but I personally wouldn’t sedate.
After witnessing someone riding a slightly sedated problem horse who fell, rider and horse injured quite badly.

 

[paddi22]

I had a rescue in years ago with with a similar reaction going into trot. A neighbour recommended riding her in a marshy bog off the track in forestry. she sunk down about half a foot into the marshy ground, and it stopped her being able to buck or run off. The trees and branches were really close around stopped her blindly running and being able to really do much at all apart from go forward. she had to watch every step and navigate herself forward. I rode her twice for long stretches in this environment and it totally got rid of the issue. we had to work as a partnership to navigate through the woods. when she was tired and calm, id take her up the hill in the forestry tracks and ask for trot. the hill was steep so she could run but it was only forward and up a steep hill so if she tried she'd tire very quick. I just kept asking her for transitions to trot that gradually got quieter and calmer. after a few days of that we were grand. she still needed a lot of trot transition schooling to stop rushing when we hit the arena, but the danger level had gone. but I was lucky to have that environment close by which made it easier

it just seems to break the pattern of 'trot/panic/run that she had come with. now we work with a natural horseman guy and he fixed another horse with the same issue by using various technique. one of them was strapping up one of the front legs for a short period and making the horse kind of hop a circle. it made the horse has to stop and process its leg movements and not just blindly rush forward. horse was a different horse after it. I wouldn't know how to do it myself but he was amazing and it definitely changed horses mindset

 

[stormox]

I had a rescue in years ago with with a similar reaction going into trot. A neighbour recommended riding her in a marshy bog off the track in forestry. she sunk down about half a foot into the marshy ground, and it stopped her being able to buck or run off. The trees and branches were really close around stopped her blindly running and being able to really do much at all apart from go forward. she had to watch every step and navigate herself forward. I rode her twice for long stretches in this environment and it totally got rid of the issue. we had to work as a partnership to navigate through the woods. when she was tired and calm, id take her up the hill in the forestry tracks and ask for trot. the hill was steep so she could run but it was only forward and up a steep hill so if she tried she'd tire very quick. I just kept asking her for transitions to trot that gradually got quieter and calmer. after a few days of that we were grand. she still needed a lot of trot transition schooling to stop rushing when we hit the arena, but the danger level had gone. but I was lucky to have that environment close by which made it easier

it just seems to break the pattern of 'trot/panic/run that she had come with. now we work with a natural horseman guy and he fixed another horse with the same issue by using various technique. one of them was strapping up one of the front legs for a short period and making the horse kind of hop a circle. it made the horse has to stop and process its leg movements and not just blindly rush forward. horse was a different horse after it. I wouldn't know how to do it myself but he was amazing and it definitely changed horses mindset

Yes, the 'tie up a front leg with a stirrup leather' was done when I was young too, on lunge and ridden. And also riding round a ploughed field.
They make the horse go into logical mindset, not reactive one.

 

[southerncomfort]

So if the horse is not actually bolting but scooting forwards, that's a completely different scenario and I wouldn't write her off just yet.

If it were me, I'd give her 2 or 3 weeks out in the field to chill out a bit and in the meantime I'd have my own vet check her over.

Then, since something clearly upset set her during the backing process, I'd start again, do it properly and very slowly! You'll gain nothing by keep ploughing on and treating her like an established riding horse, so start the backing from scratch.

Groundwork, long reining and lots and lots of in hand hacks. Keep sessions short and aim to stop on a good note and before she gets tense.

When she's ready to be sat on, I'd do just that...get on, give her a treat, get off, then give a nice feed or pop her out in the field with her friends. You need to help her associate the process with nice things that make her feel good.

Then get on, establish left and right flexion, get off etc.

When she's ready to move off, I'd use a flexion and ask her to step on to a circle rather than a straight line, then she can't get up a head of steam. One or two steps, fuss, treat, get off.

I know it sounds laborious but you can build up to a couple of sessions a day. It really, really is worth taking your time, work out what it is that's worrying her and break everything down in to bite size lessons.

Paddi has some good ideas about reintroducing trot above!

 

[vhf]

This sounds exactly the same!! She will tense her neck and scoot her bum underneath her!

Very interesting. I had someone leading us yesterday after an explosion and that helped a little so your post gives me a bit of hope. The funny thing is as difficult as she is to begin with once she relaxes and works with me the feeling she gives is incredible so I believe she is horse of a lifetime material if she can just get over this first hurdle!

This has given me a little bit of hope so thank you but yes it’s a fine line at the moment and obviously don’t want to risk my neck!

Have you tried leading off another horse? (If you've got one solid enough). I've known this work. I've also used fairly high doses of valerian for one overcoming a significant trauma, but that was a very known situation and carefully managed timeline (horse never appeared remotely 'doped' either). Having had one react very angrily to sedalin, I'd check it out carefully before considering that!!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Yes, the 'tie up a front leg with a stirrup leather' was done when I was young too, on lunge and ridden. And also riding round a ploughed field.
They make the horse go into logical mindset, not reactive one.

Do people still use this method? Have you seen it go wrong? Genuine questions from someone who would not in a million years suggest doing this to any horse under any circumstances other than holding a leg up to enable treatment or farriery of course. I truly believed this outdated method was relegated to history. Perhaps it isn't.

 

[Barklands]

Do people still use this method? Have you seen it go wrong? Genuine questions from someone who would not in a million years suggest doing this to any horse under any circumstances other than holding a leg up to enable treatment or farriery of course. I truly believed this outdated method was relegated to history. Perhaps it isn't.

If I am reading this correctly it sounds like hobbling a horse? Seems to be still very common in the US. I can see how it would have its place to stop a horse from panicking if its foot was caught etc. but certainly wouldn’t be inclined to try it myself for fear of it going wrong!

 

[ihatework]

Do people still use this method? Have you seen it go wrong? Genuine questions from someone who would not in a million years suggest doing this to any horse under any circumstances other than holding a leg up to enable treatment or farriery of course. I truly believed this outdated method was relegated to history. Perhaps it isn't.

This sort of post (the advice rather than yours Mrs J) scares the beejesus out of me.
And it's not because I'm a serial hippy bunny hugger (because I'm definitely not) and it's also not because I don't think that some old fashioned practices don't have merit.

It freaks me out because it's presented in a nonchalant way to a wide audience, and the nuance of how and when it may be beneficial to apply and who does the applying is completely lost. A well meaning but ignorant reader could then go and try it out ...

Thankfully I think the OP sounds intelligent enough to decide what is and isn't worth thinking about or trying.

 

[bubsqueaks]

Following a bad experience backing we sent our pony away to a professional yard where they did use small amount of sedative to overcome his initial tension to take the edge off & it was approved by the Vet.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I appreciate you are just recounting a story - but this kind of thing makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall.
Why oh why can't people just invest the time to gradually expose horses to stuff so that they don't need to routinely sedate the poor buggers

Agree it is bloody dangerous just a few mls of sedalin can knock some horses right out.

It's not always size relevant either my 16.3 warmblood would look knocked out after a few mls yet the 15h Arab looked like he has had nothing.

You couldn't ever get me on a sedated horse it's bad enough being on the ground with one at times.

 

[nutjob]

I'd like to add, when my horse was sedated for evaluation at the vets he still demonstrated the same behaviour that I was having trouble with (spook, spin, series of massive bucks, run off) it was just moderated, slower and less severe so that the rider could stay on and get him back under control so that she could actually ride him and feel what I had been describing about the lack of power and inability to push from the hind end.

He had trotted up sound and was sound lunging on hard and soft surfaces. However, I'd owned him 3 years by then and had been riding him for 2 so for him it was a total change in his behaviour. After blocking the hind suspensories and scanning it was apparent he was in a bad way and I never rode him again.

The point is, the light sedation didn't over rule the pain, it just dulled the response.

Agree it is bloody dangerous just a few mls of sedalin can knock some horses right out.

It's not always size relevant either my 16.3 warmblood would look knocked out after a few mls yet the 15h Arab looked like he has had nothing.

My 600kg hw cob had a warning in his vet notes about sedation after nearly falling over on top of a vet. He was only given the same as the average shetland. Not the horse I mention above.

 

[ihatework]

I'd like to add, when my horse was sedated for evaluation at the vets he still demonstrated the same behaviour that I was having trouble with (spook, spin, series of massive bucks, run off) it was just moderated, slower and less severe so that the rider could stay on and get him back under control so that she could actually ride him and feel what I had been describing about the lack of power and inability to push from the hind end.

He had trotted up sound and was sound lunging on hard and soft surfaces. However, I'd owned him 3 years by then and had been riding him for 2 so for him it was a total change in his behaviour. After blocking the hind suspensories and scanning it was apparent he was in a bad way and I never rode him again.

The point is, the light sedation didn't over rule the pain, it just dulled the response.


My 600kg hw cob had a warning in his vet notes about sedation after nearly falling over on top of a vet. He was only given the same as the average shetland. Not the horse I mention above.

I have actually seen an incidence of a lightly sedated horse at the vets who showed a mild lameness under the sedation, but not when they were un-sedated. Presumably a level of pain stress/adrenalin masked the subtlety of it

 

[WelshD]

I've had a few who either didn't react to Sedalin or reacted badly, I would be more inclined to try valerian

I know you have advice coming at you from all angles here but I bought my pony as a 'bolter' with warnings given by several people. At a walk he would go quite happily on the buckle but every upward transition would make him at best scoot forward with his bum tucked under and tail clamped and at worst send him straight in to an uncontrolled gallop.

It turned out he had ulcers, there were no signs apart from the rushing forwards - no issues with him on the ground, no tacking up problems, no clues in his physical appearance nothing - so it wasn't our first go-to when investigating

A course of medication later and we had a different pony, this was an 11 year old pony that had been in and out of producers yards, turned away again and again due to his behaviour he had never amounted to much and we almost stumbled on the issue by chance

He went on to become a child's absolute dream once in a lifetime pony

BUT due to his history I will never sell him, he has had a couple of good loan homes and is now back with that child (now a teen) and will likely stay there for the rest of his life

 

[stormox]

Do people still use this method? Have you seen it go wrong? Genuine questions from someone who would not in a million years suggest doing this to any horse under any circumstances other than holding a leg up to enable treatment or farriery of course. I truly believed this outdated method was relegated to history. Perhaps it isn't.

I have never heard of anyone using it recently. This was in the early 60s and by an old horse dealer who's dad was a dealer in WW1
The chap who used light sedation before hunting a flighty younster was later, 1990s.