A musing, "Housewife" trainers, egos, and safety...

Not read all the replies but think there is a big issue with unqualified and therefore uninsured trainers out there! Having witnessed some of these 'teaching' I was horrified and have to admit there was the pandering to the pupil which TBH I've never had using a variety of qualified instructors.
 
As someone who used to be reasonably good (when in my 20s and having 3 or 4 lessons a week with an inspirational trainer) but has come back to riding after 20 year lay off & only gets to ride once a week, I am all too aware of my limitations. However, my current trainer has tactfully & gently taken me from being hopeless to (on a good day) being able to work with my mare.. No we're not improving as fast as we might if I could put in more ours but we are improving & I know where we want to get to.
 
i think there is some currency in KatB's comments about some trainers just wanting the easy money and not really being bothered about seeing an improvement...however, i do think that if i went to a trainer who immediately ripped me apart i doubt that i'd go back. its not that i think i'm great (i really don't- am fully aware that i need a lot of work :o)...but its totally pointless telling me 50 things that are wrong. most people can only work on one or two things at once- to attempt more is pointless and, personally, i get frustrated if i'm asked to think of too many things at once...this then makes me ride terribly. i actually think that positive comments help more than you might think...but then i am a teacher so i do tend to overthink these things. as LEC (i think it was LEC?) said its the 'homework' side of things that a lot of people don't bother with- they have their lessons and then let it slide in between. perhaps this is the trainer's fault for not making it clear what thing the rider should be prioritising or maybe the rider's for not listening/ being bothered.....
 
I agree diggerbez... okay, i need 'positive, encouraging and above all exacting' then. I've endured the legendary 'whole hour in walk' lessons and, in retrospect, it was totally worth it. Not sure most trainers would risk it though?
 
I think there is a fine balance of letting things that are less important lie for another day, and working on the things that matter. I have had lessons with some very exacting trainers, but could never see progress with them as I am a one horse rider with limited time, so being "that" exacting and only making progress whilst under tuition would never work. However, trainers I have had success with are incredibly straight, but also very clear on progression with lots of very clear steps to keep on improving me and the horse, which worked wonders...
 
SusieT said:
You catch more flies with honey.. as a trainer if you tell ther ider they are crap their confidence is dented, they leave you, go elsewhere or don't have lessons at all. if you play to their positive sides, compliment them and try to train them positively-I think a lot of lay people are unable to comprehend this adn think everythig should be sorted out right now, when that's not the case.
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This.



It would seem that everyone passing comment is a good to exceptional student . . .don't forget that someone taught you that! You may not even remember it - odds are it was your parents or a very early teacher - but somewhere along the way you learned how to learn. Not everyone is so lucky. And the process has to start somewhere - if teachers turned away everyone who didn't approach the process in the "right" way then that opportunity would be lost. Not to mention that there is a horse involved! So you might very well observe at the beginning of the process and feel very free to judge but a few years down the line the rider would be unrecognisable. As was mentioned, if the rider doesn't come back then there is NO chance. It might surprises you who turns the boat around and develops into a good student and a nice rider - it's not always the people you would expect, but as a teacher part of your job is to get the largest number of people to stick around long enough to see a new path. Btw, I think the "housewives" crack is borderline offensive. Takes all kinds, trust me.

Also, it's all very well to say give 'em the boot but then they have NO supervision or input - is that really preferable? You could argue that's taking people's money for nothing but at least they're not off trying wacky stuff with no lifeguard on duty.

I also think there is a sliding scale here. YOU may think you're getting the unvarnished truth from your instructor but much more likely you're getting the version they think you can handle. I did a number of clinics years ago with a well known German trainer at a very posh yard (barn, actually, since it was in Canada ;) ). The bulk of the day was given over to the yard's clients, all well off female dressage riders, although most showed little if at all. (So we know the type. ;) ). Although the clinican was very charming and chatty, he worked them pretty hard and they all came out of their lessons red faced but feeling they'd really learned and accomplished. I rode a horse at the end of the day that was being targeted to stallion approvals and literally before I put my foot in the stirrup, this guy was yelling. He yelled pretty much non-stop, except when he turfed me off the horse and tried manfully to undo some of the damage I'd done.

When I got off the ladies who had been watching looked genuinely horrified! A few actually came to see if I was okay. :) They were having a stroke because he talked to ME like that. So yes, he patted their asses. I suspect he did not take them seriously at all, although they all got a lot out of his teaching, relatively speaking. I got a LOT more out of his teaching but, I hate to say, most amateurs would not have stood for it! Right or wrong? Or just knowing your market?

I have also spent WEEKS in walk with a trainer who had given up teaching completely (I begged) because she could not stand it anymore. It was absolutely brilliant and I would go back to her in a heartbeat if it was possible. I learned so much. But her standards were so exacting she a) could not make a living and b) could not cope. But she was right. :). The good part for her about stopping teaching is the little bits she did do, with people like me, she could do EXACTLY the way she wanted.


Are there bad teachers who don't do right by their clients? Of course. Just like there are clients who, I hate to say, seem intent on hardly improving at all.

Now, someone with competitive ambitions is a different deal entirely. But in that case, it will come out in the wash sooner rather than later. If you hire someone to teach you to win at a particular level it's going to become pretty obvious pretty quickly if it's not happening! If the client then stays in that situation then that's his/her lookout. We are, after all, talking about adults here.

As far as trainers who just say it's great all the time, clearly they have a place because no one on this thread has gone back to someone like that and yet they continue to survive as coaches. Maybe they genuinely didn't know what to say that day? Maybe you caught them on a bad one? Maybe their style suits other people? There is a well known and popular coach near me who, from what I can see, only either tells people they're wonderful or crap. The crap ones leave demoralised, the wonderful ones do genuinely seem to improve under his teaching, even if it's just that they believe more in themselves. When his name comes up (or here sometimes) you get such different options it's hard to imagine they're talking about the same person.

My point is, basically, it's easy to judge, it's often a bit more complicated to do. ;)
 
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I had a lesson recently, first one in many years. In an hour I got two "keep your shoulders back" and one "diagonal". Shoulders back fine, diagonal was a one off, so I haven't been back, I must need more CC than that!
 
Kat said:
I'm not really competing properly but if I went to a trainer and they told me that I was wonderful then I wouldn't go back again. I want a trainer to pick up my faults and improve me, that is what I pay them for. If they don't pick up on my faults then they either believe that I don't have any (in which case their skills are seriously lacking) or they believe I have faults but don't tell me in which case they aren't doing the job that they are being paid to do.

I can understand a trainer not wanting to rip a rider to shreds all in one go and maybe, for example, focussing on the hands and letting the legs go to an extent but to not pick up on faults at all is unacceptable.
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I think you can do both - I had one that would make me feel wonderful and inspired at the same time as working almost solely on my position, feel and technique. I always came away sitting taller and more confident and totally wanting to work hard so I could go back next time and show improvement :) Constantly picking on riding faults in a negative way actually makes a lot of people worse because a lot about riding well is feeling relaxed, confident and joyful which makes you sit better and taller and this affects the horse incredibly as we all know.

Unfortunately I had to sell my lorry and could'nt get to him anymore as he only had time to teach from home. I've had other very good instructors since but he was particularly good at being inspiring and that is lacking in a lot of trainers.
 
As an instructor (bhs senior coach and ukcc level three) you do have to assess each rider as an individual and teach them to their own learning style and how they like to be taught, therefore if you were to watch a lesson of move you might think I am too hard/soft with that person, it doesn't mean I would teach you in the same way.
The biggest skill of a trainers is to assess how each rider likes to be taught.
There is, also an element of the rider actually wanting to take on instruction, praise and criticism. Most people I teach accept all as long as its said and done in the ti ght way.
 
Hmm, apologies if the title is bordering offensive, its a term I've heard used regularly, with no offence caused so didn't occur to me (perhaps stupidly) it would cause offence.

I don't think anyone is saying trainers should call anyone crap, as that is just counter productive and unnecessary.

Ultimately, the people who pay money to be trained are wanting to achieve something...and I believe its the trainers job to assist with this. Spending X amount of lssons workin on getting the horse to go in such a way when actually all that was needed to happen was the rider needed to make small adjustments to allow the horse to do it to me is trainer error, and the sort of thing is surely what people are paying to have eyes on the floor?!
 
Could part of the problem that their are now so many self proclaimed trainers with no qualifications experiance etc to back it up?
Eg near me their are some "international showjumpers" which translates to jumping a british novice 10 years ago and have nvq 2!!! They teach for £30 an hour and tell their clients how wonderful they are, but they have to as they have no knowledge to back themselves up and its the only way to get repeat custom!
Q
 
TarrSteps said:
I also think there is a sliding scale here. YOU may think you're getting the unvarnished truth from your instructor but much more likely you're getting the version they think you can handle.
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I think the point we're making is not that we think we're getting the unvarnished truth, and "look, aren't we great that we can handle it", instead we're making the point that we're not (in many cases) even getting an element of truth, and if that's because the teacher thinks we can't handle being told that (e.g. our right shoulder is in front of our left), then I believe that is a failing in the teacher. Some corrections seriously are that basic :confused:

I actually got more help with my riding position from my saddler than I did my old flat instructor :o

Am glad I have two great instructors now, who strike the balance right.
 
I agree with a lot of what has been said and I personally think there are lot of people teaching who do not understand enough to work on the rider's position or to see the root cause of the positional fault so do the "shoulders back" without sussing out why the shoulders are not back. It probably starts elsewhere in the position.

Many moons ago I passed by BHSAI, more for my own personal satisfaction/pleasure than because I wanted to teach. I did some pony club and some lessons for friends but only really show jumping since that was what I knew about at the time and I personally knew my flat work instruction was not good enough to charge for!
 
But I don't understand why this isn't, at base, a business decision? If you're not getting what you want, don't go back. Would you go back to a dentist who didn't fix your teeth or a car salesman who sold you a hunk of junk? If you feel the people around you are getting ripped off, speak up. But if they stay put you have to assume they are adults and can choose to spend their money as they see fit. As pointed out, you might actually have a very different experience with the same instructor!

It is also true people take lessons for different reasons. You may not approve but I would argue better they're taking lessons! And I see your point that instructors should then refuse to teach people who genuinely don't want to improve (I've scratched my head many a time over people who apparently go to people like Mark Todd and Klaus Balkenhol to be told how wonderful they are!) but turning people away isn't good business or even fair.

You also might be surprised who DOES improve over time. The most unlikely people catch fire sometimes but they have to stick around long enough.

Of course there are people who take money for nothing, as in all things. Just don't give them yours. ;)

As to accreditation being the answer, I can't say that's been my personal experience but again, vote with your feet and encourage other people to do likewise. :)
 
There are lots of valid points throughout the thread.
In my experience I am quite fussy about who I learn from. I do have a slightly fragile ego, but at the same time, I know from my past that I am far more capable than I 'need' to be at the moment.
When I do have lessons, I go to people who are renowned for being ruthless in a constructive way, I mean how can an 83yr old lady sitting on your mounting block in the corner of the school make you cry by giving you a compliment? Because you bloody earned it, that's how!

Really inspirational people I have learned from include: Lucinda Green, Pammy Hutton, Peter Murphy, Hazel Booth, Dorothy Johnson FBHS (In my opinion the best teacher ever!), and more recently Louise Morley (or showjumpingmummy).

I think part of the problem is people don't actually set an objective for themselves, if they have nothing to aim for how will they get anywhere? And I don't mean competition goals I mean personal ones.

My family (on my Dad's side (high level SJ) think I am bonkers going for lessons when I rarely compete any more, but I do enjoy learning.
 
TarrSteps said:
As to accreditation being the answer, I can't say that's been my personal experience but again, vote with your feet and encourage other people to do likewise. :)
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I have also found several people who are accredited to various bodies that don't suit me, but they seem to get good results with other folks, is that a reflection on their teaching or my learning?
 
Baggybreeches said:
I have also found several people who are accredited to various bodies that don't suit me, but they seem to get good results with other folks, is that a reflection on their teaching or my learning?
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You can argue it is their teaching, as they should be able to tune in to however you learn best, but of course in all honesty you will " click" better with some trainers than others, we are all just human beings after all... Just like, however good and adaptable a rider you are, you will find some horses suit your natural style better than others...

Some good points made all round :) I think the summary for me is that:

1) People pay money to a coach to progress in some way, and to to take money from them without attempting to help them achieve this is patronising and a little dishonest, even if they are enjoying the sessions;

2) coaches and pupils both have a responsibility to discuss what their goals are, so that everyone knows what they are trying to achieve in the sessions and whether it is working;

3) A good coach will adapt their style to suit the pupil, in all sorts of ways, so the lesson you watch wouldn't necessarily be the lesson you would get - point well made, TS and charlie76;

4) People need both encouragement and criticism in order to progress - getting the balance right for the individual concerned and getting the timing right with whichever is required is, in my view, one of the greatest skills in coaching and often what sets a great, inspirational coach apart from the good ones;

5) This is more a musing of my own than something referred to previously: Like it or not, you can't fix everything at once, and a good coach knows this, perhaps we don't always explain it well enough to pupils. A hypothetical pupil may have ten fairly major flaws in their riding; I will probably pick three to focus on initially, hoping that they may help to fix some of the other seven and, if not, moving onto the rest once the first three are fixed. Another coach might see the same pupil and focus on a different set of issues in the first instance, but still with the same goals as me - it would be nice to think we would always prioritise in the same way but, in practice, it doesn't always happen, and there is more than one road to Rome :rolleyes:
 
There is a well known dressage instructor near me, who teaches some of the "house wives" at my yard. She is enthuastic, her lessons are great fun. She has them doing half-pass, pirouettes, etc and they absolutely love her lessons!

The horses are not on the bit, working forwards or straight but this doesn't see to matter! the instructor is full of praise and makes the rider feel good. This is fine for the rider who wants nothing more than to enjoy her lessons (although I question whether it is good for the horse to be made to do these movements when not strong enough) but is no good when they go out to do a dressage test and don't get the marks they have been told they should get as the basics just aren't there.

She's a great business woman and makes her clients feel good but I'm not sure she's really benefitting anyone long term, other than her own pocket
 
KatB said:
Ultimately, the people who pay money to be trained are wanting to achieve something...
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Yes they are - and sometimes all they want to achieve is that their ego is massaged and they are told how wonderful they are, even when they're not. Does that matter (obvious safety implications aside :rolleyes:)? :confused:

It's not how I want to spend my money (and judging by the comments on here, nor is it how most of you want to spend your money) but I'm a big girl and can make my own choices. I'll certainly vote with my feet if I'm not happy.

When those instructors run out of those types of people then they'll go out of business. It seems though, there are plenty making a decent enough living to carry on :p

Other than that - I agree with Tabledancer...... (baa...!:o)
 
Obviously safety issues aside, I really don't understand what the obsession with what other people get up to on their horses is. If they're both happy trundling along who gives two hoots? I find this is one of the biggest issues I face in my riding - the feeling that I am being judged when I ride, which only serves to make me ride like tosh.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone is dangerous have the balls to tell them and if they don't listen there isn't much else you can do, otherwise get on with your own crusade to achieve perfection.
No, I don't want to be told I'm amazing, but equally I don't want to be totally demoralised; I can do that well enough on my own.
I teach a huge variety of people, I have people who ride for the joy of sitting on a horse - if I was to point out every flaw they would be crushed. I have people who are terrified, but desperately want to ride, I have to encourage every step they take, and then I have confident teenagers who can take instruction and need criticism in order to realise they are not invincible. Horses for courses.
 
I think m_m and kirstyhen have both got to the crux of the matter... it's whether it is a safety issue or not. I don't give two hoots how pretty someone's circles are, and how big (or not) their ego is, and how unfounded (or not) their confidence is, as long as they and their horse are (ideally) having a nice time. If they compete then a judge will tell them how good they are, and if they don't compete, fine too. If they've wasted £££s with someone they thought was great and later find out wasn't so good... oh well, it's only money, their money. ;) ;) nobody else's business.
It's when you put fixed fences into the mix that things get more complicated and dangerous. Of course confidence is paramount BUT it has to be founded on something solid too. And telling a good trainer from an average or not so good trainer is very very difficult when it's a subjective decision... and unfortunately there are trainers out there who will sign off on someone who has been refused by other (v experienced) trainers... (I heard this from a B.E. trainer a few years ago, I wasn't involved at all, but the trainer was worried... rightly so. Things didn't go according to plan, put it that way.)
 
Oh I completely agree, I have been in the position of hating riding because I was so concerned about what other people thought...and therefore if people are happy with their trainer, and are achieving what they want yo, that's great.

I'm not taking about people who just want to ride, I'm not talking about people who never have any aspirations other than to feel great, I'm talking about the people who go to someone with clear goals and no idea how to go about it, and then get their "journey" interrupted or made difficult by trainers who just have their own agenda...

TD has, pretty much summed it up for me anyway. This is why my post was a musing ;)
 
Hmm, interesting and I dont think I have ever heard of 'housewife trainers' before so you learn something new every day, dont you. I used to have lessons, but now obviously I spend a lot of time watching my daughter have them. What seems apparent is that there are a lot of trainers out there who cannot communicate with their clients. Its apparent they know their stuff, but they cannot comunicate it with the rider adequately, and I have seen the 'lovely, lovely, lovely ....' comments first hand at a couple of lessons daughter had and her mare was being a right mare, on the forehand and very lazy. We didnt go back.

The best trainers we have both found are blunt eough to tell it as it is and have the courage of their convications. Neither of us are ever offended, in fact Mini TX positively loves someone being blunt with her, helps her focus, as do I. I also have no time for trainers who dont go to a trainer themselves, and give an air of 'know it all. Mini TX's current dressage trainer is BD and BE accredited and also trains regularly with Isobel Wessels, and attends regular training clinics. She is kind and sympathetic, but she will also take no nonsense and there is no ego rubbing. Would recommend her to anyone and if I wanted to go back to doing dressage I would use her myself. I think if you do not continually look to improve yourself, you cannot do the same to your clients. Professionaly I have been doing what I do 20 plus years and have lots of letters after my names to prove it, but I still go on training on the technical side of things. Conversely, I also use a business coach, and he has a business coach himself to keep him on top of things. Learning is a continual thing. Nothing stands still.

I have seen friends who like the ego rubbing, but quite honestly nobody gets anywhere and with people like that you just vote with your feet and dont use them. My daughter used to be trained by a 'name' who had gone around Badminton more times than I have had hot dinners. This person could not train for toffee and although their riding skills were evident, they could not train anyone to emulate to them - a real case of 'Those that can do, those that cant teach'.
 
One of the instructors I rode with was highly critical - but sometimes became quite nasty with the criticism and could get personal etc, or say my horse was crap (he wasn't/isn't, they just didn't get along). I stuck with them for a while, and did improve, but found my confidence ebbing away. After one particularly bad lesson I got off and was seriously considering selling my horse and quitting riding.

Current instructors are both critical, but constructive. I want to improve, so I need somebody to help me do that. I like people to push me and point out my faults, because I love to see an improvement. But it can be done in a nice, constructive manner :)
 
TheoryX1, that's a good point we haven't really touched on yet, who trains the trainers? One of the biggest gems I have ever been taught (to 'stop' the movement of the pelvis going from canter to walk and walk to halt) came from Chris Bartle to my then-trainer who passed it straight on to me. It has been invaluable, and I teach it very early on to anyone I come into contact with. Even just for walk to halt it is a real lightbulb moment for horses and riders... esp for giving riders the idea that you can use your whole body to influence the horse, it isn't just 'pull reins to stop, push with legs to go' which unfortunately is still how a lot of teaching seems to be...
 
Don't want to hijack, but Kerilli - feel like passing that on? :p my canter-walk almost always has a step of trot and it drives me mad!
 
kirstyhen said:
Obviously safety issues aside, I really don't understand what the obsession with what other people get up to on their horses is. If they're both happy trundling along who gives two hoots? I find this is one of the biggest issues I face in my riding - the feeling that I am being judged when I ride, which only serves to make me ride like tosh.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone is dangerous have the balls to tell them and if they don't listen there isn't much else you can do, otherwise get on with your own crusade to achieve perfection.
No, I don't want to be told I'm amazing, but equally I don't want to be totally demoralised; I can do that well enough on my own.
I teach a huge variety of people, I have people who ride for the joy of sitting on a horse - if I was to point out every flaw they would be crushed. I have people who are terrified, but desperately want to ride, I have to encourage every step they take, and then I have confident teenagers who can take instruction and need criticism in order to realise they are not invincible. Horses for courses.
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*looks for 'like' button*
 
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