A musing, "Housewife" trainers, egos, and safety...

[KatB]

Reading the dangerous riding post got me thinking...

I have witnesses a lot of different people teaching, and having lessons in a variety of different situations. Some of those people I see having very regular lessons are, to put it bluntly, deluded. I believe this to be because of the "house wife" trainers they go to, eg those who have plenty of knowledge and experience, but would rather flatter riders than tell the truth and potentially lose the business....

So, these people are investing in what they believe to be training to improve themselves as riders, yet they're not being at all equipped to do things correctly because they're being told to some extent what the trainer believes they would like to hear, which means they keep going back to the trainer as they tell them how wonderful they are, which, lets be honest, we'd all like...

However, these people in my experience are the ones who when they have "bad" days on paper, blame the horse for being "grumpy" "unco-operative" "difficult" etc etc, because they have only been trained on improving the horse, and never been taught to imporve themselves...

So, do we think this is the fault of the trainer for not having the bravery to bite the bullet and tell pupils they need to improve, or the pupils for having a fragile ego and not being able to take criticism, and therefore causing trainers to teach in this "protected" manner?!

 

[PaddyMonty]

So, do we think this is the fault of the trainer for not having the bravery to bite the bullet and tell pupils they need to improve, or the pupils for having a fragile ego and not being able to take criticism, and therefore causing trainers to teach in this "protected" manner?!

None of the above.
I think its trainers who dont have the skill to teach. having the knowledge is not enough.
Putting out the message that things need to change without upsetting the client is not that difficult but it is a skill which many of todays instructors dont have.

 

[LEC]

or that they just keep changing trainer until they get what they want?

or the classic RC scenario is they go to so many trainers they have absolutely no consistency and never really improve despite having so many lessons.

I think you are generalising quite a lot. IME a lot of riders enjoy the lessons but not the actual bit afterwards which is the really hard work where you are by yourself and everything is hard and an uphill battle. A lot of riders are not prepared to do the work.

 

[KatB]

Yeah I am generalising LEC, but the people I have come across are really keen, work hard, but are just working hard in completely the wrong direction because of the trainers giving them no guidelines to work towards. For example, one girl I know has lessons with a very very well respected dressage trainer. She has almost weekly lessons, and has been being taught travers, half pass etc, yet has no idea of why she is being taught this, and has no idea on straightness, correctness in her own position, etc etc...

Paddymonty, I think you are right in a lot of cases, but do think a lot of the time trainers are too "nice" to keep the money rolling in...maybe I'm cynical

 

[Horsemad12]

But straightness is hard!

 

[KatB]

HM12, I know! BUT, it helps to be aware of it and not just taught the "tricks" with no idea of the basics...

 

[Kat]

I'm not really competing properly but if I went to a trainer and they told me that I was wonderful then I wouldn't go back again. I want a trainer to pick up my faults and improve me, that is what I pay them for. If they don't pick up on my faults then they either believe that I don't have any (in which case their skills are seriously lacking) or they believe I have faults but don't tell me in which case they aren't doing the job that they are being paid to do.

I can understand a trainer not wanting to rip a rider to shreds all in one go and maybe, for example, focussing on the hands and letting the legs go to an extent but to not pick up on faults at all is unacceptable.

 

[KatB]

Kat, it must be in the name...!! I'm exactly the same, and it's refreshing to watch lessons with people who are that confident in their methods they are blunt and stick by their principals, confident that their teaching will produce results. You can improve the rider without ripping them to pieces, but it's the lack of wanting to concentrate on the ridr at all which is what confuses me!

 

[be positive]

There are plenty of deluded people out there, many with fragile egos and trainers that seem to say what the rider wants to hear, it is easy to do, far easier to keep saying "thats super", "well done" etc throughout a lesson than to be critical and have to keep repeating exercises until it really is correct.

Last year a girl I taught stopped coming to me because I told her it was not the horse that kept "doing it wrong" when he was losing balance in medium trot and breaking but her getting the question wrong, asking too much of him so he could not remain in balance, she would not have it that she was in any way to blame, she kept on that it was his fault, why will he not get it right. I tried being tactful but the discussion was just going round in circles, it was not a case of the rider being at fault as such just needing to improve how they went about asking for what was required without apportioning blame, realising that part of learning is making mistakes and trying to work out how to do better.

When things do go "wrong" it is how the rider really learns and can move forward, if they never get told when something is really not as good as it could be will they ever be equipped to improve.

 

[Jane_Lou]

I totally agree with you. One friend was having lessons on her very talented and big moving horse with a local "name" and it seemed that in every lesson they were taught another "trick", the basics however were really shakey especially in relation to rider position and effectiveness. Within months all the movement was lost as the horse was incorrectly muscled for the work it was being asked to do and the rider was disillusioned.

In another example, someone who I help out on occassion and teach on my own horse every now and again, recently had a lesson with a new instructor who does a lot of clinics with local riding clubs. She is terribly crooked and has a habit of turning her body to the outside on a circle on one rein. Her little horse is a super schoolmaster who will do a nice tidy test up to elem with her other rider. This instructor told her that its not her, its the horse making her crooked, this is not the case as she is as crooked on my horse as she is on her own and trust me, my horses is NOT crooked, and frankly neither is hers. I saw some of the lesson and it was all so positive, everything was "well done", she finished the lesson on a high, yes, had she improved, no, did she book him again, yes. So I do think you are right KatB, there is a large element of "keeping the punter happy"

 

[Tempi]

I teach a lot of different people - whilst I do like to praise them, they also get told if I dont think they are ready to do something etc. I am also firm with the ones who have ambitions and lay it out to them in no uncertain terms what they need to achieve before they can, say, move up a level etc. I dont believe at just 'having a go' - the horse and rider both need to be ready and thats what I bring across in my training (well i hope so anyway)!

Ive also done a couple of demos on my horse for people that I teach to show them exactly what is required at the level they want to be competing at. For most its an eye opener, but it does make them work hard as it gives them something to aim for.

I dont beat around the bush, there is no point sugar coating something if the pupil wants to achieve their goals.

I've only ever taught one person who hasnt come back to me for more lessons, and she openly admitted she had been to numerous trainers over the last couple of months - she wanted everything all flowers and rainbows which she didnt get from me!

 

[ecrozier]

I also don't feel like I get much from a trainer who would just tell me we were doing great etc. I know enough to know that that isn't the case!
There is one local trainer, and it always makes me smile when anyone new goes to them, as they invariably come back and say '**** LOVED my horse' - well yes, they did, as saying that was a pretty good way to get you onside and coming back for more lessons call me a cynic....

 

[KatB]

Tempi, exactly! I think tbh it's lazy teaching if trainers can't/won't put in the effort to show the pupil how improvements can help them reach their goals!

I have also seen people get demoralised because according to their trainers they are doing everything right, yet things keep going wrong... they're the "good" people as they start to question why it is going wrong, whereas too many people start to blame it on something other than themselves because they're had it drummed into them so many times that everything they are doing is right...

 

[LEC]

I do not think what is mentioned above is about people being too nice it comes back to what PM says about them not teaching effectively. Many big names do not get their teaching exams and I think they sit their and think about the money rather than why they are doing it. It all comes back to - knowledge and trial. You cannot tell if another instructor is better unless you go and see a few. I wasted 6 months on a trainer where I basically learnt nothing but at the time I thought I was making progress. It was not until I went to another trainer that I realised the difference.

 

[Firewell]

None of the above.
I think its trainers who dont have the skill to teach. having the knowledge is not enough.
Putting out the message that things need to change without upsetting the client is not that difficult but it is a skill which many of todays instructors dont have.

This.

I know when a trainer is working as everything starts to fall into place. If it doesn't and I feel even more confused or that things just aren't getting better then no matter if the trainer is nice to me or nasty they are out the door. There's no point paying good money if i'm not noticing a difference, someone can tell me i'm brilliant but i'm not stupid, I know when i'm struggling and I know when i'm getting 'it'.

 

[kerilli]

I'm right with you KatB, and I think it's a bit of both.
I prefer a really exacting trainer, who concentrates most on me (continual corrections if necessary until better habits are formed) while guiding me on which exercises will help that horse at that time. Anyone who ignores my riding and concentrates totally on the horse is out - the better I ride, the better the horses will go, no brainer!
I think a real art to training is working out how pupil x needs to be taught, compared to pupil y. Strict or cajoling? Humorous or serious? Explanation or demonstration? I know how I learn best, and some trainers tune into this very fast. That's an art.
Teaching people who can't take any criticism, or even worse who argue back and blame it all on the horse, is infuriating. Seems to be a fairly modern thing - I'd never have dared!

 

[Princess Jess]

I totally agree that an instructor should have a bit of both! Yes I want them to pick up on everything I do wrong, but I personally also need to hear when I do something thats right (rare I know! )
I've had instructors that haven't said a single criticise of my riding in a whole hours private lesson , needless to say they didn't last long. Equally I had lessons with a guy who use to constantly criticise which was good but I found he never explained how to IMPROVE which I found frustrating as I already knew most of things I that I was doing wrong, but what I didn't know was how to fix them! He lasted quite a bit longer before I gave up and I've recently been having lessons with a lovely lady who can be a bit sharp but her criticism is accurate, she says when I'm doing something right and always tells me what else and how I can improve.

I think there are two types of instructors, those that are talented horsemen and those that are talented horsemen and can translate this into teaching (and obviously there are those that aren't very good at either, but we'll pretend they don't exist )

 

[kerilli]

Ha, you've reminded me of a lesson very long ago with someone who is still teaching (very high up in BHS now!) who spent the whole lesson saying "Lovely... that's lovely... yes, lovely... mmm.... lovely... yes, lovely" (repeat for 40 minutes) while my git of a horse pee'd about and headshook, until eventually I exclaimed "it's not Lovely, it's flipping horrible, how do I make it better?!" at which point he was struck dumb and came up with... nothing! He's now a BHS examiner too, always makes me laugh.
Someone who has the knowledge and patience to tell you HOW to improve it is a real find.

 

[Firewell]

Hee hee, some pearls from lessons I've had in the past include...

'it's not your fault no one has ever told you how to ride'
'Stick a bungie on it'
'your horse is the reason I hate mares, they just don't try'
'Have you tried draw reins?'

Some amazing pearls include
'Imagine the top of your arms are like drainpipes' (amazing! Suddenly my arms bent at the elbow!).
'square up the corners'
'Think of your legs like they are pendulums'
'sit on your pony tail' - to get me to look up and sit straight


I think trainers who can give an image of what they mean work best for me. I do think pupils have to take responsibilty for their learning as well though.

 

[SusieT]

You catch more flies with honey.. as a trainer if you tell ther ider they are crap their confidence is dented, they leave you, go elsewhere or don't have lessons at all. if you play to their positive sides, compliment them and try to train them positively-I think a lot of lay people are unable to comprehend this adn think everythig should be sorted out right now, when that's not the case.

 

[Spanish Eyes]

As a freelance teacher myself, and one that has also done my time as a University Lecturer (in degree level subjects other than riding) I would argue that one of the key skills in becoming a good instructor is to really know your pupil and their learning style. Some take constructive criticism well and some respond to firm but fair handling, but some (generally those who lack confidence in their own riding) need to be handled more gently and be rewarded for each little try. Some need to be shown, some need visualisation. None should be patronised. All deserve to be treated with respect.

A bit like horses really

 

[Jenni_]

This is why I only teach kids They do as they're told!

A good trainer should be able to suss out how their client wants taught, and how to imporve them whilst keeping them happy. I will admit, there are some nut jobs that you just can't criticise - but I wouldn't teach them personally. Do nothing for your reputation as a trainer.

I personally, like a trainer to rip ME to shreds. to put me back together piece by piece, and after every piece, explain to me what has got better in the going of the horse. Or haul me off the horse, get on and mimic the pieces so I can SEE, if you know what I mean.

A good trainer will praise when the pieces come together, and explain the fundementals. There's more to riding than the movements, and when I'm being taught I like to know about the physiology behind it too - and it takes a REALLY good trainer who has the knowledge / patience to teach you this too. Like, something as basic as how can the horses neck be supple, if the jaw is tight? I like to know 'how' and 'why' something works. I like to be pushed too, as sometimes I can lack confidence.

I'd feel jilted if I paid £45 for an instructor to tell me my horse looked good in a basic outline. Right, well if we've mastered that, PUSH us.

 

[BeckyD]

Not enough instructors concentrate on the rider. I used to have lessons with my previous horse with a lady who taught just about everyone at my yard. I didn't warm to her but I persevered, but in about 2 years or so of lessons, she only once said I needed to make a tweak to my position... Yeah right, like I'm THAT good

So, she went! I then got another instructor who also focussed on the horse. Lovely lovely teacher/person and I would never have left them, if I hadn't started having intermittent lessons with someone else who was better - suited my horse more perhaps. This is my current flat instructor, but even so, positional pointers are nothing like as regular as I want. I want to be DRILLED! I want to get it right. I don't want to be going round in circles still looking as cr*p as I did 6 months ago!

And to be honest, I think a lot of pupils are like me, and we CAN take the cold hard truth. Sure, we might pull a face or groan, but it's a groan at ourselves, not at the instructor. "why can't I get it right?" is the thought that goes through my head constantly when I'm riding. Let's face it, it really isn't rocket science and if you can't face your mistakes, frankly you should be doing something else. Humility has to be the most important thing around horses.

Sorry, I have strong feelings on the matter

 

[MadisonBelle]

Not enough instructors concentrate on the rider. I used to have lessons with my previous horse with a lady who taught just about everyone at my yard. I didn't warm to her but I persevered, but in about 2 years or so of lessons, she only once said I needed to make a tweak to my position... Yeah right, like I'm THAT good

So, she went! I then got another instructor who also focussed on the horse. Lovely lovely teacher/person and I would never have left them, if I hadn't started having intermittent lessons with someone else who was better - suited my horse more perhaps. This is my current flat instructor, but even so, positional pointers are nothing like as regular as I want. I want to be DRILLED! I want to get it right. I don't want to be going round in circles still looking as cr*p as I did 6 months ago!

And to be honest, I think a lot of pupils are like me, and we CAN take the cold hard truth. Sure, we might pull a face or groan, but it's a groan at ourselves, not at the instructor. "why can't I get it right?" is the thought that goes through my head constantly when I'm riding. Let's face it, it really isn't rocket science and if you can't face your mistakes, frankly you should be doing something else. Humility has to be the most important thing around horses.

Sorry, I have strong feelings on the matter

THIS!!!

I have a lovely flatwork instructor and boy she makes me work!

I'm struggling with my jumping tho' Have a lovely mare who more often than not goes clear. It's just cos she is fab tho. A friend does help who has been there, got the t-shirt and he has done everything right to set this horse up. I'm very lucky as she is very genuine with scope but I really do need to be told that I overfold, give too early, don't set up etc cos one day lovely mare will realise she is doing it all by herself..............

I have tried some "proper" instructors but it's been a waste of money as I get more out of my friend who helps me for free! He's just not an instructor thought so solely focuses on the horse......

It's very difficult.

 

[kerilli]

You catch more flies with honey.. as a trainer if you tell ther ider they are crap their confidence is dented, they leave you, go elsewhere or don't have lessons at all. if you play to their positive sides, compliment them and try to train them positively-I think a lot of lay people are unable to comprehend this adn think everythig should be sorted out right now, when that's not the case.

But there are many shades of grey between out and out slating (which nobody needs) and unfounded, unjustified flattery. Nobody should ever say "you're crap", but "you need to work on this", "you're not ready for x yet", should be acceptable.
Nobody is saying that everything can be "sorted out right now", but if one thing gets sorted first, it should be the basics of the rider's position, since that is the crux of everything, no?
As for positive training - of course it is nice to get a compliment for a good bit but, for me, when I have really earned it, when I finally get an "A-ha!" from my trainer (high praise indeed), THEN I know all the effort was worth it. If he had spent the previous half an hour saying "that's good" or "lovely" when it wasn't, I wouldn't believe it when I did get a word of praise, if that makes sense. Those odd moments of total affirmation are what teaches that elusive 'feel'... if you're continually told it's good when it isn't (yet), how will you be able to tell when it really is?!?!
Maybe I'm just weird. I like being criticised, it makes me raise my game.

 

[BeckyD]

Maybe I'm just weird. I like being criticised, it makes me raise my game.

Ditto. And it makes the "good" comments meaningful.

 

[kerilli]

Ditto. And it makes the "good" comments meaningful.

Yes, exactly, that's what I was trying to get at. Getting compliments from my trainer is like getting blood out of a stone, so when he does say something really positive I know the horse is going REALLY well, not just acceptably!

I suspect that having no ego at all helps too...

 

[HotToTrot]

I think that it shouldn't be too hard to get the balance right between criticism and encouragement.

I have started to have a few jump lessons with a trainer recommended to me by someone on here - the first time I saw him, I got: "This isn't good enough. We teach our five yr olds this." (A propos of the horse falling out like mad through his shoulder.) I knew this.... but he's a showjumper, with correspondingly showjumperish habits, and he jumps anyway, so I slightly ignored it. Not any more! But I also got: "He'll jump anything. Literally." Which I also know!

I think the criticism made the praise easier to believe. Anyone can tell me what a jump my horse has, but, as others have said, it's meaningless if you're being praised for the sake of it!

 

[frannieuk]

I think some of the issue is where there is no distinct goal and assessment process between an instructor and a client. I reckon the best instructors are those who identify the goals and stages to achieve them, and then work on sequentially getting through to the goal but with frequent assessment - otherwise it can feel as though the same thing happens week in week out and little improvement is made - because you're working on the same things, you don't notice the progress. My current trainer is really good at this, and (for example) we've worked hard on straightness - at the beginning of each session with her, I ride my warmup and then we do some lateral work, and then assess the straightness (both horse and rider!) - this helps me identify improvement and what I need to keep building on. It takes A LOT of time to make proper changes to both my riding and my horse, but the frequent assessment helps me see progress!
Not sure this is particualrly clearly written but I hope you get my drift; for me, a trainer who doesn't explain the steps of progression or WHY I'm doing things, doesn't work.

ETA - the balance between stick and carrot (for me!) is also important and I suspect, achieving this for each pupil is perhaps the hardest thing about being an instructor!

 

[TableDancer]

I think a real art to training is working out how pupil x needs to be taught, compared to pupil y. Strict or cajoling? Humorous or serious? Explanation or demonstration? I know how I learn best, and some trainers tune into this very fast. That's an art.

I think some of the issue is where there is no distinct goal and assessment process between an instructor and a client. I reckon the best instructors are those who identify the goals and stages to achieve them, and then work on sequentially getting through to the goal but with frequent assessment - otherwise it can feel as though the same thing happens week in week out...

I think both of these are spot on. I also agree with those who said that the balancd between carrot and stick is key, and also the need to focus primarily on what the rider is doing to help the horse rather than vice versa.

I have really got a lot out of some of the modern coaching stuff, combined with the personal awareness/influencing skills training I was given in a former incarnation, and I think this approach is hugely helpful in improvng training standards. That said, I also think there is a growing problem of a large number of "coaches" being produced through the BHS system who are big on the "patter" and short on technical expertise, which is, of course, just as important...