Adelinde Cornelissen - A Rant!!

[BeesKnees]

if you were to draw lines on the hind and front legs of the horses in these photos it is in fact Parcival who has the parallel lines and Fuego who shows the 'unnatural' (not my claim but part of Dr H's claims) front leg action and loss of hind leg engagement.
.

But you have to look at where the angles are coming from. If you look carefully you can see that Fuego is showing typical Iberian freedom in the shoulder area. Though high, his front leg is gently bent at the knee showing all the lift is from the shoulder. The lower leg stays straight and neutral.

There is certainly no loss of hind leg engagement And his back has stayed lifted and engaged. He doesn't have the open frame of Parcival, but that is a conformational difference as the Iberians are much more short coupled.

Parcival in comparison is very strained through the shoulder, no doubt as a consequence of being over bent, making it hard to lift the shoulder. He is getting lift by flicking his leg out, especially from the fetlock. He looks less engaged and much more tense across the back and possibly a little hollow just behind the saddle.

So to me, it's about much more than a couple of leg angles! It's about the whole picture.

 

[Rowreach]

So to me, it's about much more than a couple of leg angles! It's about the whole picture.

BeesKnees you are so right. On a much simpler level, just compare the eyes of the horses in these two photos - they say it all.

 

[JFTDWS]

Well said, bees knees. But, of course, I am blinkered by my Iberian-phile nature. Much like the judges seem to be by their warmblood loving ways

 

[Goldenstar]

It is about the whole picture as you watch it for the judges it's different who are marking movements.
To my eye Fuego shows interruptions in rhytmn and shortness in the neck in the tests and of the Spanish type horses Rubi made a much nicer picture although he has less power and is less off the ground .
It's more interesting to compare Pariszal with Alf and try to work out why LB's test was marked lower than AC 's and that's what I am struggling to understand harmony was sadly lacking in silver medal test however the horse has a very good sense of rhytmn amazing in the flesh considering you can see the visible tension throughout the test..
Although LBs hands are working too visibly at it times the impression was of a happy horse working with his rider.

 

[BeesKnees]

Well said, bees knees. But, of course, I am blinkered by my Iberian-phile nature.

Yep I'm guilty of that too, but trying to be objective

It's more interesting to compare Pariszal with Alf and try to work out why LB's test was marked lower than AC 's and that's what I am struggling to understand.

Agreed. Would be great to see side by side photos / video of those two for comparison.

 

[skewbaldpony]

https://data.fei.org/Result/ResultL...F725D3C86B79D7DB2FFBB6C376748916CE9311174822F

well ....

 

[Goldenstar]

I would love understand more about this very high level judging I could see exactly why they have every horse in every place except the bronze and silver.
It's fasinating and those judges must be knackered in the evening the concerntation must be awesome .

 

[Bert&Maud]

https://data.fei.org/Result/ResultL...F725D3C86B79D7DB2FFBB6C376748916CE9311174822F

well ....

Can't remember how to post a link! However, skewbaldpony has linked to the Grand Prix.
If you look at the results of the freestyle, the only judge to place Adelinde above Charlotte was ... you guessed it ... the Dutch judge for Technical merit! The artistic marks for both are mostly almost equal, but Charlotte achieved much higher marks for technical from all other judges. So how can home advantage have anything to do with that??

 

[zefragile]

It is about the whole picture as you watch it for the judges it's different who are marking movements.
To my eye Fuego shows interruptions in rhytmn and shortness in the neck in the tests and of the Spanish type horses Rubi made a much nicer picture although he has less power and is less off the ground .

This. On other forums people noticed the spurs jabbing, tight neck and lack of sparkle in Fuego (compared to WEG), but on here the judges are on crack apparently. I didn't see Fuego's test, I'm sure it was great, just saying what I've read elsewhere.

 

[Goldenstar]

This. On other forums people noticed the spurs jabbing, tight neck and lack of sparkle in Fuego (compared to WEG), but on here the judges are on crack apparently. I didn't see Fuego's test, I'm sure it was great, just saying what I've read elsewhere.

I watched with interest as I have never seen him in the flesh before and he is always held up as the example of the unfairly marked Spanish type horse.
I just did not see a horse getting harshly marked the neck is held short at times and he's BTV which spoils his piaffe he shows a lack of rhytmn and is being ridden forward very strongly at times I thought the mark was fair in comparison to the others.
I don't think the judges where on crack its just fasinating to try to understand it all and these are all very very special horses so like all sports you are looking at nuances in performance at the top .
Who would be a judge ? At the Olympics cant even enjoy your lunch in case it makes you sleepy and then people say you are on crack !!!

 

[zefragile]

It's not like the judges don't give him the marks anyway, he's had over 80% before!

 

[Booboos]

But you have to look at where the angles are coming from. If you look carefully you can see that Fuego is showing typical Iberian freedom in the shoulder area. Though high, his front leg is gently bent at the knee showing all the lift is from the shoulder. The lower leg stays straight and neutral.

There is certainly no loss of hind leg engagement And his back has stayed lifted and engaged. He doesn't have the open frame of Parcival, but that is a conformational difference as the Iberians are much more short coupled.

Parcival in comparison is very strained through the shoulder, no doubt as a consequence of being over bent, making it hard to lift the shoulder. He is getting lift by flicking his leg out, especially from the fetlock. He looks less engaged and much more tense across the back and possibly a little hollow just behind the saddle.

So to me, it's about much more than a couple of leg angles! It's about the whole picture.

OK I get it now, if the lines are not parallel in an Iberian then it's because of its natural free shoulder, if they are not parallel in a rollkur trained WB then it's because it has flashy front movement and no back end engagement!

 

[Goldenstar]

OK I get it now, if the lines are not parallel in an Iberian then it's because of its natural free shoulder, if they are not parallel in a rollkur trained WB then it's because it has flashy front movement and no back end engagement!

Yes that's it all clear now.

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

Thats not what were trying to say at all, were saying its about the whole picture not just what the legs are doing, and fuego is open through his frame, pushing from the hind legs and soft through the back. Parzival is tense, on the forehand and looks like he's having the bits pulled out his mouth. Yes of course fuego as all horses have their failings, he looks tense at times (ive yet to find an iberian that doesnt get tense occasionally) and can sometimes look slightly btv, although that can be due in part to the natural short coupled stockiness that often make them look tighter in the neck than they actually are. Were not saying fuego's perfect and deserved to win, but on balance and comparing EVERYTHING in those 2 pictures, and watching the test as a whole i think one was unfairly marked against the other, especially considering there was over 10% difference between them.

Managed to find some comparison piaffe pics, but if its parallell lines your looking for will this do? Yet still remains in balance, pushing fro behind and light in the frame. Yes a photo is a moment in time, but i bet if you watch a video of adleinde's test again it does very little to defend why she deserved a silver medal.

heres one of rubi in piaffe (cant find one of fuego but seeing as rubi scored even less still valid to compare i think) lovely sit, no preassure on curb, balanced and harmonious

And one of parzival, not at the olympics but taken last year i think, so these pictures are obviously telling of what is her normal riding style. dont think i need to say anything more

 

[SO1]

Natwood I think you misunderstood what I meant by fuego showing less extention I meant he did not do some much extended work in the test not that the work he did do was not good. It was a comment about choreography which I think has an impact on the artistic scores.

 

[skewbaldpony]

Can't remember how to post a link! However, skewbaldpony has linked to the Grand Prix.
If you look at the results of the freestyle, the only judge to place Adelinde above Charlotte was ... you guessed it ... the Dutch judge for Technical merit! The artistic marks for both are mostly almost equal, but Charlotte achieved much higher marks for technical from all other judges. So how can home advantage have anything to do with that??

Yes, sorry, here's the Kur
https://data.fei.org/Result/ResultL...5598680497BF87DB2FFBB6C376748916CE9311174822F

I'm trying to see how the GB judge managed to find Adelinde's Kur five whole percentage points more *artistic* than Carls?!

I don't think it's hard to see where Fuego has come unstuck.

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

thats ok it wasnt solely directed at you, a lot of people do think iberians cant extend which is something im very passionate about disproving, and that a good iberian can be just as good as a warmblood on its day. Yes it may be lacking in certain areas (shortness in the neck, tension and finding extension naturally harder) but i think they are massively improving with modern breeding ,and the superb collected work they do so easily means theyre becoming increasingly popular in high level dressage. He's had that routine for a while i think and its what got him 4th in either weg or the europeans, i think maybe as piaffe/ passage and pirouettes are such a strong point maybe he does more of those for the artistic marks, the one times down the centre line one handed are his party piece, such a show off His artistic score was actually good but the technical score hugely marked down, and ithats what i cant understand when comparing with the likes of parzival, scandic and salinero that were all btv throughout the entire test. Would be interesting to read the score sheets and see just what and how they were marked on the technical side

 

[skewbaldpony]

all the numbers on the above links, natwood. No comments though I'm afraid.

and again I'm sure last time the actual sheets were visible and individual marks for each movement available. But I'm having no luck this time.

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

all the numbers on the above links, natwood. No comments though I'm afraid.

and again I'm sure last time the actual sheets were visible and individual marks for each movement available. But I'm having no luck this time.

Thanks, individual marks and comments would be the real teller though, just to break it down and see it from the judges perspective more. Normally id say it would stand as a useful tool for improvement in the future, but as it was so clearly biased i dont think anything constructive would (or should) be taken from it, not for the spanish or portugese at least.

 

[SusannaF]

If a magical Pony Club district commissioner had appeared at points of Adelinde's test and with a wave of her magic whip, made Parzifal's reins disappear, Adeline would have been impaled on her own cantle.

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

If a magical Pony Club district commissioner had appeared at points of Adelinde's test and with a wave of her magic whip, made Parzifal's reins disappear, Adeline would have been impaled on her own cantle.

pmsl and parzival would have nosedived into the ground i suspect!

 

[skewbaldpony]

If a magical Pony Club district commissioner had appeared at points of Adelinde's test and with a wave of her magic whip, made Parzifal's reins disappear, Adeline would have been impaled on her own cantle.

That's so funny.
Mind you if she'd done the same to Laura, she'd have been back in Gloucestershire

 

[cptrayes]

Personally I think a photo is a moment in time and doesn't tell you much, but just pointing out the irony of these photos if you buy into this sort of analysis in the first place.

I agree with you, but that photograph of Parzival is a moment in time which could have been taken at practically any moment during his test, as he was tense, tooth grinding, open mouthed, poll low and behind the verticle for almost all of it.

 

[BeesKnees]

OK I get it now, if the lines are not parallel in an Iberian then it's because of its natural free shoulder, if they are not parallel in a rollkur trained WB then it's because it has flashy front movement and no back end engagement!

Yep that's exactly it

[/QUOTE]

Thanks Natwood, another great comparison. As I've said already, Parcivals piaffe is all wrong. Weight on the forehand, back legs bouncing. It is frankly bizarre.

And again to repeat myself, piaffe is a precursor to levade (effectively a collected and controlled rear) So tell me Booboos, which horse wold you say would be able to lift into levade from these piaffes?

 

[zefragile]

And again to repeat myself, piaffe is a precursor to levade (effectively a collected and controlled rear) So tell me Booboos, which horse wold you say would be able to lift into levade from these piaffes?

Well, not wanting to speak for Booboos, I'm sure she knows which horse would be more able to lift into levade... that wasn't really what she was saying though?

 

[BeesKnees]

Well, not wanting to speak for Booboos, I'm sure she knows which horse would be more able to lift into levade... that wasn't really what she was saying though?

She has If I remember correctly (and full apologies if I'm wrong) previously stated that Parcivals work was correct especially the piaffe.

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

and furthermore from an analytical photographic point of view, parzivals extended trot was more 'correct' as it had the parallel lines truer than that of fuegos, regardless of what the rest of his body was doing!

 

[SO1]

The way freestyle is judged is quite different from standard dressage this helps alot to understand what the judges should be looking for

http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/up...elines for Judging Dressage to Music 2010.pdf

 

[paddy]

Leaving aside Adelinde, I much preferred the harmony achieved by Carl and Charlotte over Laura. If you're constantly hauling on your horse to stop it p'ing off, how is there harmony and submission? I didn't like watching her test at all, which is a shame as I really liked her way of teaching when watching the Horse Hero videos - all about not being 'handy'.

Much prefer EG's way of riding now he's not trained by Sjef. But please don't tar all Dutch dressage people with the same brush. My trainer is Dutch/German and is a huge advocate of long necks, relaxation and giving hands.

 

[HashRouge]

This may be slightly OT, but I was very impressed to see Gonçalo Carvalho wearing a proper riding hat! When I lived in Portugal I rode at a very large, very respectable riding school and livery stables in Lisbon and only the under-18s wore hats. All the adults, whether instructors, pupils or owners, went without. In fact, when I asked my RI if I could borrow a hat, he just shrugged at me and said "but you're an adult, you don't need one"! So go GC, not only is he a fab rider but maybe he's promoting riding hats in Portugal

I don't know about the technicalities of dressage, but I thought Parzival looked seriously uncomfortable, which isn't surprising when you see Adelinde leaning back on the reins with all her strength!! And I loved Rubi and what I saw of Valegro and Uthopia. Rubi is my new horse crush