Rowreach
👀
All the above, and in an enclosed arena, so that when the behaviour is triggered, it can't "escape".
A controversial one…
- Thread starter Barklands
- Start date
Backtoblack
Well-Known Member
Why are you bothering to ride this mare? If she's good to handle on the ground she could live life as a pasture ornament. She sounds very unsafe ridden.
KC31
Member
One of mine was very nervous and sharp to ride. I got some Relaquine from the vet, only gave a very small amount and the difference it made was quite unbelievable. I have ridden them with Sedalin and it was horrid and ACP which made no difference whatsover (used to work on big dealing yards and it was very common then). What also helped my boy was lots and lots of groundwork alongside the ridden work. My boy had had a very harsh backing and it caused him to be super tense when he had a rider on board. Good luck.
Barklands
Well-Known Member
She wasn’t good to handle until we put the work in and she became good to handle. Just like she isn’t good to ride currently but I believe could be with enough time and effort.
It is my personal belief that if a horse can be ridden they should be, rather than being relegated to being a field ornament at the first sign of trouble. They do not have 1000s of acres to keep them fit and mobile as they do in the wild. Horses are designed to move about and keep fit. Whilst my horses are luckier than some and are turned out every day over very decent sized turnout I believe in keeping them ridden for their musculature and joint health.
I am “bothering” because I care a great deal about the mare and once she is working she seems to genuinely enjoy it.
lialls
Well-Known Member
Look outside the box, yes you may have to go back a few steps but it'll be worth it if you can ride her in the end.
Lead her out inhand, take her inhand on the routes that you will ride her on, trot her up inhand while out.
Longrein her out, with/without someone leading her initially and build up to doing the full route without someone leading her, include trot in this.
Lead her off another horse, build up to including trot in this too.
If you make some progress and then she has a wobble go back to the start, take the pressure off.
Untill she can do all of that calmly I wouldn't try and ride her though it. Personally I think that it's pain related, has she been checked for ulcers? or even Wobblers? That can produce an explosive reaction.
Definitely look up Sophie Seymore and Miri Hackett on social media, both have great results with misunderstood behaviors.
Lead her out inhand, take her inhand on the routes that you will ride her on, trot her up inhand while out.
Longrein her out, with/without someone leading her initially and build up to doing the full route without someone leading her, include trot in this.
Lead her off another horse, build up to including trot in this too.
If you make some progress and then she has a wobble go back to the start, take the pressure off.
Untill she can do all of that calmly I wouldn't try and ride her though it. Personally I think that it's pain related, has she been checked for ulcers? or even Wobblers? That can produce an explosive reaction.
Definitely look up Sophie Seymore and Miri Hackett on social media, both have great results with misunderstood behaviors.
Flame_
Well-Known Member
A few thoughts this thread has inspired.
1) I'm reminded of going to a hunt meet as a teenager when one chap was quite tickled by the fact that he had perhaps "overdone" the ACP as horse could barely lift it's head or open its eyes.
2) I hate hearing "if it didn't keep going for at least 5 miles, over ten hedges, through a few fences and across both sides of a motorway it wasn't really bolting...." If the horse runs away in panic, fast and uncontrollably, rendering your aids totally ineffective for more than a brief few strides, you've a serious problem and in my world the word for it would be bolting!
3) I had a horse with a very similar problem, I did learn to ride her with the help of a very good professional, then worked out that I no longer actually wanted to since she couldn't be trusted not to f-off should the urge overcome her.
4) I wonder how many horses have this exact issue (panic at riding away stage) and totally get past it to become comfortable and accepting of being a riding horse and how many are given up on.
1) I'm reminded of going to a hunt meet as a teenager when one chap was quite tickled by the fact that he had perhaps "overdone" the ACP as horse could barely lift it's head or open its eyes.
2) I hate hearing "if it didn't keep going for at least 5 miles, over ten hedges, through a few fences and across both sides of a motorway it wasn't really bolting...." If the horse runs away in panic, fast and uncontrollably, rendering your aids totally ineffective for more than a brief few strides, you've a serious problem and in my world the word for it would be bolting!
3) I had a horse with a very similar problem, I did learn to ride her with the help of a very good professional, then worked out that I no longer actually wanted to since she couldn't be trusted not to f-off should the urge overcome her.
4) I wonder how many horses have this exact issue (panic at riding away stage) and totally get past it to become comfortable and accepting of being a riding horse and how many are given up on.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I wouldn't ride a bolter in an open space but it now appears the horse is a scooter not a bolter. The problem is that if the behaviour is definitely only behavioural then the rider absolutely has to stay on if/when she does it again, so for now I'd do what can humanely be done to make that happen, but sedation wouldn't, for me, be in that list.
I had, I think wrongly, assumed that ulcers had been ruled out. Since the problem occurs on a transition, then they probably should be.
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I had, I think wrongly, assumed that ulcers had been ruled out. Since the problem occurs on a transition, then they probably should be.
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Barklands
Well-Known Member
Re 2) absolutely! I think people get too hung up on the vocabulary! In fact I retrained an ex racer a couple of years ago that very much was a bolter with the above description every time his little feet touched grass. He was actually easier than this mare as I could just leave him alone and let him run until he came back to me and he sharp learnt it was much easier not to! Yet he was more a “true” bolter as some would describe.
KittenInTheTree
Well-Known Member
My personal belief is that humans ride horses because they want to do so. Beyond that, it's really all only justification and confirmation bias in varying forms.
Barklands
Well-Known Member
Well that’s it, I’m off to release all of mine back into the wild then!
ponynutz
Well-Known Member
Some of my thoughts:
1) I think this horse has a future - that bit where she comes back to you after the initial panic and can be trusted to get over herself and be a nice little horse
2) I would as @ycbm says, rule out ulcers. I've seen ulcers shot down on this thread and then later be discovered accidentally while investigating for something else one too many times to not want to test for them. Similarly if horse does have ulcers I'd be more suspicious of a pain response as another thing I've learnt from this forum is they're not usually an isolated incident (although I guess in this case her previous stressful start could have caused them)
3) I wouldn't sedate but I would continue gaining her trust and persevering. I think the weighted doll could work actually.
4) I think you said neck had been checked but I know of an influencer's horse who had moments of dangerous outbursts similar to this (on ground and under saddle) that turned out to be a neck issue that occasionally struck a nerve and caused an outburst. Your horse's outbursts seem to be too much in a pattern to be that but thought it worthy to mention.
1) I think this horse has a future - that bit where she comes back to you after the initial panic and can be trusted to get over herself and be a nice little horse
2) I would as @ycbm says, rule out ulcers. I've seen ulcers shot down on this thread and then later be discovered accidentally while investigating for something else one too many times to not want to test for them. Similarly if horse does have ulcers I'd be more suspicious of a pain response as another thing I've learnt from this forum is they're not usually an isolated incident (although I guess in this case her previous stressful start could have caused them)
3) I wouldn't sedate but I would continue gaining her trust and persevering. I think the weighted doll could work actually.
4) I think you said neck had been checked but I know of an influencer's horse who had moments of dangerous outbursts similar to this (on ground and under saddle) that turned out to be a neck issue that occasionally struck a nerve and caused an outburst. Your horse's outbursts seem to be too much in a pattern to be that but thought it worthy to mention.
dorsetladette
Well-Known Member
I think about number 4 everytime I look at my 'broken' one in the field. I'd love to show him under saddle.
Bellaboo18
Well-Known Member
I never said it must be or definitely was pain but for the sake of the horse I'd rule it out first.
OP said it definitely was behaviour, we can never know that.
The horse hasn't been scoped, I'd say there's a high chane of ulcers given the history.
Anyway just feeling sorry for the horse and I would personally scope.
Barklands
Well-Known Member
You feel sorry for the horse? Have you met the horse, know me or how responsible I am as an owner? I am acting on veterinary advice not just something I dreamt up.
I am not usually one for snapping back but feel that is rather accusatory and inflammatory.
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
For those that think the terminology is not important, advice if often different depending on what the actual issue is and the wrong terminology means people don't really know what's happening so can't offer appropriate advice.
For example for a true bolter my advice is dont get on it again as the risk of serious injury is too high.
For a horse that's rushing forwards its to rule out pain and then try to take things slower and build up more trust.
For example for a true bolter my advice is dont get on it again as the risk of serious injury is too high.
For a horse that's rushing forwards its to rule out pain and then try to take things slower and build up more trust.
Daiquiri
New User
Relaquine, Sedalin, ACP - they're all the same drug, Acepromazine
Melody Grey
Well-Known Member
It’s a very strange feeling riding horses under sedation- I have done it with my own as a part of lameness / performance work ups at the vets and I find it quite unnerving.
Have you considered doing this under veterinary supervision? I had one on sedivet (I think) at the vets- took the edge off and we were still able to see the issues but he wasn’t explosive.
I’m not sure I’d want to sedate for the situation described, but would rather it be under proper supervision if needs must?
Have you considered doing this under veterinary supervision? I had one on sedivet (I think) at the vets- took the edge off and we were still able to see the issues but he wasn’t explosive.
I’m not sure I’d want to sedate for the situation described, but would rather it be under proper supervision if needs must?
Melody Grey
Well-Known Member
Re: comments about ulcers- some of the worst cases I’ve seen don’t present typically, so I wouldn’t want to write off ulcers without scoping. It’s not a fortune compared to other diagnostic procedures (though admittedly treatment can be). The ‘on edge’ observations and inconsistency of it being some rides and not others suggest it’s worth scoping to me.
Lois Lame
Well-Known Member
I hope her videos go to youtube as I don't do Facebook. I'd love to see them.
Dave's Mam
Well-Known Member
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alexomahony
Well-Known Member
Sorry if i've missed something, but have you done a bute trial to see if this stops the behaviour? I'd rather try that before riding with sedation (I don't think I'd try that anyway)
As others have said above, I'd be thinking about having her scoped or treating as though ulcers were present to see if that makes any change too.
Does this happen on every ride, or just the odd one?
As others have said above, I'd be thinking about having her scoped or treating as though ulcers were present to see if that makes any change too.
Does this happen on every ride, or just the odd one?
shanti
Well-Known Member
I have ridden one of mine sedated before (same thing, lameness work up at vets) and agree that it was not a relaxing or pleasant feeling at all. I certainly wouldn't do it again unless I absolutely had to.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I would definitely be leading this horse from another .
It’s a great thing to do that benefits most horses when they are starting out .
I appreciate the horse has had some veterinary input however having owned a horse who had had considerable good veterinary input and who turned out in end to be very ill I know that pain is at the bottom of most cases like this and completely behavioural based problems are rare .
I would also set a time limit on this give yourself the summer and if you are not making progress by the autumn I would give up the priority is that that people stay safe .
It’s a great thing to do that benefits most horses when they are starting out .
I appreciate the horse has had some veterinary input however having owned a horse who had had considerable good veterinary input and who turned out in end to be very ill I know that pain is at the bottom of most cases like this and completely behavioural based problems are rare .
I would also set a time limit on this give yourself the summer and if you are not making progress by the autumn I would give up the priority is that that people stay safe .
SEL
Well-Known Member
I've ridden on a 1/2 click of sedalin but what put me off ever doing it again was the response my Appy had to it when we tried it for trimming years ago. She literally climbed the walls.
So I wouldn't ride on it now without knowing how the horse would respond.
The low dose was to take the edge off so the vets could get a better idea of lameness without it being masked by adrenaline. I've seen it used on horses being ridden from box rest too.
I'm not here to debate the ethics but if you do go down that route please do a trial run unridden first. My Appy was like an angry drunk and I actually put a body protector on to turn her out so she could stagger around a dry lot she was that dangerous. Vet was there and they'd never seen such a bad reaction but they do know some horses don't calmly sedate with it.
So I wouldn't ride on it now without knowing how the horse would respond.
The low dose was to take the edge off so the vets could get a better idea of lameness without it being masked by adrenaline. I've seen it used on horses being ridden from box rest too.
I'm not here to debate the ethics but if you do go down that route please do a trial run unridden first. My Appy was like an angry drunk and I actually put a body protector on to turn her out so she could stagger around a dry lot she was that dangerous. Vet was there and they'd never seen such a bad reaction but they do know some horses don't calmly sedate with it.
ImmyS
Well-Known Member
Hi OP,
Whilst pain is something to always consider and have in mind - speaking from experience, a horse can be emotionally traumatised and come back from it.
I bought a 4 year old Welsh D part bred. He has been backed and riding away for about 6 months when someone viewing him wearing an air jacket fell and it scared the life out of him. I would imagine he was quite a nervous character anyway prior to that. I bought him and after a few failed attempts of mounting and him panicking we went right back to basics.
I’m not normally one for clicker training/ positive reinforcement with food however for him it was a game changer. And I feel like probably the biggest breakthrough with him was teaching him to side up to the mounting block himself and disengaging the hind quarters with a rider on board.
He was extremely nervous, just leaning forward slightly in the saddle or adjusting your reins would result in utter hysteria and bum scooting.
Once we got really confident with the mounting - as others have suggested we just got hacking and hacking and hacking. And he just grew in confidence.
By our second year together we did everything together and he was the easiest, most fun and reliable horse I had ever ridden/owned. He always had a bit of a nervous disposition and he just needed a sensitive manner when dealing with him but he was awesome and super safe.
Whilst every horse is not ‘fixable’, from personal experience it is possible.
Whilst pain is something to always consider and have in mind - speaking from experience, a horse can be emotionally traumatised and come back from it.
I bought a 4 year old Welsh D part bred. He has been backed and riding away for about 6 months when someone viewing him wearing an air jacket fell and it scared the life out of him. I would imagine he was quite a nervous character anyway prior to that. I bought him and after a few failed attempts of mounting and him panicking we went right back to basics.
I’m not normally one for clicker training/ positive reinforcement with food however for him it was a game changer. And I feel like probably the biggest breakthrough with him was teaching him to side up to the mounting block himself and disengaging the hind quarters with a rider on board.
He was extremely nervous, just leaning forward slightly in the saddle or adjusting your reins would result in utter hysteria and bum scooting.
Once we got really confident with the mounting - as others have suggested we just got hacking and hacking and hacking. And he just grew in confidence.
By our second year together we did everything together and he was the easiest, most fun and reliable horse I had ever ridden/owned. He always had a bit of a nervous disposition and he just needed a sensitive manner when dealing with him but he was awesome and super safe.
Whilst every horse is not ‘fixable’, from personal experience it is possible.
tristars
Well-Known Member
well you know why she is like she is, but still would scope for ulcers
the poor horse had no clue what was expected of it when it was backed, i am so angry on that horses behalf, tying its head down and booting it, and god knows what else they did to it
i think it would be a good idea to try the dummy well strapped on, eventually, after an initial period of two people leading her with the dummy loose so as soon as she looks nervy, stop her, and smoothly slide the dummy off, i would put carrot sticks and polos on the dummy so she takes them off for treats before and after, doing this would need being able to read her and anticipate her every move
i always think bolting is panic where they are not really aware, but dropping the shoulder is learned, a trick
personally i would never attempt to back any unbroken horse without a long and complete progressive course of lunging, long reining, jumping small on the lunge and loose, trotting poles, manners, the backing and riding away is the easy bit, putting the time and sheer effort into the prep is the hard part
you know what they say, `twice to a horse is a habit` a good breaker knows this and aims to make 95 percent of the prep a positive experience for the horse, tangles and mistakes will happen, but mostly make you smile.
perhaps if she has been booted, try from the ground using your arm to give a similar aid where you would place your leg when asking her to walk on from halt so she learns a new `soft `signal for walk on, using an assistant to lead her on
personally i don`t fancy the sedative route, she sounds like she has just learned to shoot off to escape the brutality
someone like michael peace may be able to help
the biggest negative is she seems established in this habit and to keep repeating hoping to ride through it will only make it worse. but you know that, sorry!!!!!!!!!!
hope you will post updates would love to know how you get on
the poor horse had no clue what was expected of it when it was backed, i am so angry on that horses behalf, tying its head down and booting it, and god knows what else they did to it
i think it would be a good idea to try the dummy well strapped on, eventually, after an initial period of two people leading her with the dummy loose so as soon as she looks nervy, stop her, and smoothly slide the dummy off, i would put carrot sticks and polos on the dummy so she takes them off for treats before and after, doing this would need being able to read her and anticipate her every move
i always think bolting is panic where they are not really aware, but dropping the shoulder is learned, a trick
personally i would never attempt to back any unbroken horse without a long and complete progressive course of lunging, long reining, jumping small on the lunge and loose, trotting poles, manners, the backing and riding away is the easy bit, putting the time and sheer effort into the prep is the hard part
you know what they say, `twice to a horse is a habit` a good breaker knows this and aims to make 95 percent of the prep a positive experience for the horse, tangles and mistakes will happen, but mostly make you smile.
perhaps if she has been booted, try from the ground using your arm to give a similar aid where you would place your leg when asking her to walk on from halt so she learns a new `soft `signal for walk on, using an assistant to lead her on
personally i don`t fancy the sedative route, she sounds like she has just learned to shoot off to escape the brutality
someone like michael peace may be able to help
the biggest negative is she seems established in this habit and to keep repeating hoping to ride through it will only make it worse. but you know that, sorry!!!!!!!!!!
hope you will post updates would love to know how you get on
Barklands
Well-Known Member
Very positive to hear - we have also taught to side up to a mounting block, and feel that has certainly helped a lot just still got some distance to go!!
YourValentine
Well-Known Member
OP, may have missed this sorry, is she on any general calmer?
I've found calming cookies help take the edge off exciting outings. Not sedative but give you a moment to try and diffuse the tension rather than straight to boil over.
I agree with other comments that the solution is probably more groundwork etc (assuming no ulcers/pain) but something like calming cookies may help her process the work. Relatively cheap to try anyway.
I've found calming cookies help take the edge off exciting outings. Not sedative but give you a moment to try and diffuse the tension rather than straight to boil over.
I agree with other comments that the solution is probably more groundwork etc (assuming no ulcers/pain) but something like calming cookies may help her process the work. Relatively cheap to try anyway.
Barklands
Well-Known Member
It makes me furious, the breakers were in it for a quick buck - in my book slow and steady wins the race when it comes to breaking, a horse must be set up for success rather than to fail! She has exceptional breeding, conformation and movement so it really is a shame to have such a bad start.
We took her right back to the beginning and she now long reins, lunges (including over poles) beautifully but didn’t have a clue at first so corners were absolutely cut (as you would expect with a horse backed in a couple of weeks!!). Ours are long reined around a five mile hacking route before they are even sat on so I cannot even comprehend!
Absolutely agree, I have given her a few days off this week to rest and process then will get the dummy on this weekend (excellent idea with the treats!). We have used this before for backing our smaller ponies as it is the weight of a little jockey but definitely think it would benefit her too. We have the dummy dressed with boots on so this should get her used to the legs on her sides again too I hope.
Depending on how that goes the next step I think is to climb aboard and pootle around the arena following another but I will let her let me know when she is ready for that.
I am very keen not to give up on this mare as she has shown plenty of signs that she is more than willing to do the job. However, if the above proves too much we will absolutely have a conversation with the vet re more investigations.
I will absolutely keep updated and hopefully it will be a positive outcome!
Barklands
Well-Known Member
She is on magnesium oxide, although I have had positive results with the top spec calmer for other horses so may try that in the coming weeks.
Have to say I am not a fan of the calming cookies, IME they did nothing and I’m sure the packet said they were pumped full of molasses!