Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind.
Just sayin'
Very good ,I have enjoyed this thread .
A musing, "Housewife" trainers, egos, and safety...
- Thread starter KatB
- Start date
Very good ,I have enjoyed this thread .
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Btw, we call them 'ass patters' in the Colonies.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Don't want to hijack, but Kerilli - feel like passing that on?
Happy to, I've mentioned it a few times on here, I am VERY anti secrecy about things 'good riders do'.
Basically you just exaggerate the way your pelvis moves as the horse walks, really let it go up and down and side to side, and then freeze it in a fairly exaggerated way, just stop moving it totally. Most horses will go 'ooh' and stop immediately too, some need a few goes and maybe a 'whoa' or a touch on the reins... but it does need to be a touch, because the whole point is that you're teaching the horse to listen to your pelvis and torso, not your hands.
obv praise the moment it works. repeat a few times. eventually you don't have to emphasise it so much, just the 'stop' is enough. works like a charm canter to halt too... tbh there's no way you can do canter-to-halt on the hand imho, you need to engage with the legs and then stop with the pelvis/seat to get the transition soft, balanced, and in 1 stride.
another 'thing good riders do', i think: weighting the seatbone they want the horse to travel towards, in lateral work. a big (but subtle-looking) aid. 99% of horses will try to step under your weight. that's what i was taught anyway, and it seems to work!
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Gingey2
Member
Haven't read the whole of this cos i don't have time, just the first page or two- but I totally agree with Kat and KatB that I do not want to be told I'm brilliant by an instructor- cos I know it's not true and like others have said, I want someone to improve me not massage my ego.
I think my current horse has really really helped my riding, and my instructor agrees, because although he has all the scope in the world, because he is not naturally the most confident horse, he really requires me to ride properly. 99% of the time now, if I am doing the right thing in terms of position, balance etc, he will go beautifully, because me asking in the correct way gives him the confidence to go. So from that POV, he has taught me as much as some instructors, because he MAKES me ride better! Even if it has occasionally been a bit of trial and error, and of course lots of help from my instructor about how to 'push the right buttons'.
In terms of trainer attitude, I would MUCH rather someone ripped me apart rather than my horse- because a) I understand English a lot better than the horse and therefore it's so much easier for someone to tell me that I have a fault that i can then try my hardest to correct. And b) because I only have one horse, and it's very demoralising to be told that he's rubbish..don't mind someone telling me I'm rubbish cos it's generally true!
One of the best lessons I've had with a trainer other than my own was with a well known PC/RC coach with a wealth of experience. It was an XC lesson, which I hadn't really had many of at the time, despite doing hunter trials, lots of schooling etc etc. We spent over half of the session working solely on the flat, working on rider position- she didn't let anything slip at all, was blunt about any faults that she could see, and it was just great! Within minutes, or sometimes seconds, of her making an adjustment to my position, my horse would go a little bit better, until after about half an hour (despite not leaving the ground at all!), I felt like I had an absolute machine underneath me, with a bold, adjustable canter, and like we could tackle anything- as opposed to what I normally had, a fit, athletic horse who was trying his best to please me but who lacked style and confidence. Sure enough, by the time we did get round to some jumping, that was definitely the best we'd jumped, because I was suddenly riding so much better after she'd basically ripped my position to shreds- and my horse responded accordingly. Our XC has just gone strength to strength after that.
Definitely agree each to their own though- and if someone was just flat out mean I don't think I'd like that I think part of the reason the above trainer was so good was because she probably knew that she could stand to lose a client or two if they couldn't take it, because the vast majority really respected her and appreciated her opinion- good or bad! It also meant that because she was quite blunt, her just saying 'That was good' meant a hell of a lot more than someone gushing every time we took a step, because she obviously meant it
Oops, sorry for the essay.
and like others have said, I want someone to improve me not massage my ego.I think my current horse has really really helped my riding, and my instructor agrees, because although he has all the scope in the world, because he is not naturally the most confident horse, he really requires me to ride properly. 99% of the time now, if I am doing the right thing in terms of position, balance etc, he will go beautifully, because me asking in the correct way gives him the confidence to go. So from that POV, he has taught me as much as some instructors, because he MAKES me ride better! Even if it has occasionally been a bit of trial and error, and of course lots of help from my instructor about how to 'push the right buttons'.
In terms of trainer attitude, I would MUCH rather someone ripped me apart rather than my horse- because a) I understand English a lot better than the horse
and therefore it's so much easier for someone to tell me that I have a fault that i can then try my hardest to correct. And b) because I only have one horse, and it's very demoralising to be told that he's rubbish..don't mind someone telling me I'm rubbish cos it's generally true! One of the best lessons I've had with a trainer other than my own was with a well known PC/RC coach with a wealth of experience. It was an XC lesson, which I hadn't really had many of at the time, despite doing hunter trials, lots of schooling etc etc. We spent over half of the session working solely on the flat, working on rider position- she didn't let anything slip at all, was blunt about any faults that she could see, and it was just great!
Within minutes, or sometimes seconds, of her making an adjustment to my position, my horse would go a little bit better, until after about half an hour (despite not leaving the ground at all!), I felt like I had an absolute machine underneath me, with a bold, adjustable canter, and like we could tackle anything- as opposed to what I normally had, a fit, athletic horse who was trying his best to please me but who lacked style and confidence. Sure enough, by the time we did get round to some jumping, that was definitely the best we'd jumped, because I was suddenly riding so much better after she'd basically ripped my position to shreds- and my horse responded accordingly. Our XC has just gone strength to strength after that.Definitely agree each to their own though- and if someone was just flat out mean I don't think I'd like that
I think part of the reason the above trainer was so good was because she probably knew that she could stand to lose a client or two if they couldn't take it, because the vast majority really respected her and appreciated her opinion- good or bad! It also meant that because she was quite blunt, her just saying 'That was good' meant a hell of a lot more than someone gushing every time we took a step, because she obviously meant it Oops, sorry for the essay.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Go on then Gingey2, please tell us who this trainer is. I think we need a "Name and Praise" culture on this board!
I'm totally with you on trainers liking your horse, I can't stand a trainer who dismisses a horse because it's not a total worldbeater (or whatever). Some trainers, maybe because of personal disappointments etc, seem to hate horses, and I avoid that sort like the plague...
I'm totally with you on trainers liking your horse, I can't stand a trainer who dismisses a horse because it's not a total worldbeater (or whatever). Some trainers, maybe because of personal disappointments etc, seem to hate horses, and I avoid that sort like the plague...
lme
Well-Known Member
Couldn't agree more. We have never been back to a local trainer who my daughter had a lesson with @ pony club because he referred to her mare as 'it' and appeared to view her a piece of sports equipment that was mal-functioning rather than 50% of a partnership.
A lovely GP dressage trainer, who my mare had a lesson with last week quickly checked whether she was a he or a she before asking how old she was & what she'd done previously at the start of the lesson. He was exacting & really made her work, but it was a positive experience
WeeBrown
Well-Known Member
Telling me I was rubbish when I was rubbish was my criteria when looking for a riding school about 7 years ago. I said exactly that to the owner and he said "You've come to the right place" Loved it and only left when he retired. My current instructor also likes to tell me how it is and never lets me away with anything. I totally agree with Lec who said that we need to put in the effort between lessons, that's my greatest downfall.
Loved it and only left when he retired. My current instructor also likes to tell me how it is and never lets me away with anything. I totally agree with Lec who said that we need to put in the effort between lessons, that's my greatest downfall.
TGM
Well-Known Member
The trouble is, it isn't always that easy to find an alternative instructor/trainer. If you are the only one on a yard wanting tuition, are restricted in when you can have lessons and perhaps can't transport to another venue, then sometimes you have to stick to the only person who is willing to come out to you! (Because the best people are in great demand so are busy and can be picky). I've been in situations before when I've had to continue with an instructor who I haven't be totally satisfied with, on the basis that some lessons are better than none at all! (Obviously, wouldn't do this if I thought the tuition was unsafe or detrimental to the horse though).
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Yes, but why is this different than any other area of life? There is no independent Land Rover dealer near me, so I have to choose between travelling, using the expensive dealership, or taking my chances with the local places, which may be licensed but we all know that's no guarantee!
I do understand the rant, that good instruction is hard to find, although I can't see instructors 'doing something' about that collectively. But the original point was not about people not having a choice, it was about some people actively choosing unchallenging teachers, for whatever reasons. I still think this is a) not black and white and b) personal choice.
I do understand the rant, that good instruction is hard to find, although I can't see instructors 'doing something' about that collectively. But the original point was not about people not having a choice, it was about some people actively choosing unchallenging teachers, for whatever reasons. I still think this is a) not black and white and b) personal choice.
KatB
Well-Known Member
Tarrsteps, it wasn't a rant, more a musing
My main issue is that, as LEC has mentioned on here, you can have lessons with someone based on their "reputation" and will trust they know what they are doing and will help you progress, and it's only if crcumstances change that you realise actually they were less than helpful, and missing out key bits of information, or explanations which would help you progress a lot quicker and in a more structured way...
Whether this is due to consciously wanting to increase dependancy on them, lack of teaching ability, or any number of possibilities, it confuses me and frustrates me when you see capable people who are "sucked in" but then given the wrong tools... and I have been one of these people (though probably less of the capable!!) which frustrates me!
It's not about judging people, it's not about riders abilities, it is whether these teaching methods survive due to people's egos, or lack of knowledge and a lot of trust in someone who should "know better" and whether this is contributing to putting people in unsafe situations....
My main issue is that, as LEC has mentioned on here, you can have lessons with someone based on their "reputation" and will trust they know what they are doing and will help you progress, and it's only if crcumstances change that you realise actually they were less than helpful, and missing out key bits of information, or explanations which would help you progress a lot quicker and in a more structured way...
Whether this is due to consciously wanting to increase dependancy on them, lack of teaching ability, or any number of possibilities, it confuses me and frustrates me when you see capable people who are "sucked in" but then given the wrong tools... and I have been one of these people (though probably less of the capable!!) which frustrates me!
It's not about judging people, it's not about riders abilities, it is whether these teaching methods survive due to people's egos, or lack of knowledge and a lot of trust in someone who should "know better" and whether this is contributing to putting people in unsafe situations....
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
I have a theory on that.... Nowadays I dont really want to train with anyone unless they are both already at the top if their game (or have been) but yet are still of a learning mindset theirselves. maybe easy for me to say as I found both Lucy Thompson and Francis whittington in my area but u do have to make the effort to go to them of course. For dressage it generally means clinics with a couple of amazing but non competitive folk (french classical). I went through a good few trainers before sticking with these! ... But a little part if me will always want multiple trainers to get different perspectives on things, tho I think the ones I have chosen are sufficiently similar in their outlook that they are in fact complimentary rather than me and neddy finding any differences confusing.... I for one am definitely a fussy customer
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Yes, but why is this different than any other area of life? There is no independent Land Rover dealer near me, so I have to choose between travelling, using the expensive dealership, or taking my chances with the local places, which may be licensed but we all know that's no guarantee!
I do understand the rant, that good instruction is hard to find, although I can't see instructors 'doing something' about that collectively. But the original point was not about people not having a choice, it was about some people actively choosing unchallenging teachers, for whatever reasons. I still think this is a) not black and white and b) personal choice.
Hmm... for possibly the one and only time in my life, I'm going to disagree with TS. In most other areas of life, if you go to 'the best', you will get the best. BUT there are SO many variables with instructors (and pupils, let alone their horses!) that I don't think you are guaranteed to get the best for you, at the time from an instructor even if s/he has an absolutely stellar reputation.
I know this personally, having been trained by a very very good trainer for a good while... looking back, at the time I was just not good enough to get anything like the best out of his lessons... e.g. my sitting trot was, frankly, crap. I hadn't yet learned how to let go and absorb the movement - and because I knew this, because I worried about my sitting trot (since it felt awful), it got even worse. How the hell could the poor guy teach me how to train my horse to do a good half-pass in trot, or a good medium, or extended, when I was still tensing up and struggling just to sit correctly and absorb the movement in working trot? Not his fault, not my fault, just terrible timing...
Now, I hope I would be able to get a lot more out of his lessons. I think he did his absolute best at the time. I tried really really hard, spent a lot of time and money (and diesel, he was a 6 hour round trip away, I used to go and stay locally for a week or two and cram in as much training as I could, I was very determined and dedicated) and I had a good horse or two. I'd produced the horses to Int and Adv, with lots of input from him... and I didn't look like a totally useless muppet...
But the day he threw his hands in the air and said "It's no good, I just can't teach you 'feel'" and I sat there crying with frustration and fury at myself... crikey, I hope I never go there again with anyone!
Fortunately I found a different trainer who COULD teach me that. Painstakingly, patiently, calmly, someone who never got exasperated by my inability to feel it YET, who was happy to explain everything, to carefully critique a whole lesson in walk... and I think that kind of training is an art too. Not all trainers would have the patience for it, just as not all can do the 'icing on the cake' to make a good rider great, which I think some 'top' trainers excel at.
Sorry, that's turned all very 'me me me me MEEEE' but the point is that when you are viewing the situation subjectively, and perhaps you're inexperienced, you absolutely cannot judge how good a trainer is for you (and your horse). With trainer 1, I was improving, The horses were improving. We were getting decent/good results. I had no way of knowing that i needed x (the other trainer, basically!) before I could truly progress...
Going back to TS's second paragraph, I don't think it's about 'people actively choosing unchallenging teachers' - maybe they respect them, believe them, and so when the trainer says 'that's great, really good, yes, great' a lot, they believe it. Which is great if you're under-confident, don't get me wrong, but if it's not the truth then it's going to lead to disappointments (or accidents, worst case scenario.)
TableDancer
Well-Known Member
While I hate disagreeing with TarrSteps, or let's call it "varying" , I do see the OP's point. I accept that it is not black and white, and it is down to personal choice, and all those points which I made earlier... However, it is a source of great frustration to me when I see people locally, both privately and through eg PCs and RCs, using sub-optimal instructors - not because they are aware of the options and have made an informed choice, but because the market is fragmented and confusing, and they find it hard to know what the right choice is! How often have people had their first lesson with you, TS, and been blown away and said things like "That was amazing, I had no idea it could be like this!"? I know it has often happened to me...
I don't have a solution, but I do acknowledge the problem
, I do see the OP's point. I accept that it is not black and white, and it is down to personal choice, and all those points which I made earlier... However, it is a source of great frustration to me when I see people locally, both privately and through eg PCs and RCs, using sub-optimal instructors - not because they are aware of the options and have made an informed choice, but because the market is fragmented and confusing, and they find it hard to know what the right choice is! How often have people had their first lesson with you, TS, and been blown away and said things like "That was amazing, I had no idea it could be like this!"? I know it has often happened to me... I don't have a solution, but I do acknowledge the problem
KatB
Well-Known Member
Exactly
KatB
Well-Known Member
Thanks TD, that's exactly it
I see some fantastic (much better than I!) riders who get frustrated because they aren't improving their marks in dressage, have weekly lessons, etc etc, do the homework they've been set and are getting ok results, but are always wanting to improve. I watch them, and relate back to things I have been picked up on by the people who have really made a difference to me, and think "why haven't they been told that by doing x, y and z, (simple, basic things) they will improve this and that" and the things they aren't being told about are things that we all know as partially educated riders, but sometimes slip on through bad habits, and need the person on the ground to point out, and yet it's not happening!!
I see some fantastic (much better than I!) riders who get frustrated because they aren't improving their marks in dressage, have weekly lessons, etc etc, do the homework they've been set and are getting ok results, but are always wanting to improve. I watch them, and relate back to things I have been picked up on by the people who have really made a difference to me, and think "why haven't they been told that by doing x, y and z, (simple, basic things) they will improve this and that" and the things they aren't being told about are things that we all know as partially educated riders, but sometimes slip on through bad habits, and need the person on the ground to point out, and yet it's not happening!!
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
I can only comment on our RC but money is an important factor in decision making of which instructors they use.
At RC camps everything has to come in at a certain budget and that means using instructors who are fine and good with the confidence but perhaps not the detail. TBF one group had a wonderful instructor who would not let them out of walk the whole hour and they really improved but a) they did not recognise this improvement and b) they were bored out of their minds!
I do feel there is a gap in great training and have set up a Facebook page to put together good value group lessons with instructors who I think are really good in the SW. I think I have also finally got the format of group lessons right as do it on my own preferences. Jumping is now 90 mins with 4 in a group and flatwork an hour with 3 in a group. I have found you can have a very good lesson which is good value with those sizes/group numbers.
At RC camps everything has to come in at a certain budget and that means using instructors who are fine and good with the confidence but perhaps not the detail. TBF one group had a wonderful instructor who would not let them out of walk the whole hour and they really improved but a) they did not recognise this improvement and b) they were bored out of their minds!
I do feel there is a gap in great training and have set up a Facebook page to put together good value group lessons with instructors who I think are really good in the SW. I think I have also finally got the format of group lessons right as do it on my own preferences. Jumping is now 90 mins with 4 in a group and flatwork an hour with 3 in a group. I have found you can have a very good lesson which is good value with those sizes/group numbers.
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kerilli
Well-Known Member
Haha oh dear. This is the thing... some riders would have LOVED that. Very very difficult judgement call to make, especially in a group!
TGM
Well-Known Member
Personally, I don't think that is the best approach for a RC group lesson, although it might be perfect for one-to-one sessions.
We had a similar situation at a PC Rally on a freezing cold day in an outdoor school where the instructor only worked the C test children in walk and trot. On top of that, she started instructing one child at a time at a circle at one end, whilst the others were instructed to stand in a line at the other end. Result being very bored, cold and fidgety ponies and riders!
I think even if an instructor is excellent for private lessons, there are additional skills required when teaching groups, particularly where the individuals in that group may have not chosen the instructor personally (ie as in PC and RC rallies, as opposed to group clinics with a named instructor). Also there can be a huge variety of levels of interest and dedication in such groups - ranging from those who really want to learn to ride properly through to those who have tagged along because their friend/sibling is doing it. Really skilled instructors can drill the more motivated ones in an exacting manner whilst still keeping the less motivated ones interested.
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thetrainer'smissus
Member
Good thread - if a little "trainer-bashing".
No-one has mentioned an important point, which is that every rider and every horse has a personal limit. No-one has a bottomless bucket of talent which they just need a good trainer to tap into for unlimited success all the way through the levels.
Many riders who have regular training are very limited in ability - indeed many of them have no talent or "feel" at all and have got into horses without realising this (or wanting to be told it). Combine this lack of talent with a big budget for horses and success in other walks of life and you are giving the trainer a very very difficult task.
Trainers have to develop a sixth sense of what riders really want, and the fact is what a lot of them want is their ass patting, the horse adoring and to show off to their friends - in other words they are looking for validation of their choices and are willing to pay for it. And you know what? That's OK.
There's a trainer for everyone and trainers vote with their feet too! It is extremely unrewarding to teach people described above and just as many clients are quietly dropped by their trainer (and enabled to think it was they who did the dropping) as trainers are dropped by clients.
No-one has mentioned an important point, which is that every rider and every horse has a personal limit. No-one has a bottomless bucket of talent which they just need a good trainer to tap into for unlimited success all the way through the levels.
Many riders who have regular training are very limited in ability - indeed many of them have no talent or "feel" at all and have got into horses without realising this (or wanting to be told it). Combine this lack of talent with a big budget for horses and success in other walks of life and you are giving the trainer a very very difficult task.
Trainers have to develop a sixth sense of what riders really want, and the fact is what a lot of them want is their ass patting, the horse adoring and to show off to their friends - in other words they are looking for validation of their choices and are willing to pay for it. And you know what? That's OK.
There's a trainer for everyone and trainers vote with their feet too! It is extremely unrewarding to teach people described above and just as many clients are quietly dropped by their trainer (and enabled to think it was they who did the dropping) as trainers are dropped by clients.
charlie76
Well-Known Member
I train with higher level trainers than me, go to lectures, read, compete, watch riders in the warm up and generally keep up with my own personal development. I put everything into my teaching and usually end of exhausted after teaching ! I actually get frustrated that the names seem to be able to charge the earth and attract the masses for mediocre lessons whereas I struggle to attract consistent people even with my qualifications and without sounding too big headed was told at ny last teaching exam that my lesson was the best they had seen.
was told at ny last teaching exam that my lesson was the best they had seen.wench
Well-Known Member
Well if you want names of good trainers - I went to a couple of sessions on Henry to Vikki Hayton in West Markham. She was very very good, and my horse improved no end with just those two lessons. Unfortunatly events didn't go my way, and I didn't get to carry on with her.
HOWEVER
Long term I couldnt have realistically had regular lessons with her, mainly due to cost and time. I had to take days off work to go for lessons, as they have a riding school at the weekend, and not much room to park - therefore manovring lorry sized 4x4 and trailer around their yard with loads of cars everywhere would not have made my life easy. Second - cost of fuel. Lesson + fuel was costing me around £70. As I was not working towards anything in particular (ie a 1* event dressage test), I simply couldnt justify the cost of it.
I found someone more local, whom perhaps wasn't quite as good, but when the fuel was only costing me around £6/7 a time, it was a lot more affordable. Mind I still didnt get out to lessons much then, as money was tight, and to put it quite bluntly, I couldnt be bothered to drive to the yard, sort out the trailer. Have someone then park behind my trailer so I couldnt get horse in (RS!) drive to lesson, do lesson, drive home, sort horse out, drive home, then go to work in the pub.
Sounds lazy, but just got fed up of it. Ideally I would have liked an instructor to come to me (but couldnt because of the RS). Even if perhaps they weren't the best instructor in the world, I really did need help. If I could have done this, it would have made going to someone like Vikki once every couple of months or so more worth while I believe.
HOWEVER
Long term I couldnt have realistically had regular lessons with her, mainly due to cost and time. I had to take days off work to go for lessons, as they have a riding school at the weekend, and not much room to park - therefore manovring lorry sized 4x4 and trailer around their yard with loads of cars everywhere would not have made my life easy. Second - cost of fuel. Lesson + fuel was costing me around £70. As I was not working towards anything in particular (ie a 1* event dressage test), I simply couldnt justify the cost of it.
I found someone more local, whom perhaps wasn't quite as good, but when the fuel was only costing me around £6/7 a time, it was a lot more affordable. Mind I still didnt get out to lessons much then, as money was tight, and to put it quite bluntly, I couldnt be bothered to drive to the yard, sort out the trailer. Have someone then park behind my trailer so I couldnt get horse in (RS!) drive to lesson, do lesson, drive home, sort horse out, drive home, then go to work in the pub.
Sounds lazy, but just got fed up of it. Ideally I would have liked an instructor to come to me (but couldnt because of the RS). Even if perhaps they weren't the best instructor in the world, I really did need help. If I could have done this, it would have made going to someone like Vikki once every couple of months or so more worth while I believe.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Technically, TD and kerilli, I don't think we disagree - I'm also confused and disheartened to see people receiving poor instruction that endangers them and/or harms the horse. Me, of all people!?!?
But I still maintain it's an unfortunate fact of life in many areas, not some specifically horsey failing.
Also, as a few brave souls have pointed out, it isn't always as simple as the trainer being rubbish. Riding instruction is a contract entered into by two consenting adults. Even in the case of PC there are parents and supervisors involved. People pick their trainers for various reasons, some of which might have very little to do with improving their riding.
But I still maintain it's an unfortunate fact of life in many areas, not some specifically horsey failing.
Also, as a few brave souls have pointed out, it isn't always as simple as the trainer being rubbish.
Riding instruction is a contract entered into by two consenting adults. Even in the case of PC there are parents and supervisors involved. People pick their trainers for various reasons, some of which might have very little to do with improving their riding.
TGM
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone would disagree with that and "ass-patting" happens in many areas of life. But on a practical basis, if "ass-patting" happens in a violin lesson, or tennis coaching, it is far less likely to have serious consequences than in a potentially dangerous sport like horse-riding.
meardsall_millie
Well-Known Member
Yes but equally we have to stop trying to nanny everyone, realise that people generally have a modicum of common sense and (assuming they've got past the 'up down up down' stage of learning to ride) have enough nouse to take some responsibility for their own actions and stop trying to blame everything that goes wrong on everyone but themselves.
KatB
Well-Known Member
Yep agree with that too m_m, as I said in the op, quite often these people are the ones who blame everything on everything...but themselves...that's why its a difficult one all round I guess!!
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I suspect some are also the sort of people who, even if they know full well they were at least partially to blame for it going wrong, then throw their hands in the air with an 'I'm so rubbish!'. The catch is what they really want then is for the instructor to play the part of supportive friend and unequivocally argue the opposite.
This is one of the real tricks if teaching, combining support abane realism, in the right amounts at the appropriate times.
This is one of the real tricks if teaching, combining support abane realism, in the right amounts at the appropriate times.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
One of the most important things I learned and I wish I had sussed it earlier was how to be trained you have to learn how to learn , I think that where a lot of people who don't progress go wrong .
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I apologise profusely for my indecipherable post above! My only excuse was I was recovering in the Luton Services from a 2 hr crawl up the M1.
TGM
Well-Known Member
I do agree that the buck stops with the rider and the ultimate responsibility lies with them. But I do think that trainers still have some moral responsibility - to use an extreme example if a client's horse is rushing at XC fences like a headless chicken and just scraping round BE100, the trainer shouldn't be assuring them it is "all lovely dear, I think you are ready to step up to Novice"!
To be fair though, most jumping trainers I have encountered seem to be direct and forthright - the only blatant "ass-patting" I have seen has been in dressage lessons, where the consequences of poor advice are less dangerous.
I know someone said earlier that this all smacks of 'trainer bashing' but I don't think that is the intention of anyone posting on this thread. There are lots of fantastic instructors and trainers out there, and discussing some of the problems in the rider/trainer relationship is not meant to distract from the great work that the majority do.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Two points. . .
No one is safe riding a horse. Ever.
If we're talking about jumping, people do have to start somewhere. I would prefer everyone start on a good, appropriate horse under controlled circumstances. But many people do not share this view and choose to get their mileage on the horse they have/love/can afford. As a trainer, faced with someone on such a horse, my first instinct is to say get rid but obviously easier said than done!
Which brings me to the next point - we now operate in a culture where plain speaking is often confused with interfering criticism. Riding, at least competing, used to be a much more informal closed shop. Most people who rode had ridden as children, usually with people only marginally removed from the military. It was certainly not a 'service industry'! And there were always a few old timers around - often judges or similar - who were not shy at all about sharing their views. You shut up and took it. These people were often involved in Team selection or similar, too,.so you ignored at your peril. It wasn't a prefect system by any means but it was more communal.
That simply would not fly now. It's not anyone's fault, it just is.
No one is safe riding a horse. Ever.
If we're talking about jumping, people do have to start somewhere. I would prefer everyone start on a good, appropriate horse under controlled circumstances. But many people do not share this view and choose to get their mileage on the horse they have/love/can afford. As a trainer, faced with someone on such a horse, my first instinct is to say get rid but obviously easier said than done!
Which brings me to the next point - we now operate in a culture where plain speaking is often confused with interfering criticism. Riding, at least competing, used to be a much more informal closed shop. Most people who rode had ridden as children, usually with people only marginally removed from the military. It was certainly not a 'service industry'! And there were always a few old timers around - often judges or similar - who were not shy at all about sharing their views. You shut up and took it. These people were often involved in Team selection or similar, too,.so you ignored at your peril. It wasn't a prefect system by any means but it was more communal.
That simply would not fly now. It's not anyone's fault, it just is.