Aaaarrrgghhhh - Pedigree dogs programme....

[MotherOfChickens]

I've had rescue dogs all my life and done my utmost for them-they've mostly been great dogs. however, 10 years of living and coping with a completely neurotic collie and the sudden presence of kids in my life led to to take on a pedigree pup. havent regretted it for a minute-he's well socialised, well trained and fabulous to have around and I get really pi55ed at people suggesting I should feel guilty in some way for not having a rescue. I did all my home work and chose a breed not given to conformation/health problems.

wrt dog breeders, they've been at this for decades-take away a dogs (or horses!) job and you get an animal at the mercy of people's ideas of what they want them to look like with no regard to soundness etc, its gross.

 

[M_G]

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Kennel club response to programme:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1993/23/5/3

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How can the even try to say they would never put looks above health did you see the German Shepherd???
FFS the poor animal could hardly walk, if the KC judges did not place such bizarre looking and unsound dogs over healthy sound animals then surely the breeders who do breed to win would start breeding for health

 

[Hovis_and_SidsMum]

I don't want to add too much on my views on the program because I might fill several pages suffice to say it was extremely distressing.
Interestingly last friday I took our pedigree GS to the vets for her jabs. There I was sat with a woman with her GS who was the same age as mine. Hers was obviously crippled with its back end and looked really odd - she however turned to me and said that Amazon was quite cute for a mongrel!!
Amazon is a real working dog type GS, fit as a fiddle but looks nothing like a show GS. When I told her my dog was actually a pedigree she smiled and said I was obviously "done".
Cue the vet (bless him) actually piping up as he came to get Am and I that she was in far better health than hers and he'd rather see them like mine any day.
My point being that this was a lay person off the street who now believes a GS should look like those horrific examples on the TV and if its doesn't they wouldn't buy it.
The whole thing makes me feel ill.

 

[M_G]

I was so horrified to see the "show" GS...If ever I buy a dog it will be a working dog from a breeder who has the animals best interest at heart

 

[jacks_mum]

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How can the even try to say they would never put looks above health did you see the German Shepherd???
FFS the poor animal could hardly walk, if the KC judges did not place such bizarre looking and unsound dogs over healthy sound animals then surely the breeders who do breed to win would start breeding for health

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Exactly My point earlier but more concisely put.

 

[M_G]

I went back and read all the posts & great minds think alike eh

 

[ladyt25]

Right I have not been able to read ALL these posts (there are soo many and i guess that's good the programme has made people realise what goes on). I was pretty much appalled by the attitude of the KC and the judges (especially that rude lady who turned up to court, made her snide comment but then didn't have the balls to justify herself!)

I just find it disgraceful that these breeders of pedigree dogs care more about what the dog looks like rather than the dogs health or well being. Why do not any of them grow a pair and stand up to the KC 'rules and regulations'??? Honestly, what sort of people are they. If more thought "actually, that doesn't look good, that animal looks in severe discomfort/pain" then that animal would NOT then be used to breed from. That pug was revolting - i thought that at the time when it won.

And as for that horrible fat, smug KC rep bloke (could have happily punched him!), he was just pathetic and came up with no good arguments and half the time didn't even answer teh reporetr's question.

Honestly I could go on with this but will be FAR too long (prob is already) but surely common sense and animals welfare issues should be the most important aspects. WHY breed from a dog (KCS) you know has a severe disease that is so debilitating and results in such suffering? That is just totally irresponsible. Oh and I think these people need to get some basic understanding of genetics - breeding mother/son etc?? WTF!!! Even wolves and many other animals in the wild do not do that - they have an alpha male and female!

 

[xspiralx]

Could someone please post some pictures of the difference between "working" type dogs and show bred dogs? I know they are different but I don't have much experience, and I think it would be interesting to see.

 

[abb123]

We have a pedigree golden retriever. We went to a KC registered breeder after doing our research as we were told from lots of different sources that these would be reputable breeders and we would get a healthy dog. He has had a lot of skin tumours and had to undergo several particularly aggressive surgeries to remove them. I wouldn't swap him for the world but I wish that we had got a working version of the breed as it could have saved us so much distress for both him and us. We thought we were doing the right thing.....

 

[prose]

They're not a working breed any longer, but Boston Terriers haven't, for the most part, changed that much since the early twentieth century (the breed was established in 1891 and split away from the earlier pit bull-type dogs).

Boston from the 1920s

My Stella

I do see some worrying trends in my breed, with dogs getting way too small, too pug-like in the nose. On the plus side, one of the reasons they do so poorly in the show ring is because the breed is fairly new and tends to throw mismark colours and a huge variety of sizes, structures and head shape.

This is Stella, 17lbs. That is Catfish, 29lbs.

I hope to god we stay where we are in terms of appearance etc. Stella is my running companion, the unofficial world champion at fetch, and a sane, happy dog. She lost her eye in a tragic accident three months ago--which had nothing to do with her short nose, as she whacked her head behind her ear and damaged the optic nerve--but she has been genetically healthy. The vet always comments on her excellent heart-rate and perfect knees, hips and back. I will be so upset if we start seeing BTs really struggling like pugs in the heat, or as tiny, wispy dogs, reduced to nothing like the modern day Yorkshire Terrier.

She's fast as a bunny

And she can fly

 

[prose]

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Acolyte, i can see where in certain cases the whole "breed standard" is wrong.
i can go and buy a pug for £800 and that dog is likely to have respitory problems amongst other things. that to me is not carefully selected breeding.
if someone could show me a pug that did was not going to show up a whole host of problems later on down the line i might think about it but until then.....
now i know there are some very good breeders out there, and its only a few that bring everyone else down, but in certain breeds i can sort of see the argument here

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They do exist. I don't know where these dogs hail from, but there are literally thousands of pugs in NYC, and they run the gamut from being fat, waddling and hardly able to breathe, and longer-legged, very slim and able to outrun just about any other dog at the park. I'll see if I can try to get a picture of two black pugs at my dog park that are leggy and lean.

 

[claire1976]

Wow, I've not read all the posts but I am not surprised this programme evoked such a response.
It was a thought provoking programme and echo's my concerns that for years now (many) breeders have become irresponsible and greedy by continuing to produce dogs for cosmetic reasons and not for the good of the breed. The breed standards set by breed clubs, and approved by the KC, have been monumentily altered in the last 100 years. I would urge anyone who doesn't believe this to go to their library and reasearch historical pictures of dogs, especially working ones. They are a world away from the dogs we see today.
Most dogs were bred with a purpose in mind yet if you put any of these modern day champs to work in that field of purpose they would be dead on their knee's.
The GSD's shown were horrendous and it's no wonder that the british police try to keep breeding in house as there is no way these poor dogs could scale walls etc with back legs like those.
As for ridgebacks, well this is truly shocking, the likelihood is that the ridge is formed due to a defect but yet this is encouraged. Unbelievable.
The cavaliers were truly hearbreaking to see and the woman with the champion with a severe neurological problem showed no remorse when admitting her stud dog has sired many litters. Truly irresponsible.
The KC need to stop being ruled by their members beliefs. They are a governing body and should govern for the good of the breed and not to please some upper class twits who are spoiling dogs long term. Genetics play a massive part in the future of some of our best loved breeds and the KC need to step in fast and re-think the breed 'standards' for many, many breeds.

 

[joeanne]

Prose i think that might be as stateside they have been bred to be healthy, in the uk i have certainly never seen a healthy pug, and i certainly couldnt afford to buy, import and quarentine one from the states! LOL

 

[Onyxia]

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I think the pictures of the various breeds from years ago look so much better. Add to that the fact that they were healthier then i really dont understand why on earth these stupid, ignorant people would carry on breeding them like that?

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Sure about that?
Got any evidence?
IMO,we will never know for sure if all breeds had better health then or now because we couldnt test them 100 years ago the way we can now.
I have known plenty of perfectly healthy purebred dogs as well as shcking walking vets bills of crosses- a lot is down to luck.

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Who wants a dog that can barely breathe or walk? Surely if you have to be putting your dog on an ice pack so it doesnt die thats a bloody great clue that something's not right.

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You would think so

I dont agree that ALL breeds are in a bad way as the show says-but some are beyound doubt allready in a lot of trouble.
Surely anyone can see that breeding a flat face in pugs is not for the good of the animal?Or that the ld bulldog was far better looking and looks able to do the job it was bred for which the version we see today couldnt possably.

 

[Adina]

Well I didn't watch the programme but have heard about it. I'll add my views as a GSD breeder - over 20 yrs ago. When I first went to Africa I took dog and bitch with me and I had a lot of pleasure breeding and showing my dogs. That bitch was X-rayed but at that time hip-scoring was not available. A second bitch I was able to have hipscored with a score of 0 !! I bred for soundness in mind and body. It is my view that there has to be a pet market for those that dont make it in the show ring - so they have to have excellent temperaments and free from health issues.
We had visiting judges from UK or Germany. I well remember one UK judge telling how she argued with her co-judge over the selection for Best of Breed. Her co-judge wanted to award to the bigger dog as it made him more dramatic ! But he was over-sized - so he wanted to but an incorrect dog over a correct one. Judges should award to the standard not something dramatic.
I haven't bred dogs in the UK- I'm fussy about homes. I sold most of mine when I was abroad by word of mouth. I do have a rescue GSD but she has a gluten allergy, narrow ear canals so they get gummed up and infected, a tail so flat over her anus that repeated infections meant her anal glands had to be removed. Her temperament is lovely but she had been incorrectly trained as a guard dog - so was very confused.
On another issue- look at Hyenas, they can run for miles clamber over obstacles. They are not unsound but have a peculiar shape and movement. Say no more.

 

[MooMoo]

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Sure about that?
Got any evidence?

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there's no need to be like that about it, its just what i think

the pugs from 60 years ago or whatever didnt have flat faces, he ones today that do can barely breathe so yes i would say that they were healthier.

 

[Baggybreeches]

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So why do dog advertised in the local paper cost £150 for a mutt, and a Pug costs £800?

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In my experience what dogs are advertised at and what they sell for are 2 completely different things......

As an example, I bred my own litter of pups, from my male dog who I had since he was a pup and had been asked on many occasions to use him as a stud (he is German Shorthair Pointer X Lab) I turned down all offers. By chance I rescued a Choc Lab bitch from an unsuitable home and 2 years later we let them mate. She had 9 puppies, we lost one overnight on the first night (this was her first litter) I sold 6 of the pups at £150 each, I kept 1 and gave one to my nephew. Keeping 8 puppies for 8 weeks including good quality food & wormers, not to mention the hours put in, I dont think I made a profit of more than £100, so £100 for 8 weeks work is hardly raking it in is it?
Just incase anybody wishes me eternal damnation, the bitch will not be bred from again as we have subsequently found out that her hips are poor (due to being severely overweight in adolescence) and poor old Chip has had his knackers off!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Hmm, was loath to comment on this as I didn't see the show.

But QR....My two bobs' worth as regards GSDs.....

-The dogs that reach the top in Germany HAVE to have working qualifications (in a number of different disciplines) so I don't really see the 'showy German types can't work' points that have been made.
Horses for courses, as they say.

-A dog moving in a small triangle on a shiny carpet that is used to running at an extended trot for long periods around an athletics track or similar is going to look a bit odd.

- I don't respect Crufts as a barometer of quality, I thought it was a bit belittling of the Sieger to have him there at all, personally.
Also, the German showing and breeding system and their whole outlook is very different to what we have in the UK.

-Most of my favourite dogs have been from the 70s and 80s and to my mind, could easily win today.

We have left the show scene and have not bred a litter since the late 80s, so I am not being biased.

 

[MurphysMinder]

According to a post on a GSD forum, the first 2 GSDs shown on that programme were actually veterans. So whilst they weren't very good specimens (imo), some unsoundness could perhaps be excused, and more to the point, slightly devious of the programme makers not to mention that fact. Zamp, the Crufts winner did appear to be moving very cow hocked. As I posted earlier on this thread I have never seen him in the flesh but cannot believe that the German Sieger is not a fundamentally sound, good moving dog. As HH says the dogs in Germany have to work before winning top awards, and also have to have their hips x rayed and of a certain standard.
I'm not in any way trying to justify unsound dogs winning, when I was judging I always asked to see the dogs go on a loose lead so I could see if they were sound front and back. Sadly many were not, and this was over 20 years ago so doesn't look like much has changed.

 

[Onyxia]

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Sure about that?
Got any evidence?

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there's no need to be like that about it, its just what i think

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Just a question,not intented to come across nasty so sorry if it did.
Point is,we KNOW nearly every tiny fault with dogs today because we can test them to a very high standared.
100 years ago we could not so although we may assume they were better its not known for sure although, its a damn good guess from looking that some breeds have gone very downhill,pugs/peks being the first to spring to mind.
The overly flat faces are disgusting to look at and are beyound doubbt responsable for lots of problems.

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the pugs from 60 years ago or whatever didnt have flat faces, he ones today that do can barely breathe so yes i would say that they were healthier.

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Cant agree more,but the show was trying to say EVERY breed si worse for ear now and were better then

Some are MUCH worse (personaly the pug from yesteryear is something I wouldnt be ashamed to be seen out with,the modern pug I wouldnt touch for any reason!) but some are no worse and some are better.

Inherited problems dont pop up over night so muct have been there in the old breeding stock but unnown because of lack of ability to test them.
Solution?
Simple to say,hard to put into practise- reward healthy dogs and their breeders with the ribbons and dismiss anything that isnt healthy no matter how "good" it might look.
Surely it wouldnt be too tricky to ask breeders/handlers to take a vet cert saying the dog is in good health to shows? We all get our animals checked over when they go for their jabs anyway...
But IMO the biggest thing that needs to change is the law(or rather lack of) re dog breeding.
It wouldnt stop backyard breeders after a fast buck,but changing the law to force anyone thinking of breedign to have some health tests done on the dogs and then to only breed from ones with vets stamp of aprovel would put off breeders with a reputation to maintain from breeding when they know their is a problem.

 

[MooMoo]

its ok d/w about it. i didnt really get that vibe from the show as it showed some really extreme examples although i suppose it could be interpreted that way. i agree the law needs to change as it seems the kennel club and basically everyone involved isnt taking responisibilty/actions to change.

i also think its a shame that the genuine breeders who steer away from inbreeding and breeding disease into dogs are basically tarred with the same brush. those are the ones that should be leading the example to others. unfortunately these "others" just think they know better/just dont care.

 

[The Original Kao]

well i've just been an watched it. i cried watching that poor boxer

if it's on that much meds and still fitting and being that distressed i'd have it PTS rather than allowing him to suffer anymore.
i also had no idea about the ridgebacks. i'm gobsmacked.
a friend of mine when i was a kid had 1 and he was gorgeous and such a lovely natured dog, never researched into the breed tho, so my eyes have now been opened.
if i do decide to get 1 in the future i'll be asking for a rhodesian non ridgebacked dog.
i have 1 pedigree dog, a great dane, i didn't pick her, my old boss has had us looking after her since february. she's still here.
wonderful temperament, very pretty and thankfully very healthy. huge and drooling tho

not sure if i'd go out and buy 1 as it seems buying pedigree dogs is a bit of a lottery anyway unless you really know your breed and know of reputable breeders 1st or 2nd hand.
our family dog is a black lab, not registered and she's out of a chocolate lab, her sire is a working black lab. tho she has some white on her (white on her tummy and a few white hairs on her leg-like 4 of them) so maybe her dad was actually a springador? who knows? but she's a fab temperament and no real health issues apart from smelly itchy ears. she cost us £140 and she's the best dog anyone could've asked for

not biased at all