A controversial one…

[Barklands]

I inherited a welsh C stallion when my parents dissolved the stud. They had rescued him from a not very good place as a rising 2 yr old. He was terrified of his own shadow. By 7 we had started and stopped the backing process several times as he was just to frightened of everything (bare in mind this lad had been used at stud but would shutdown when in a showing environment). He would sit down (tuck his bum under like a dog) and run forwards the minute you moved your weight in the saddle and as my mum rode mostly from the seat this became impossible. Vet found nothing, but struggled to examine him properly as he was so reactive to him.

I got the walk work consistent in the school by sitting very still and concentrating on my breathing. We then started walking him out with a handler on a lead rope. Once he was relaxed ding this I hacked him miles and miles in walk and made every ride an adventure as his confidence grew he would be looking to see what was over the brow of the hill or round the next corner. I eventually let him skip into trot of his own choice - (this is terrifying the first time as you do believe your going to die) from here we started trotting up hills while out hacking. His aid to break into trot was a release of the reins/hands and the slightest lean forward from the waist. We eventually did the same for canter. He wasn't ever schooled in an arena after the initial walk work and wasn't shown under saddle until he was 23. He did however turn out to be my horse of a lifetime and taught young children to ride. It takes time and sometime you need to think outside the box.

Good luck with her, but please be careful. I have one at home who I thought I could help, but has turned out to be to 'broken' to be safe to have some one onboard.

This sounds exactly the same!! She will tense her neck and scoot her bum underneath her!

Very interesting. I had someone leading us yesterday after an explosion and that helped a little so your post gives me a bit of hope. The funny thing is as difficult as she is to begin with once she relaxes and works with me the feeling she gives is incredible so I believe she is horse of a lifetime material if she can just get over this first hurdle!

This has given me a little bit of hope so thank you but yes it’s a fine line at the moment and obviously don’t want to risk my neck!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I agree with other posters, I would bet my pension this horse has pain issues somewhere. However, it is your horse and your choice to continue without further investigation. I would very strongly advise against sedation.

A horse in intense pain or emotional turmoil can react very badly to situations that trigger that pain or trauma when sedated, and will panic like you have never seen panic set in as it slowly realizes it is unable to react normally (for them)in flight or fight mode as the sedative starts to kick in. You will not remain in the saddle for a nano second if that happens.

Please be very careful.

 

[abb123]

I think I would want a thorough vet investigation by my own vet rather than relying on the previous owners say so.

In my experience, horses that are traumatised by a backing experience show similar behaviour when handled or give big warnings rather than it coming out of nowhere. That screams pain response to me. I'd want to be 100% certain for myself before any other action and to be honest I think even if I got her through it I wouldn't trust a horse with a true bolting response that was not pain related and was good in every other way.

 

[ycbm]

Sellers were very honest and frank and explained that she was nervous from when they first rode her at the professionals. I have videos of her being ridden away at the beginning - head strapped down with a very tight martingale and very stressed, being booted every stride. Throughly unpleasant to watch, I really feel for her. I can’t describe it but once she’s going and gets past that initial panic I can almost feel her breathe a sigh of relief and enjoy it! Once she’s going she’s happy in the contact, nice and forward with back and tail swinging it’s just that initial hurdle!

From memory she had back, neck, various areas on limbs including hocks, SI and feet x-rayed. My vet has seen and agreed. She was lunged on gravel, flexion tests etc. They didn’t do any nerve blocking etc as there was just no evidence of anything to warrant it. She hasn’t had any formal bute trial but I have ridden her on bute and no difference.

Do you have access to a round pen? If I was certain this is just fear, then I would be tempted to try riding her only in a round pen (or maybe on the lunge) until she has worked out that nothing is going to hurt her. If in a round pen, then only on the rein where you will go to the inside if she drops the shoulder (ime they usually have a preferred one).

If you were to start her off riding on the lunge or in a pen, then release her when she's calm, does she stay calm from then on, or could she kick off again? This would make a dodgems to me in whether I could ever trust her.
.

 

[Barklands]

On a fluffier note, has she ever seen other horses being ridden?

We have worked her in the arena at the same time as a very quiet pony being lunged however she tends to want to nap towards her - she isn’t at all nappy or spooky when in the arena on her own. I think she sees the other pony as her comfort blanket as they are the best of friends! However another avenue I think we will try is leading her from a very quiet schoolmaster that we have and then if that goes well let her follow him around the school to build confidence.

 

[Ambers Echo]

A horse in intense pain or emotional turmoil can react very badly to situations that trigger that pain or trauma when sedated, and will panic like you have never seen panic set in as it slowly realizes it is unable to react normally (for them)in flight or fight mode as the sedative starts to kick in. You will not remain in the saddle for a nano second if that happens.

Please be very careful.

That is really interesring because anecdotally sedation in people is the same. Kids who agree to it, know what is happening and why they feel a bit odd, and it helps. But in emergency situations where kids are sedated against their wishes or beyind their understanding, they can fight it and get worse. They appear to feel even more out of control and even more threatened.

 

[lynz88]

Is it just trot? So fine in walk? What happens if she is led from the ground when you go into trot? Is there any difference between sitting and rising, or between asking with leg or voice?

This was my initial thought and does she only do it out alone or does she also do it if out with other horses? What is she like if she has no one on her and is led on the ground?

Just a couple of personal thoughts, inever quite understand why it is so important that each individual horse is ridden at the risk of sigbificant i jury to horse and rider, if the horse is truey bolting can it drop a shoulder at the same time? Surely a true bolt means the horse is in such a panic its not thinking about what its doing?
if the horse has been so mentally messed up just by being backed then i qould not be breeding frin it and i wouldnt if it was a physical issue either, again qhy woukd you? There are so many unwanted or poorly backed, handled and cared for horses out there why add more for the sake of it?
I wont sedate to load let alone ride, its too dangerous for horse and rider/ handler.

I've ridden horses that, as part of the bolt, they drop the shoulder, spin, and take off. Mine has done it a few times and I've never managed to stay on. He doesn't do it often but he's done it enough for me to be aware of his capabilities.

 

[Barklands]

Do you have access to a round pen? If I was certain this is just fear, then I would be tempted to try riding her only in a round pen (or maybe on the lunge) until she has worked out that nothing is going to hurt her. If in a round pen, then only on the rein where you will go to the inside if she drops the shoulder (ime they usually have a preferred one).

If you were to start her off riding on the lunge or in a pen, then release her when she's calm, does she stay calm from then on, or could she kick off again? This would make a dodgems to me in whether I could ever trust her.
.

We don’t but riding on lunge could possibly work - once she’s calm she stays calm!

 

[Bellaboo18]

As I said above it is definitely behavioural.

You've had enough people say it but you can never say it's *definitely* behaviour.
Looks like she's never been scoped for ulcers(?) which are highly likely from her stressy start to life.

 

[Barklands]

This was my initial thought and does she only do it out alone or does she also do it if out with other horses? What is she like if she has no one on her and is led on the ground?

I've ridden horses that, as part of the bolt, they drop the shoulder, spin, and take off. Mine has done it a few times and I've never managed to stay on. He doesn't do it often but he's done it enough for me to be aware of his capabilities.

She will do it with other horses around and alone. Maybe I should clarify that this isn’t every ride! I would say 1 in every 3/4 rides (which obviously still isn’t great odds) - she starts off tense every ride but some days holds it together better than others but when we can work through it she is great and blooms in confidence.

 

[Barklands]

That is really interesring because anecdotally sedation in people is the same. Kids who agree to it, know what is happening and why they feel a bit odd, and it helps. But in emergency situations where kids are sedated against their wishes or beyind their understanding, they can fight it and get worse. They appear to feel even more out of control and even more threatened.

Very interesting. I know that if you sedate a horse who is already in a state of panic they can react worse to the sedation or the sedation just have no effect - I wonder if there is a correlation

 

[Bellaboo18]

She will do it with other horses around and alone. Maybe I should clarify that this isn’t every ride! I would say 1 in every 3/4 rides (which obviously still isn’t great odds) - she starts off tense every ride but some days holds it together better than others but when we can work through it she is great and blooms in confidence.

I'm struggling with your reluctance to accept that this horse may be in pain.

 

[twiggy2]

This was my initial thought and does she only do it out alone or does she also do it if out with other horses? What is she like if she has no one on her and is led on the ground?

I've ridden horses that, as part of the bolt, they drop the shoulder, spin, and take off. Mine has done it a few times and I've never managed to stay on. He doesn't do it often but he's done it enough for me to be aware of his capabilities.

A true bolt is blind panic not running off, the horse will run through or into things rather than jump over or go round so i dont think yours is bolting of its dropping a shoulder and spinning.

 

[lynz88]

I definitely am not describing a "running off" scenario....

 

[Barklands]

I think I would want a thorough vet investigation by my own vet rather than relying on the previous owners say so.

In my experience, horses that are traumatised by a backing experience show similar behaviour when handled or give big warnings rather than it coming out of nowhere. That screams pain response to me. I'd want to be 100% certain for myself before any other action and to be honest I think even if I got her through it I wouldn't trust a horse with a true bolting response that was not pain related and was good in every other way.

Sorry I should have clarified! When we got her she was very tense on the ground in a near constant state of fight or flight, she was rather bolshy on the ground, wouldn’t stand still. Even just to move her tail through the fillet string she would panic and try to bolt.

The more we have handled her and done through ground work she has settled wholesale. She has gone from being very vertical to taking everything in her stride, we have taking her out and about in the box in hand and she will even now fall asleep at a show!

She was very head shy to even put headcollar on, wouldn’t load and couldn’t even touch her legs without her trying to run off. We have had so many breakthroughs with her that this just feels like the final big hurdle.

 

[Barklands]

A true bolt is blind panic not running off, the horse will run through or into things rather than jump over or go round so i dont think yours is bolting of its dropping a shoulder and spinning.

This applies to my mare too. Apologies for the wording, it is not a true bolt with her either rather she will sink down on her hindquarters, run off and turn sharply/drop shoulder

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s hard to advise without knowing what diagnostics the horse had .
I would want to physically see a back X-ray before proceeding any further .

 

[twiggy2]

I would start a new thread then as bolting and rushing off are 2 entirely different things.
If she is rushing off under saddle you are going faster than she can cope with and the level of trust is not good enough for you to push her that far.

 

[Rowreach]

The problem with only ever working excessively reactive horses in an arena or round pen is that you are placing them in the most terrifying environment (an enclosed space) that they can possibly be in. Then add to that, when they do react they are readily able to ditch even a competent rider because they are constantly on a turn/can “drop” a shoulder because they’re turning, and now the horse is even more terrified because they’ve lost the rider.

Now, whether this is behavioural or physical with this particular horse, I have no idea, but with situations where I’ve decided to push on and continue with ridden work, I’ve taken enclosed spaces completely out of the equation, sometimes for a couple of years, and achieved great results.

Yes you need safe off road riding (or failing that, training gallops would work, and a fair amount of confidence, but it can be the making of the horse. And if they do react to anything, you can let them on and forward and they’re less likely to panic, and you don’t have to worry about going round corners and the horse disappearing out from under you.

I actually loathe the way people start horses in enclosed spaces and make them go constantly on the turn instead of getting them out and about in relaxed straight lines. No wonder it screws their minds.

No I wouldn’t sedate to ride.

 

[ihatework]

My general thoughts given that you already identify it as controversial and you seem to be presenting your position thoughtfully.

1. I personally wouldn't ride the horse under medical sedation, I've done it before and hated the feeling it gave me on what what a behaviourally pretty level horse, so I wouldn't want to be on one prone to more extreme triggered behaviour.
2. If I were heavily invested in a horse and time/patience/training weren't overcoming the issue, I may consider sedation as a last ditched attempt, but it wouldn't be me sat on the horse and it would need to be a fully insured pro who was on board with the approach.
3. Horses respond to sedation very differently, if you do go this route, start very low dosage and monitor carefully
4. I know you say the horse is not in pain and it does sound like a fair bit has been done to rule it out, but please don't completely rule it out. Keep it in back of mind and continually re-evalute the situation.

From what I am reading, the horse seems to take confidence from ground handlers, and after triggered seems to settle and start to show some reasonable work? If so, I personally don't think you are at the last ditch sedation stage. I think there is a lot you can be doing to continue to desensitise the fear reaction and I think the bulk of this will be short sessions, with trusted handlers attached to the horse. You also need a very sticky jockey, if it does get triggered then they need to stay on.

One thing I have used successfully in the past is valerian tincture

 

[ihatework]

She will do it with other horses around and alone. Maybe I should clarify that this isn’t every ride! I would say 1 in every 3/4 rides (which obviously still isn’t great odds) - she starts off tense every ride but some days holds it together better than others but when we can work through it she is great and blooms in confidence.

Have you got a solid nanny you could pony her off - slip lead (not on the bit, noseband or similar best) - straight lines, ideally uphill, nanny on outside, fence/hedgeline on other. Gradually get into a jog trot, come back to walk and get the relax, go again etc.

 

[fredflop]

IMO there are two routes for this - training or veterinary. (Ideally both.)

Groundwork - what exactly have you done? My recommendation would be to start on something like the TRT programme. These do so much groundwork that the horse is more than prepared for work under saddle. IMO the "normal" methods of lunging and long reining don't really help prepare a horse to be ridden.

Has the saddle been fitted correctly? I'd always advise a second opinion. A fresh set of eyes can often reveal an issue.

Veterinary - there is more than likely something going on, obvious or not. (I have a shoulder issue, that it hurts when I do certain things. No doctor can find the cause of the issue.) I'd start off with getting someone like Rob Jackson out to have a look. He can find things that others can't. Otherwise, if you have the money to spend, a trip to the vets. Scope for ulcers would be a starting point, and checking for KS as a minimum.

 

[Barklands]

I'm struggling with your reluctance to accept that this horse may be in pain.

It’s not a reluctance, it is based on clear veterinary advice and a known ridden history with full disclosure. Problem horses do exist, we as humans do have a terrible habit of messing these poor creatures up.

To clarify if this mare doesn’t come right over the next couple of months she will not be a ridden prospect not only for her sake but my own! I take pride in all of my horses being happy and comfortable in their ridden careers. As stated several times in this thread once she is working and over the first few minutes of tension she is happy, willing to work and begins to thrive.

 

[TheMule]

I always pony my young horses off another horse so they get used to a rider moving above them- certainly worth a try if you haven’t already

 

[Barklands]

Have you got a solid nanny you could pony her off - slip lead (not on the bit, noseband or similar best) - straight lines, ideally uphill, nanny on outside, fence/hedgeline on other. Gradually get into a jog trot, come back to walk and get the relax, go again etc.

We do, we have a very quiet hunter who we can and will try this with and access to some big flat enclosed fields. We will try without rider on to begin with and see if we can translate that under saddle eventually.

 

[Fransurrey]

I simply don’t bother now with these kind of horses stuck in this pattern of behaviour. You’ve done the right thing in just taking everything back to basics, but she’s still dangerously over-reactive- in my experience they never lose that panic instinct and it’s mostly likely rooted in a physical cause you haven’t found yet.
Also, please don’t use her as a broodmare- if this is physical you’re almost certainly going to cause her pain. If it’s just part of her then you’re breeding poor temperament/ trainability into a foal.

Agree entirely with this. I just don't believe horses like this are suitable for riding or breeding. The latter puts an incredible strain on even a healthy body. The sudden nature of her behaviour suggests that something hurts in the transition to trot and the origin of pain simply hasn't been found.

 

[Barklands]

My general thoughts given that you already identify it as controversial and you seem to be presenting your position thoughtfully.

1. I personally wouldn't ride the horse under medical sedation, I've done it before and hated the feeling it gave me on what what a behaviourally pretty level horse, so I wouldn't want to be on one prone to more extreme triggered behaviour.
2. If I were heavily invested in a horse and time/patience/training weren't overcoming the issue, I may consider sedation as a last ditched attempt, but it wouldn't be me sat on the horse and it would need to be a fully insured pro who was on board with the approach.
3. Horses respond to sedation very differently, if you do go this route, start very low dosage and monitor carefully
4. I know you say the horse is not in pain and it does sound like a fair bit has been done to rule it out, but please don't completely rule it out. Keep it in back of mind and continually re-evalute the situation.

From what I am reading, the horse seems to take confidence from ground handlers, and after triggered seems to settle and start to show some reasonable work? If so, I personally don't think you are at the last ditch sedation stage. I think there is a lot you can be doing to continue to desensitise the fear reaction and I think the bulk of this will be short sessions, with trusted handlers attached to the horse. You also need a very sticky jockey, if it does get triggered then they need to stay on.

One thing I have used successfully in the past is valerian tincture

Very much on the same page - we definitely have more avenues to exhaust first but was more of a last resort consideration if we don’t make much progress.

 

[Barklands]

The problem with only ever working excessively reactive horses in an arena or round pen is that you are placing them in the most terrifying environment (an enclosed space) that they can possibly be in. Then add to that, when they do react they are readily able to ditch even a competent rider because they are constantly on a turn/can “drop” a shoulder because they’re turning, and now the horse is even more terrified because they’ve lost the rider.

Now, whether this is behavioural or physical with this particular horse, I have no idea, but with situations where I’ve decided to push on and continue with ridden work, I’ve taken enclosed spaces completely out of the equation, sometimes for a couple of years, and achieved great results.

Yes you need safe off road riding (or failing that, training gallops would work, and a fair amount of confidence, but it can be the making of the horse. And if they do react to anything, you can let them on and forward and they’re less likely to panic, and you don’t have to worry about going round corners and the horse disappearing out from under you.

I actually loathe the way people start horses in enclosed spaces and make them go constantly on the turn instead of getting them out and about in relaxed straight lines. No wonder it screws their minds.

No I wouldn’t sedate to ride.

I find it very interesting how one school of thought opts for a round pen and the other out hacking or in the open. We are very lucky and we do have access to large enclosed fields but have been working in the arena with her thus far.

I am definitely inclined to agree and think if nothing else a change of scenery would do her the world of good. In an ideal world with no cars I would have her hacking in walk up the lane sandwiched between two of our other horses but I would not like to risk her on the lanes given her history.

 

[I'm Dun]

Have you looked at Featherlight Horsemanship? She has successfully dealt with a number of dangerous horses. She has some useful videos showing her approach. She is a VERY good rider with nerves of steel! I'm not sure normal mortals would be able to achieve her approach. What she does is to allow horses to make mistakes/panic but doesn't reprimand or grab the reins. She just keeps on riding till they stop. She works first in a round pen and then in an indoor school. I know that my instinct for self-preservation would kick in quite early and I would try and do something to make the horse stop - she just keeps on riding! You can sign up to her training academy for a month to watch the videos.

She is amazing, but it definitely isn't something mere mortals can recreate! She is beautiful to watch though.

 

[I'm Dun]

Words of a reputable vet after extensive testing, not mine

She was largely unhandled to “backed” in a couple of weeks by a “professional” - I think that speaks for itself however…

My horses wouldn’t have even finished mouthing in that time!

Vets get it wrong all the time. And my mare went from unbroken to driving in a driving competition in 3 weeks and being placed, so timescale isn't a sign of issues. If she was broken by a pro in a terrible way, surely there would be other horses with the same issues around? Its more likely this issue was always there and just came out when she was backed.

At the end of the day, horses are obliging, easy creatures. This horse is screaming at you. If this was just behavioural, then having had a few good experiences the behaviour should have stopped or be stopping. Its not.

Breeding from her is a terrible idea. Shes had one foal which seems fine, is it working under saddle now? And stood up to a decent amount of work? If not then you don't know there isn't an issue. And having gotten away with it once, doesn't mean you will a second time.