A musing from a grumpy old git.

Really interesting thread. I think there are people in the following groups
1) Say they want to do XYZ, but give hundreds of excuses. When in actual fact they don't really want to put in the work or have the drive, but they don't want to admit it. I think these people would be unlikely to read this thread.
2) Stuck in a rut! It is very easy to get in a rut, but hard to get out. First you need to recognise you are in one and there are different types. I was on a lovely yard with amazing people, but I was the only one who wanted to compete and I don't have my own transport. When I got my new horse I made the really hard decision to move and it has been amazing! We have come on leaps and bounds and there are a lovely bunch of people happy to share the cost of transport.
I also recently switched instructors (to one less than half the price FYI) and that was hard too. My old instructor is very good and had taught me for years, but for some reason it wasn't clicking with my new girl. I came away from lessons feeling deflated and frustrated with myself. Now I feel inspired and come away with lots to work on.
3) Confidence! I don't mean the people who are over coming this and pushing for 3 years to jump - well done you! I mean those who allow it to hold them back. Face the fear and all that. While I don't have confidence issues in the fear sense, I do struggle with self confidence. I am not over horsed in any way, but I worry that I am not good enough/ doing her justice and that can make me ride like a lemon. I think in this case a good instructor/mentor is invaluable and preferably a yard of lovely supportive people too. My instructor helps me to see the good and any improvements, but also picks up and works on the not so good.

Just a note on "you have to be competitive to compete" I don't agree with that. I am not very competitive and that is part of the reasons I have youngsters. I am off to Hickstead on Thursday and I am jumping the 1m classes, most of which are qualifiers. I know there is no way I will even be placed let alone win. There will be at least 150 entries and people motoring round on experienced horses looking to qualify and I would never push my 5yo to go that fast. I am hoping for nice sensible rounds and DC's will be a bonus. I am going because I think the exposure/experience will be good for her and it is a chance to test what we have been practising at home.
 
Mongoose11 said:
Interesting thread. I do think that men have a distinct advantage here and I've said it time and time again when watching male riders. I genuinely believe that women (many) tend to over think, over complicate, throw in buckets full of emotion, self doubt and self criticism and then it puts them at a distinct disadvantage.

I always say that the only reason that the majority of Headteachers are male is because fewer women have the ego, self belief and confidence to believe that they are capable of the job. I see this transferred in to riding a lot of the time. I bet you'll have a male beginner jumping 1.10 far quicker than you ever would a female and it's not because they are 'better'.

Just my twopenneth.
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Do you have a theoretical level beyond which the division you see disappears? Or do you see this as a discipline thing?

I'm thinking of the last olympics as an example. Lots of gutsy women at the top riding eventers, SJers and dressage horses.

Do you think this only applies at the lower levels? I think it's convenient or easy to think this way but I honestly don't see it in practice. :confused3:
 
Mongoose11 said:
Interesting thread. I do think that men have a distinct advantage here and I've said it time and time again when watching male riders. I genuinely believe that women (many) tend to over think, over complicate, throw in buckets full of emotion, self doubt and self criticism and then it puts them at a distinct disadvantage.

I always say that the only reason that the majority of Headteachers are male is because fewer women have the ego, self belief and confidence to believe that they are capable of the job. I see this transferred in to riding a lot of the time. I bet you'll have a male beginner jumping 1.10 far quicker than you ever would a female and it's not because they are 'better'.

Just my twopenneth.
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I don't disagree with this - do you think it's a testosterone-driven, macho thing, or a lack of imagination? That women fear the unknown (what might happen after landing over a big fence for example), when men just do it anyway? or is it adrenalin - more men enjoy an adrenalin rush than women?

Not saying that women don't enjoy an adrenalin rush btw

ETA that isn't meant to sound critical/dismissive - just a sweeping bit of gender stereotyping for a Tuesday afternoon!
 
I'm wondering if there are more perfectionist women than men. . . that then analyze everything to the nth degree before doing it.
I suspect these are the people that I know stick to the one prelim test all summer, and decide which shows to go to based on that.
 
I have read the article and there are some interesting points but I think the numbers are iffy, 9/10 of the top 10 in all 3 disciplines being male isn't right whichever way you interpret it, I only have the dressage results in my head and no time to look up the rest for now, but in that comp at least, all the individual medals went to women :D
 
They were talking about all three disciplines of eventing only though :) not the pure dressage/sj

But in the Olympic eventing last week, where riders and horses locked hooves in the three disciplines of dressage, cross-country and show-jumping, nine out of the top ten places were taken by men.
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Honestly PM I think you are reading too much into what are probably throw away comments. To go from pottering about unaffiliated to being competitive at lower levels affiliated is a big jump in both time and money. I think it's as simple as 95% of people don't see the benefit of the commitment as they have other things in their lives. I've done the super competitive, work/train hard thing in the past and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure if I'll bother again with the next horse after some horrendous luck with injuries. You say you ride 2hrs plus 6 days a week, if I wanted to do that I'd have to give up a lot of other things in my life I really enjoy. Whereas I can ride a friends horse twice a week, not improve, do the odd unaff ode and still have time/money to buy a house which doing up, go on lots of holidays, spend time with friends and family.

To give a similar example Im a little bit overweight, I'm a size 12 when I should really be a 10. If I was chatting casually at work/farm about wearing a bikini I'd probably say 'I'd love to be skinny' when in reality I prefer cake and yummy food to weighing a stone less! I know what commitment it would take to lose the weight and it doesn't seem worth the effort. Same as the person who says 'id love to jump x height or id love to win a rosette' for a lot of people it would be a big commitment they are not willing to make, whether it's the increased time commitment or the difficulty of overcoming nervousness. The large majority of the people at my yard (70+ liveries with excellent facilities) ride 2-3 times a week, have the odd lesson off the cheaper mediocre local instructors and so don't really improve and if they compete it's intro/prelim dressage or 60cm sj. They love their horses and they are happy, they probably look at your life and think it's dull to spend all that time and money on competing :-) horses for courses!
 
I think you said you had a 60 hour working week too - assuming you are competing (not working) at weekends, that's 12 hours a day (5 days) - time to get to and from work / yard, horse care etc... and then riding for over 2 hours 6 days a week as well - I'm struggling to see where you have time to sleep / eat, never mind fit in maintain relationships, bringing up children, cook / clean / maintain property.... most people could not sustain a lifestyle like this - something would need to give. And usually it would be their hobby (after all we are not talking about people who's riding is their career). I don't see this as a bad thing - a balance is required.

I often have to work 12 hour plus days and the last thing on my mind afterwards is to train for 2 hours plus - I would be more concerned with spending a some time with my daughter, cooking some dinner, getting some washing done for the next day, and maybe, if time, pootling along for a relaxing hack.
 
On the gender issue, it's not how many men are at the top compared to how many women are at the top that shows what is going on. It's how many men are at the top compared to how many men start out at the bottom. It's very clear that men are generally more driven to go out and try and beat other people, and will do whatever it takes to achieve that. Same as in the Boardroom.
 
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Jango said:
Honestly PM I think you are reading too much into what are probably throw away comments. To go from pottering about unaffiliated to being competitive at lower levels affiliated is a big jump in both time and money. I think it's as simple as 95% of people don't see the benefit of the commitment as they have other things in their lives. I've done the super competitive, work/train hard thing in the past and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure if I'll bother again with the next horse after some horrendous luck with injuries. You say you ride 2hrs plus 6 days a week, if I wanted to do that I'd have to give up a lot of other things in my life I really enjoy. Whereas I can ride a friends horse twice a week, not improve, do the odd unaff ode and still have time/money to buy a house which doing up, go on lots of holidays, spend time with friends and family.

To give a similar example Im a little bit overweight, I'm a size 12 when I should really be a 10. If I was chatting casually at work/farm about wearing a bikini I'd probably say 'I'd love to be skinny' when in reality I prefer cake and yummy food to weighing a stone less! I know what commitment it would take to lose the weight and it doesn't seem worth the effort. Same as the person who says 'id love to jump x height or id love to win a rosette' for a lot of people it would be a big commitment they are not willing to make, whether it's the increased time commitment or the difficulty of overcoming nervousness. The large majority of the people at my yard (70+ liveries with excellent facilities) ride 2-3 times a week, have the odd lesson off the cheaper mediocre local instructors and so don't really improve and if they compete it's intro/prelim dressage or 60cm sj. They love their horses and they are happy, they probably look at your life and think it's dull to spend all that time and money on competing :-) horses for courses!
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Very good point! The Police would be very busy if everyone who said 'I'm going to kill him!' meant it :)
 
This has turned out to be a great thread. Maybe I can add a bit more now that it has developed :)

I've wanted to compete in dressage since I was a teenager. I never got the "whole jumping thing" that many teenagers get. I wanted the "being one with your horse and dancing across the arena" instead. I had lessons where and when I could afford it (having absolutely no connections to horses, and my parents didn't have any spare money, and I wasn't one of those "I'll do anything" to be around horses at the time as I was very, er, academic at the time). When I was 16 I had an accident - which continues to send ripples down my life - and it completely killed my confidence around horses. I didn't go near a horse again til I was 24. I then had 2 years of pure dressage lessons on a weekly basis with a very strict German trained instructor. It developed my passion for accuracy if nothing else!

My first horse hated schooling. You could hear him grump when we headed for the arena rather than the great outdoors, so I put my dreams of dressaging on hold again, while I cooperated with him, and we did more hacking than schooling. I bought a foal with the intent that he would grow up to be my (big, black) dressage horse - if *he* didn't like dressage, then I would probably have to give up on the idea all together!

I lost Pinto far earlier than I was expecting to, and then I ended up with a very green (too green!) small black pony who had never been schooled at all, was very spooky and couldn't canter.

Three years on, my small black pony is schooling elementary level bits and pieces, though we are still struggling with canter. My big black horse, who is extremely trainable if a bit thick, is probably too much horse for me but I am determined that I will get out there and do it - eventually.

I am extremely lacking in confidence; I've now had two head injuries, I have ongoing issues with balance perception and proprioception, vertigo etc and it really doesn't take much to knock what little confidence I do have. Most of it is psychological - I can catastophosize with the best of them. I've had counseling, group therapy, hypnotherapy etc. Many people ask me why I keep doing it if I'm so scared... it's because I want to! I have a goal. First it is dressage, but ultimately it is CCE (ODE). I may be scrambling round a 60cm (that's Club 3 level!) course, but that is my ultimate goal. I don't care how long it takes to get there.

Yesterday I had the hugest proud moment when I went on my first solo hack in almost 4 years. I was out 20 mins, and stayed in walk. I didn't shut up for a minute (talking to my pony, singing etc), so I must have looked like a complete loon. But I did it!

It is the small things which keep me getting back on. The small moments when Tartine is really working through, her back comes up and I can *sit* into her trot and we just glide effortlessly. The time when she "got" medium trot, and her shoulders lifted. Doing a course of "jumps" (which were bars on the ground) making sure our lines were correct in canter. Being able to laugh when she leaps over a canter pole instead of having a panic attack.

I may not achieve great things, but I will achieve more than I am at the moment.
 
Lucyad said:
I think you said you had a 60 hour working week too - assuming you are competing (not working) at weekends, that's 12 hours a day (5 days) - time to get to and from work / yard, horse care etc... and then riding for over 2 hours 6 days a week as well - I'm struggling to see where you have time to sleep / eat, never mind fit in maintain relationships, bringing up children, cook / clean / maintain property.... most people could not sustain a lifestyle like this - something would need to give. And usually it would be their hobby (after all we are not talking about people who's riding is their career). I don't see this as a bad thing - a balance is required.

I often have to work 12 hour plus days and the last thing on my mind afterwards is to train for 2 hours plus - I would be more concerned with spending a some time with my daughter, cooking some dinner, getting some washing done for the next day, and maybe, if time, pootling along for a relaxing hack.
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That again is why I wonder if it is a bit different because P+M doesn't own his, he usually rides for other people which is very different to having your own on quite a lot of levels. He hasn't come back to my prior musings on that though.
 
I wonder also if you feel this way because you tend to get involved with horses that are not reaching their potential with their owners (for whatever reason) and then have a task of bringing them on the a certain level. This is your 'job' with them so to speak, so you will necessarily be goal drive. You get a period between horses to recharge. The relationship between you and the horse, and overall care, is not as predominantly a part of the package as your average one horse owner. You also tend to get the horses taken back by the owner once they reach their peak so you don't necessarily have the issue of getting to a level that you as a combination of horse and rider get stuck at, without the potential to keep progressing. I might be wrong...just musing....
 
ester said:
That again is why I wonder if it is a bit different because P+M doesn't own his, he usually rides for other people which is very different to having your own on quite a lot of levels. He hasn't come back to my prior musings on that though.
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Cross posted!
 
Been a thought provoking thread, although me wonders where OP has gone to, after lobbing in his grenade he seems to have gone AWOL! Liked this too from Jango...

Jango said:
Honestly PM I think you are reading too much into what are probably throw away comments. To go from pottering about unaffiliated to being competitive at lower levels affiliated is a big jump in both time and money. I think it's as simple as 95% of people don't see the benefit of the commitment as they have other things in their lives. I've done the super competitive, work/train hard thing in the past and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure if I'll bother again with the next horse after some horrendous luck with injuries. You say you ride 2hrs plus 6 days a week, if I wanted to do that I'd have to give up a lot of other things in my life I really enjoy. Whereas I can ride a friends horse twice a week, not improve, do the odd unaff ode and still have time/money to buy a house which doing up, go on lots of holidays, spend time with friends and family.

To give a similar example Im a little bit overweight, I'm a size 12 when I should really be a 10. If I was chatting casually at work/farm about wearing a bikini I'd probably say 'I'd love to be skinny' when in reality I prefer cake and yummy food to weighing a stone less! I know what commitment it would take to lose the weight and it doesn't seem worth the effort. Same as the person who says 'id love to jump x height or id love to win a rosette' for a lot of people it would be a big commitment they are not willing to make, whether it's the increased time commitment or the difficulty of overcoming nervousness. The large majority of the people at my yard (70+ liveries with excellent facilities) ride 2-3 times a week, have the odd lesson off the cheaper mediocre local instructors and so don't really improve and if they compete it's intro/prelim dressage or 60cm sj. They love their horses and they are happy, they probably look at your life and think it's dull to spend all that time and money on competing :-) horses for courses!
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I don't agree with the idea that you have to be competitive to compete.

I love eventing but would never consider myself competitive, I just use events
• as a goal to aim my training towards and make sure his all round education is even
• to see how i measure my progress, but not against others
• as a day out and enjoyable experience
• to explore where my weaknesses are
• as a social thing
• as a marker, if he's finding a level easy then i know it's time to move up

I couldn't care less how we place. It's not always an even playing field. You always get the riders who have the schoolmasters who have done 3 levels above, or the people bringing on fabulous well bred babies. I just use it as a standard to see where i am at. I've won competitions on a bad day, and 'lost' even after his best performances. So at the end of the day i just go and enjoy it.
 
I don't think this is really a question of competing, more about the desire to continually improve and the steps you take to get there. It's about the mindset; putting goals in place and working towards them.

I think PM's first instinct is to plan those things out quite clearly, and he doesn't understand why other people, who have voiced their goal (e.g. do a Novice test, jump 70cm, hack a particular route, whatever), have no plan for how to achieve it and, in some cases, don't understand themselves WHY they aren't achieving it.

Improvement doesn't happen by magic; you work for it, regardless of your discipline and whether you compete or not.
 
ester said:
That again is why I wonder if it is a bit different because P+M doesn't own his, he usually rides for other people which is very different to having your own on quite a lot of levels. He hasn't come back to my prior musings on that though.
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My Bad. Tad busy atm.
My initial thought was yes you could be on to something. I'm judged on how the horse is improving so there is a need to show development. Then I got to thinking how I behaved when I did have own horse or horses on long term loan with no pressure from owner. I was exactly the same.
 
To progress in something though you need to have a certain mindset and self discipline to pursue it. And in pursuing it you definitely sacrifice other things, eg time & energy that would have been spent on other things/people. Some people just don't have the energy to start the process as they have other priorities. In an ideal world they would like to, but if your horse is your relaxation time then i can completely understand keeping it easy.

And everyone is different in what makes them tick. I think of it in relation to gardening, some people make the most of their garden and put effort and time in to make it beautiful, some people would love a nice garden but are happy enough to just cut the grass and use it a few times a year when its sunny. And im sure its nice to imagine what you COULD do, but at the end of the day you pick what you want to concentrate your energy on. Just because you have a garden doesn't mean you need to use it to it's potential.
 
it doesn't surprise me that there are more men at top level. A lot women would have kids and it's 100 times more difficult to get the time to train and compete, especially in competing. I am in awe of the women i see towing kids around at events. But it does require a massive amount of support, you see them with husbands, grannies and grandads in tow helping them. If i had kids i'd have no support available like that so wouldn't be able to do it. It's a massive commitment money and timewise. It;s no just you giving your day up, its your helpers as well.

Any friends i have who have had kids have struggled to get the time, money energy to get back to competitive level and are delighted to even get out to a local show.
 
paddi22 said:
it doesn't surprise me that there are more men at top level. A lot women would have kids and it's 100 times more difficult to get the time to train and compete, especially in competing. I am in awe of the women i see towing kids around at events. But it does require a massive amount of support, you see them with husbands, grannies and grandads in tow helping them. If i had kids i'd have no support available like that so wouldn't be able to do it. It's a massive commitment money and timewise. It;s no just you giving your day up, its your helpers as well.

Any friends i have who have had kids have struggled to get the time, money energy to get back to competitive level and are delighted to even get out to a local show.
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But then it's even more important to set targets and take the steps to achieve them.
I work full time and have a 3yo son, the target for this year was to get the 5yo ISH to RC areas. So far he's done Novice winters as his first show, qualified for the Novice summer regionals as part of a team, then went to Hartpury for the regional final and our team won (he was one of the 2dcs on our team), he was on the team for the area ODE where we finished 12th in our section and the team came 2nd. I set him realistic goals and made sure he had the outings and experience to fulfill them.
 
thats amazing and fair play to you, but who minds him when you are training and competing? If you don't have grandparents or a supportive husband, or a super paid job where you can afford minders, it's really difficult to get the time free. I see how much all my friends struggle, especially if they have a couple of kids, it's easier to offload one than three!
 
paddi22 said:
thats amazing and fair play to you, but who minds him when you are training and competing? If you don't have grandparents or a supportive husband, or a super paid job where you can afford minders, it's really difficult to get the time free. I see how much all my friends struggle, especially if they have a couple of kids, it's easier to offload one than three!
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Husband is very anti-horse but will usually do the childcare whilst I compete - but I try and limit the frequency that I compete as he gets extremely grumpy about it. My mum and I can usually manage horse + childcare between us at other times. I definitely don't have the money for additional minders beyond the days he does at nursery whilst I'm working - and I can only afford 2 of those, my mum has him the other 3! I'm also incredibly lucky that my parents do the majority of the equine care as well.

Even with one it's tricky, our 1st ODE this year involved a 4.30 alarm and taking small with me - made for an EXTREMELY grumpy child. But if you want to compete you do it tbh. I have friends with more children / less childcare opportunities and am amazed at what they can achieve. The one thing that you end up giving up on is sleep :( In someways it has got easier as he's got bigger - I see it as I'm making the most of my time before his sport and activities take over so want to achieve as much as I can before that happens.
 
Lucyad said:
I think you said you had a 60 hour working week too - assuming you are competing (not working) at weekends, that's 12 hours a day (5 days) - time to get to and from work / yard, horse care etc... and then riding for over 2 hours 6 days a week as well - I'm struggling to see where you have time to sleep / eat, never mind fit in maintain relationships, bringing up children, cook / clean / maintain property.... most people could not sustain a lifestyle like this - something would need to give. And usually it would be their hobby (after all we are not talking about people who's riding is their career). I don't see this as a bad thing - a balance is required.
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I wanted to say this about 15 pages ago but couldn't word it without seeming a bit off with the OP. For me personally my commute is about 45 mins each way so realistically I would be out of the house for 14 hours a day just to work a 60 hour week (15 if we deduct the hour I have to take and don't get paid for at lunch). Unless you work from home and/or have paid help just keeping on top of the basics, cooking dishwashing, washing etc never mind cleaning would be virtually impossible.
I also don't ride my own, but I do tack up etc for myself so I would in the circumstances you describe be arriving at the yard at maybe 9pm with a prospect of riding for a couple of hours and likely not getting home before midnight. I would then be having to cook and at the very least sort out the dishwasher or washing machine before going to bed and getting up around 5 to walk the dogs! I would also be having to pay a dog walker in this sort of scenario!
The above is one of the reasons I don't have a horse of my own anymore.

While I approve of goal setting they do need to be realistic and achievable so for me to get to PSG is unlikely because I simply don't have the time to put the work in. However to sigh and wish I could get to Novice BD or similar, well I think most of us have that ability although we might have to be realistic about what marks we can expect to achieve. I have little patience for anyone who is fit and well (mentally and physically) with a healthy horse who won't get out and have a go if it is what they want to do.
 
I Get sick of dressage trainers saying I should be doing xyz with my horses .
One very well respected trainer told me recently I should be training people I mean why ?
You know why I am not because I can't be bothered / I don't want to .
When I was younger I competed now I just can imagine nothing worse all that memorising stuff packing and unpacking lorries not for me now .
 
Goldenstar said:
I Get sick of dressage trainers saying I should be doing xyz with my horses .
One very well respected trainer told me recently I should be training people I mean why ?
You know why I am not because I can't be bothered / I don't want to .
When I was younger I competed now I just can imagine nothing worse all that memorising stuff packing and unpacking lorries not for me now .
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That's kind of me now too; I really couldn't be arsed.
 
When I bought my horse I thought we would be working at advanced medium, and that he'd be my trick riding and endurance horse. Once I got to know him I had to adapt all of my aspirations. Those things just weren't him. He was highly strung, prone to panic and a bit autistic in his views on the world. Every day was like he'd never seen the world before. He is a stunning mover, an athletic jumper and has an incredibly trainable mind, but he also has a fragile mind. I don't deny that with a better rider he might be a better competition horse but he is stuck with me. So I adapted my ambitions to suit him. He doesn't need to compete now to fulfil my new ambition to be a better horsewoman. We compete at trec rather than dressage or eventing because the puzzles suit him and the atmosphere at competitions suits him better (corralling rather than stabling overnight). I take massive amounts of pleasure in training him at home, he is a real joy to ride, we work on dressage movements but made more fun for him so we do garocha training or working equitation elements, or archery, whatever. I have learned more than I ever thought possible from this little horse. So at competitions we may be that combination that people think should do better, but at home we work hard, train hard and have the best time together, and I no longer feel I'm letting him down for not competing at a higher level. I dont need rosettes or big jumps to prove his worth.

But I have every respect for those who do work up the levels with happy horses, having fun.
 
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