A musing from a grumpy old git.

[Cheiro1]

I see post after post about people schooling their horse for 12-18 months and feel they might be able to do an intro test soon. Taking years just to jump 70cm. Stick at the same level eventing all season, think getting over the last fence SJ is an achievement even if 6 poles have gone down during the round.

Why?

Because for some of us getting round a 70cm SJ round IS a bl00dy big achievement? My own horse retired from much more than hacking years ago and I now have the ride of a saint of an ID. It's taken me 3 years to get to stage where I am jumping 70-80cms - do I think that makes me mediocre? No, I think I am bloody lucky to have had the opportunity to spend 3 years working at it! Could the horse have jumped 80cms 3 years ago - yes of course he could, but I couldn't and it took me 3 years to get there....

Is the pat on the back mentality we have for the slightest of success

But who are you to say that jumping 70cms is the "slightest success" to someone? I've known situations where it was a success for someone to walk one lap of an arena on their horse.....why should that be be-littled?

Have people lost sight of what can be achieved with correct training and effort?

Knowing what can be achieved and having any desire TO achieve things are very different things. I want to ride in top and tails one day, and I will work bloody hard to get there. I COULD aim to ride round a BE80 or jump 90cms, and both of those would be achievable with training and effort, but I have no desire to do either of those things, so why should I?!

Aha! But this is an arbitrary, very personal standard. BE90/100 is clearly well within your comfort zone, so it seems reasonable to you that everyone ought to be able to do it and it's hard to understand why something that seems easy to you is not achievable for other people.

So, two things:

1. As to the substance of it, whether BE90/100 is achievable for the whole world and his wife, I fink you is wrong. I don't think that absolutely every horse and rider could do it. BE100 fences can be big enough, if you're on a horse with limited scope, if you're prone to a wobble moment, if you've got one that says no to ditches/water/skinnies. Where I would agree with you is that most experienced riders, who want to compete, and who have chosen a horse to compete on, should be able to do it. But that's already quite a lot of caveats and narrows the field significantly from saying that every man and his wife should be able to do it.

2. As to the philosophical nature of it, whether the riders "should" be setting more ambitious goals - well, if that rider is you, then clearly you should be setting yourself the goal of going BE100. But everyone is just so, so different, and we all have wildly different goals, circumstances, abilities and ambitions. One person's two-star can be another person's intro test. So if it takes person 1 18 months to build up to their two star and it takes person 2 18 months to build up to their intro test, then - well done both. Well done for doing something you love and for putting the time and commitment in to doing it and making it happen.

HottoTrot always put things far more eloquently than I would ever be able.

There is also a lot of belittling on this thread about a lack of confidence. Confidence is incredibly personal, some of us are not blessed with a "gung-ho" attitude, and perhaps until you have experienced how paralysing it can be it would be best not to comment on it! I'm a nervous rider in some situations, not because I have had a bad experience, not because the tuition I have received has been poor (in fact I thank past instructors for the fact I still ride at all) just because I am. But you know what, my horses are my life despite it, for me it is a MASSIVE achievement to feel confident jumping 70cms, and yes it took 3 years on a saint of a horse.

I don't personally give a damn what other people think of that because I know it is an achievement and so do those close to me, but there are people who would be really demoralised and demeaned to think people thought that working to achieve 70cms made them mediocre.

 

[milliepops]

What a lack of empathy and understanding this statement shows. You had several jobs to pay for your lessons? Bully for you. Not everyone finds life that simple.

I don't think I'd have put it that bluntly, but what would be your solution ycbm? If riding lessons are expensive because of the cost of renting /buying facilities, horses, insurance and paying instructors etc etc, how do you afford it other than to either earn more or make economies elsewhere?

Some people will be priced out , doubtless. But that's life , to a point, isn't it? Inherently not fair. I return to my yacht question. If I wanted one I'd have to get a second or third job or else live on baked beans for several decades :lol: not complain that it's not fair :s

 

[PaddyMonty]

Interesting spread of responses in this thread. Some get where I'm coming from, some sort of do and a few participate in the now 21st century national sport of taking offence despite this not being aimed at anyone specifically.

Nowhere have I said people must compete or that I look down on people competing at entry level comps. I have spent a lot of time around many different yards and see / hear the same thing all the time. People saying they would love to be able to do XYZ at some point but when questioned about what they are doing to make it happen there is rarely any concrete plan to make it happen. There are always the excuses - horse power being the primary one which is what prompted this thread about setting low expectations.
I also sail and remember what a hugely experience sailor replied when asked what the best yacht to cross the atlantic in was. He reply was "the one you currently have". This fits with horses very well also.

If people don't want to compete then fine but dont tell me that someone who is competing no matter what the level does not have a competitive nature. They do, if they didn't they wouldn't compete at all.

It may be a generational thing. I started riding in 1964 and have seen huge changes in the horse world in the last 50 years. Some much needed, some I'm not so sure about.

So in summary. If you dont want to compete then fine. If you do want to and are not struggling with horse or rider injuries then I would just say take a honest look at whats holding you back because it probably isn't the horse in front of you.

 

[PaddyMonty]

I return to my yacht question. If I wanted one I'd have to get a second or third job or else live on baked beans for several decades :lol: not complain that it's not fair :s

You can always join me for a weekend or day sail on mine. Paid for from that 60 hour week, running a crappy 13yo car and not having holidays, meals out or anything else that other folk consider normal.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I know what you're saying Millipops, it is a good thread. Here's an interesting observation from two good amateur riders, doing BE100, that recently came over looking at horses. I took them to a training show to see a horse that was of interest and competing the day they arrived.

They were blown away by the standard of the children riding and told me that this would not be seen in the UK. They said the kids were at a way higher level here and all seemed to be such good little riders. They blamed UK riding schools where they said kids are allowed now to basically do nothing thanks to health and safety rules. By contrast a lot of the kids at the training show might never have had riding lessons, they're from a rural background, taught the basics by parents and then taken out hunting where they quickly learned to stick on Clearly, that approach is working better than a decade of lessons in an uninspiring riding school!

A little unfair to compare a child that probably rides less than an hour a week at a riding school with non-horsey parents to those with access to their own or friends ponies for regular riding and hunting.

It's also much more expensive to keep horses in England certainly down South and aside from characters in Christine Pullein-Thompson pony books I don't know of any child ever being offered fantastic free riding and hunting opportunities.

 

[ycbm]

I don't think I'd have put it that bluntly, but what would be your solution ycbm? If riding lessons are expensive because of the cost of renting /buying facilities, horses, insurance and paying instructors etc etc, how do you afford it other than to either earn more or make economies elsewhere?

Some people will be priced out , doubtless. But that's life , to a point, isn't it? Inherently not fair. I return to my yacht question. If I wanted one I'd have to get a second or third job or else live on baked beans for several decades :lol: not complain that it's not fair :s

My solution? Not to post a thread belittling people for not achieving what I have achieved.

Nowhere in the original post does it say anything about people complaining that they are not winning when they have not trained for it. Perhaps those people do need a kick in the pants, though really it's no ones business but their own. My own solution to those people is to ignore them.

But the original post is, pure and simple, having a pop at people for not wanting to achieve more, or not achieving it in the timescales that someone else thinks is reasonable.

For subsequent posts to say 'just earn more if you want to succeed' is pretty insulting to those whose circumstances or abilities simply won't allow them to do that, or people who, for example, think they should spend more time with their children than they do either with or earning money to train, their horse.

There's a horrible lot of judgemental stuff going on in this thread

 

[HeresHoping]

To those that cite the cost of lessons as an inhibitor, then earn some more money - I frequently had two or three jobs on the go at once to make ends meet. Sell anything you have that has worth if you no longer use it/need it. Cut back on your outgoings. In other words make sacrifices. Good lessons always have been expensive. You can't have it all unless you are from a wealthy background, so if you want to event or whatever and are just a normal Joe Bloggs then you really have to WANT it to make it happen. That hunger appears to be lacking nowadays. As said above, society has changed.

This has made me a little bit cross, actually. You don't know everyone's circumstances. You can't possibly order a blanket solution in such a way.

I WANT to make it happen. BUT! It's not a just case of 'earn some more money'. I work every hour I can. So does my husband. We're both self-employed because we're both victims of the last recession where redundant, 40+ with children = don't want to know. Believe me, it's not a lack of qualifications - I have an MBA (Distinction) and God knows how many marketing certificates. My husband is a commercial litigation solicitor. We should be creaming it in, huh? Well, sometimes have the odd spare £100, other months we barely scrape by. I have two children in private school for reasons I don't want to argue on here, suffice to say we were not 'welcome' at our local village school. Every spare penny goes on them. I'm not going to sacrifice their education just so I can fulfill a dream by having a few more lessons with a big instructor. A lesson is a pair of school shoes. Or 3/4 grocery my weekly grocery bill. If I took another job I'd see neither my horse nor my children.

Okay. So that got a little personal. But many are probably in the same boat. I got where PM was coming from. This I can't believe anyone is so introspective as to think it's a solution. I managed lessons once per fortnight with my last instructor because I had skills I could offer her in return. So far up here, I don't think I can offer the same. The instructor I have now has it licked. I can afford a lesson once per every 4 weeks if I'm lucky. And I hawk my horse out a couple of times a week to afford them, then. But then again I'm also an experienced rider so can work on the instruction. I've reread most of this thread. Those citing cost of lessons as an inhibitor are few and far between and it's not a single contributing factor.

 

[ycbm]

If people don't want to compete then fine but dont tell me that someone who is competing no matter what the level does not have a competitive nature. They do, if they didn't they wouldn't compete at all.

PM will you please stop making these generalised judgments based on how you yourself feel?

I often compete to train young horses. I often compete for a day out at a place with a great cafe. I often compete to make me focus on something to train for at home. I often compete because a friend is going.

In these situations 'compete' to me means only 'enter a competition' and 'winning' can be as little as 'the horse loaded, didn't dump me, and we both came home safe'.

 

[PaddyMonty]

No, I think I am bloody lucky to have had the opportunity to spend 3 years working at it! Could the horse have jumped 80cms 3 years ago - yes of course he could, but I couldn't and it took me 3 years to get there....

Do you mind me asking why it took you three years? Genuinely interested. No problem if you'd rather not discuss.

Just for the record I stand firmly by my statement about horse world decending in to mediocraty.
20 years ago at a local show classes would start at 2 foot and finish at 3'6". There would be almost as many in the 3'6" as the the 2'0". These days the classes start at 1'0" and huge numbers of entries and people still cant get round the class. Come the 2'9" there are perhaps 6 people in it. The 3'3" is often cancelled due to lack of entries. Sponsored rides used to be 20 MILES. Now they are 5 or 10km
It seems the main objective is to allow people to say they do something without putting in any real effort. JMHO

 

[PaddyMonty]

PM will you please stop making these generalised judgments based on how you yourself feel?

YCBM - are you not doing the very same thing?

 

[ycbm]

Do you mind saying why it took you three years? Genuinely interested. No problem if you'd rather not discuss.

Just for the record I stand firmly by my statement about horse world decending in to mediocraty.
20 years ago at a local show classes would start at 2 foot and finish at 3'6". There would be almost as many in the 3'6" as the the 2'0". These days the classes start at 1'0" and huge numbers of entries and people still cant get round the class. Come the 2'9" there are perhaps 6 people in it. The 3'3" is often cancelled due to lack of entries. Sponsored rides used to be 20 MILES. Now they are 5 or 10km
It seems the main objective is to allow people to say they do something without putting in any real effort. JMHO

Twenty years ago only the very top competed affiliated. Now those people jumping the high local classes are affiliated and local shows have dropped the higher class due to lack of demand and put tiny stuff in to recover their entries to make a show worth running financially.

Twenty years ago I could do eight good standard local one day events at 2ft 6 within an hour drive. Now there are two and the course has been cut in half by an airport expansion so it's not worth doing. Mostly because BE brought in BE 80.

You're opinion sounds anything but humble to me!

 

[ycbm]

YCBM - are you not doing the very same thing?

No.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Really, so you honestly believe your statement is far more valid than mine. Says a lot.

 

[ycbm]

Really, so you honestly believe your statement is far more valid than mine. Says a lot.

If by 'valid' you mean correct, how can it not be?

You said everyone who competes is competitive. I said not everyone is, because I for one am often not, so that has (by definition) to be true even if I am the only one, which I think is unlikely.

I did not say that no-one is competitive because clearly, that would be as incorrect as you saying that everyone is.

 

[Cheiro1]

Do you mind me asking why it took you three years? Genuinely interested. No problem if you'd rather not discuss.

Ever since I learnt to ride jumping has scared me, it just does. Couldn't tell you why. 3 years ago the thought of trotting round the 1ft class at a local show would have made me feel sick (and the horse is a saint and would take me clear round a 90cm if I so desired). It's taken 3 years of forcing myself to go out and enter SJ competitions (starting at 2ft and working up slowly) to get to a stage where I have now done a few 70cm ODEs and will enter 80cm SJ classes.

I'm one of these people who, if you force me to do something, it will just make me even more terrified next time, it has to be my decision to try something/do something.

It's not because I don't want to, it just takes time and I'd rather take that time and be solid when I do it than enter something I am not ready for, have a wobble, cause an issue and then start right back at square 1.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If people don't want to compete then fine but dont tell me that someone who is competing no matter what the level does not have a competitive nature. They do, if they didn't they wouldn't compete at all.

Not so.

I used to compete to a decent standard, but it was never about the winning. It was about the training and the partnership with the horse.

Relentlessly competitive types can be very wearing for us less driven types, I learnt to avoid them. Didn't stop me putting in loads of graft to get my ex RC cob to BD medium plus teams, RC nationals etc etc.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Not so.

I used to compete to a decent standard, but it was never about the winning. It was about the training and the partnership with the horse.

So why did you compete? Genuine question.

 

[Tiddlypom]

To give me the kick up the @rse I needed to put the work in to be ready for the competitions, but I always preferred the training at home to the competing.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Cheiro1 - Thanks for the response. Can I ask if you had an instructor helping you and if so how often and how experienced were they?

 

[PaddyMonty]

To give me the kick up the @rse I needed to put the work in to be ready for the competitions, but I always preferred the training at home to the competing.

So if it didn't matter how you did at the comp what did you need to be ready for. All a competition does is test one horses and riders ability against a group of peers. The skill of the trainer for both horse and rider playing a large part. Surely you were testing your training against others? ie competing.

 

[ester]

The low level unaff competing I have done and my mum did was as much for the day out socialising as the competition, an for the odd people to say how lovely your pony was! Which was handy on the days things went a bit awry. It had very little to do with any competitive nature or ambitions.
Also you say about people saying they would love to be able to do XYZ and it is your belief that they could if they worked hard enough at it. Have you ever asked them why they aren't aiming for it right now?

 

[ycbm]

So if it didn't matter how you did at the comp what did you need to be ready for. All a competition does is test one horses and riders ability against a group of peers. The skill of the trainer for both horse and rider playing a large part. Surely you were testing your training against others? ie competing.

No that's not all that a competition does. Did you read my list of why I compete? Other people earlier on the thread have talked about dressage as being mainly a competition with yourself against your previous performances.

I'm currently training a young cob to go out at medium. Will he be placed? Unlikely, and if he is it will only be because better people haven't turned up. Do I care? Not one bit. Why am I going? For the day out with my OH, for the cafe (which is scrummy and run by friends who deserve the trade), so that I have some incentive to train at the level he's training at (but not ready to win at) at home, and because I'm bored witless with decades of prelims to elementary so I don't want to do what he could win at.

We simply aren't all wired to be highly competitive like you PM.

 

[oldie48]

I hope I didn't write anything unkind about your friend. Apologies if I did.
Gosh, no! the person who suggested she should buy a fat ploddy cob annoyed me as friend competes at eventing and SJ at a grassroots level with some success, sadly her current horse needs to step down and friend is keen to step up a level. Also the person who suggested she couldn't sit a buck was way off mark, she may be in her 50's but she's not a novice happy hacker! She just hasn't to date bought on a youngster but she needs a reasonable competition horse to further her ambitions and like so many people, money is an issue, hence looking at a youngster.

 

[ester]

P+M I have a query, I'm pondering how your competitiveness goes with not having your own horse and whether that perhaps means that you have a different outlook to those of us that do have our horses just for the sake of having them, keen to improve them but sometimes just from the point of view of keeping them well muscled and moving healthily and staying sound.

 

[teapot]

Some people will be priced out , doubtless. But that's life , to a point, isn't it? Inherently not fair. I return to my yacht question. If I wanted one I'd have to get a second or third job or else live on baked beans for several decades :lol: not complain that it's not fair :s

You could still go sailing at your local club though - you're not priced out of the hobby, you're priced out of having your own yacht. In the same way you don't need your own horse to ride.

I genuinely only mentioned the lesson costs because I think it's one of the reasons behind the so called increase in mediocrity. £73 is a lot of money for some people. (Those who don't think it is need a reality check). Some cannot afford to pay that sort of money for a lesson, however hard they work, so they look at other options, cheaper options, where the mediocrity is freely available (£15 for thirty minutes or whatever it is) and that starts the vicious cycle of potentially never improving or knowing about how much there is to gain from an equestrian hobby.

That I find sad because the gap between the cost of good training and the cost of mediocre/rubbish training is getting ever wider. That isn't good for the sport as a whole imho.

 

[milliepops]

You could still go sailing at your local club though - you're not priced out of the hobby, you're priced out of having your own yacht. In the same way you don't need your own horse to ride.

I generally only mentioned the lesson costs because I think it's one of the reasons behind the so called increase in mediocrity. £73 is a lot of money for some people. Some cannot afford to pay that sort of money for a lesson, however hard they work. So they look at other options, cheaper options, where the mediocrity is freely available (£15 for thirty minutes or whatever it is) and that starts the vicious cycle of potentially never improving or knowing about how much there is to gain from an equestrian hobby.

That I find sad because the gap between the cost of good training and the cost of mediocre/rubbish training is getting ever wider. That isn't good for the sport as a whole imho.

I'd consider myself priced out, because running my horses absorbs all my cash so there is none spare for anything else Same as PM mentioned earlier, he runs his hobbies by not having new cars or holidays or eating out - it's all priorities.
Speaking of which, PM, it's a kind offer, but tbh I'd begrudge the time away from the steeds, lol!

I do think there is great training out there for a reasonable price though. Look at the cost of lessons thread, it's bumping around somewhere on this page. Mine is the most expensive so far, *ARGH* but worth making sacrifices elsewhere to me and the quality is such that we don't go very often, getting plenty of homework done in between sessions. But many other posters had lots of positive things to say about some very high level trainers, at a much more affordable level. I know several local pros around me that teach for a great price and who get good results for their students.

I think the riding school element is related but it's a slight departure from the OP IMO, though I agree it's a terrible shame that some people aren't getting what they should do from them.

 

[oldie48]

No that's not all that a competition does. Did you read my list of why I compete? Other people earlier on the thread have talked about dressage as being mainly a competition with yourself against your previous performances.

Totally agree with this. I did a regular monthly test riding clinic today with a list 1 judge and if I repeat a test I like to compare sheets to see what I've improved on etc. Disappointed today as I dropped 1%, horse gave me a perfect FC but sadly it was not required and our free walk was pants again! Actually, I'd quite like to compete him but he's funny in the warm up, our centres get very busy and let's be honest not all riders are that careful and I don't bounce these days. However, it's no big deal as I enjoy the training and riding so much it really doesn't matter.

 

[ester]

but the thing is on the money thing that people could work hard and do without holidays, meals out etc and choose to have a horse with few major competitive ambitions because they can't afford the extra training but appreciate all the other things that their horse brings them as friend, therapist, reason to be out in the countryside etc. That doesn't mean they won't occasionally enjoy competing at a lower level, or that they don't wish they could afford to do a bit more but that their other responsibilities have to come before that wish.

 

[McFluff]

In these situations 'compete' to me means only 'enter a competition' and 'winning' can be as little as 'the horse loaded, didn't dump me, and we both came home safe'.

You mean that isn't the definition of winning?!? 😜
It is for me

 

[milliepops]

but the thing is on the money thing that people could work hard and do without holidays, meals out etc and choose to have a horse with few major competitive ambitions because they can't afford the extra training but appreciate all the other things that their horse brings them as friend, therapist, reason to be out in the countryside etc. That doesn't mean they won't occasionally enjoy competing at a lower level, or that they don't wish they could afford to do a bit more but that their other responsibilities have to come before that wish.

totally agree, ester, but I thought PM had stated that those weren't really the people he had in mind when starting this thread. post #123