Adelinde Cornelissen - happy horse?

Think it looks ruddy awful. Can't imagine life for the horse, bet he doesn't get turn out or hacking like Carl Hester's horses, who look happy. Stuck in a box all day, only to go to the school & be hauled about in the chops. No wonder dumb bloods are picked for dressage, few other blood horses would cope with it. Let the poor soul stretch & be a horse. If he's happier in the mind he'll be able to work better as will have less tension to start with. If an olympic gold medal winner can be turned out, any dressage horse can be.
 
I'm no dressage rider but I think you can fairly easily spot a happy relaxed horse working into a soft contact. I really disliked her ride at the Olympics and was surprised at the high marks she got - seems to spend a lot of time leaning back and hauling on the reins with pretty heavy hands (although I realise she is weeny and the horse is big). He seemed pretty unhappy in his mouth to me. Not nice to watch at all.
 
It is very difficult to tell whether any horse is happy as they cannot express themselves and it is especially difficult to tell whether a horse we have absolutely no familiarity with is happy (what is he like at home? Does he eat well, does he display stress vices like box walking and cribbing, does he call out to other horses for comfort?) but my view is that a horse does not perform so brilliantly at the absolutely top level with such amazing consistency without being happy.

Unwilling horses will only go that far before letting their riders down, competition, especially at that level and with such consistency, requires a co-operative horse that enjoys its job.

Calling her a 'witch' and misrepresenting a common occurence of a horse biting its tongue is very unfair. In the words of the much beloved Carl Hester, armchair critics should get out there and show us how they do better.
 
Stressage isn't my thing, but a happy, willing competition horse who loves their work is. On that level I think I do pretty well & am not an armchair critic but actually doing it. I use a myler, as my horse is over enthusiastic at times (she adores her work) & I don't want to be hauling on her, never has my horse cut her mouth or bled from it.
 
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Booboos said:
It is very difficult to tell whether any horse is happy as they cannot express themselves and it is especially difficult to tell whether a horse we have absolutely no familiarity with is happy (what is he like at home? Does he eat well, does he display stress vices like box walking and cribbing, does he call out to other horses for comfort?) but my view is that a horse does not perform so brilliantly at the absolutely top level with such amazing consistency without being happy.

Unwilling horses will only go that far before letting their riders down, competition, especially at that level and with such consistency, requires a co-operative horse that enjoys its job.

Calling her a 'witch' and misrepresenting a common occurence of a horse biting its tongue is very unfair. In the words of the much beloved Carl Hester, armchair critics should get out there and show us how they do better.
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Really? I think horses are very expressive - I always know if they are happy or not under saddle. They may or may not be obedient, though....
 
ozpoz said:
Really? I think horses are very expressive - I always know if they are happy or not under saddle. They may or may not be obedient, though....
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OK list which top dressage horses are happy and which are not, and please give us some kind of insight into your method for deciding this (animal communication does not count).
 
Booboos said:
He only said it at the BD convention in 2012 so not that old really!
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That may be so but it is a phrase I've been hearing and reading for years to try and silence critics especially in horsemanship. You don't have to be a top level dressage rider to have eyes, half a brain and some understanding of horses to have an opinion from the horses POV!
 
Booboos said:
[...] my view is that a horse does not perform so brilliantly at the absolutely top level with such amazing consistency without being happy.
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This is your view; I am not so sure myself. What I am sure about is that it is possible for a horse to be obedient (and hence co-operative, in a sense) without being happy.

In any case, isn't the argument about whether the horse is happy in hyperflexion, not during the test? I bet most horses would be relieved to be freed from the hyperflexed position.
 
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TheTrotter. said:
Its true though, do you ride at an olympic standard?
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ROFL! Er, not even in my dreams! Nor a I am a show jumper, qualified vet or farrier but I have a right to criticise their work if horses are compromised.

If we are not free to have an opinion, on any subject, then we may as well all go home.
 
An Animal Behaviourist would be able to answer you more scientifically Boo boos.
For me, I've been around equines for many years and I can tell by their expression, posture,response.
 
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I thought dressage was supposed to mimic the natural movement of the horse (or is that just haute école)? Anyhow, I've never seen a horse posturing with it's chin touching its chest before.
 
fburton said:
In any case, isn't the argument about whether the horse is happy in hyperflexion, not during the test? I bet most horses would be relieved to be freed from the hyperflexed position.
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I've been pondering if this feeling of relief following hyperflexion explains why some of the tests look more relaxed.
 
doriangrey said:
I thought dressage was supposed to mimic the natural movement of the horse (or is that just haute école)? Anyhow, I've never seen a horse posturing with it's chin touching its chest before.
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You never met mine then it's one of his Favorite games reversing round the field or into his friends in a proper rolkur position it's a bit bizarre but he does it a lot when he's playing along passage and piaffe and all the other moves .
He also plays with sticks looks like a huge Labrador .
He's a strange horse.
 
I don't have children. Does it mean I can't tell when a child is uncomfortable?

Booboos it may score high, but that does not mean that everyone agrees he is going well. His piaffe is a bizarre back end bounce with the front glued to the floor, yet it scores well.

At the Olympics he was constantly uneasy in his mouth, chomping at the bit.
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When he was definitely in pain from his kissing spines, my own horse consented to do a test which got affiliated points , so I disagree that Parzival cannot have produced those results and been unhappy.
 
amandap said:
That may be so but it is a phrase I've been hearing and reading for years to try and silence critics especially in horsemanship. You don't have to be a top level dressage rider to have eyes, half a brain and some understanding of horses to have an opinion from the horses POV!
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There are a number of self styled experts out there who neither compete at top level, or train horses at top level, or train riders at top level, or have any scientific publications on horse physiology or ethology and still claim expertise. I do not agree with either them or you that all that is needed to be a horse expert is eyes and half a brain.

Tell me this using your eyes and even the whole of your brain: what is it like to be a bat?
 
cptrayes said:
I don't have children. Does it mean I can't tell when a child is uncomfortable?

Booboos it may score high, but that does not mean that everyone agrees he is going well. His piaffe is a bizarre back end bounce with the front glued to the floor, yet it scores well.

At the Olympics he was constantly uneasy in his mouth, chomping at the bit.
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When he was definitely in pain from his kissing spines, my own horse consented to do a test which got affiliated points , so I disagree that Parzival cannot have produced those results and been unhappy.
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His piaffe is exceptional with the most incredible engagement of his back end, which is why it scores so highly.

So now the claim is that Parzival is actually in pain and not just unhappy? How come this has been missed by every team vet, Olympic vet and international vet that has seen him in his long, long career? If it is possible for a horse to have a painful, major problem and still get Parzival's results then he is truly a wonderous horse.
 
Goldenstar said:
You never met mine then it's one of his Favorite games reversing round the field or into his friends in a proper rolkur position it's a bit bizarre but he does it a lot when he's playing along passage and piaffe and all the other moves .
He also plays with sticks looks like a huge Labrador .
He's a strange horse.
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Yes, I've seen a lot of moves - my (then) stallion used to posture in front of the geldings and perform, even airs above the ground (separated by a 5 foot electric fence). I've never seen any of my horses position themselves in rolkur - although they could easily scratch their chest with their teeth - guess it's different doing it because you want to and doing it because you are forced to.. We used to have a 'special' gelding, and when we played football in the field he would grab hold of the ball and run off. He played with sticks too :D
 
He also has an amazing ability to stay in rhytmn even when clearly tense in most horses tension equals lost rhytmn but not in Parsizal .
However I have never admired the way they go as a pair and will never understand why the judges thought he was better than MH and LB in London ( clearly I am not a world class judge ) .
It does not mean you cannot see why he's been so sucessful
 
Booboos said:
His piaffe is exceptional with the most incredible engagement of his back end, which is why it scores so highly.
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I see the back end bouncing, I do not see it engaged and supporting his front end. The last one I saw, he exploded and did not piaffe at all.


So now the claim is that Parzival is actually in pain and not just unhappy? How come this has been missed by every team vet, Olympic vet and international vet that has seen him in his long, long career? If it is possible for a horse to have a painful, major problem and still get Parzival's results then he is truly a wonderous horse.
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I did not say that Parzival was in pain. My horse was definitely in pain yet still got points. It is not a given that Parzival is happy just because he wins.
 
Booboos said:
His piaffe is exceptional with the most incredible engagement of his back end, which is why it scores so highly.
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We must be watching a different horse, his bum is up and down like a jack in a box lol

That is not engagement, it is the opposite
 
Booboos said:
There are a number of self styled experts out there who neither compete at top level, or train horses at top level, or train riders at top level, or have any scientific publications on horse physiology or ethology and still claim expertise. I do not agree with either them or you that all that is needed to be a horse expert is eyes and half a brain.

Tell me this using your eyes and even the whole of your brain: what is it like to be a bat?
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I'll repeat my question. I don't have children. Does that mean that I can't tell if a child is unhappy?

I do, on the other hand, have horses and just because I don't ride them at Grand Prix Internationally does not mean that I cannot watch a video and see photos and know whether the horse in them is comfortable at that time.

I think your argument does no justice to a person of your intellect and occupation Booboos. Are you seriously an internationalexpert in every single question that you consider as a member of your ethics committee?
 
Booboos said:
There are a number of self styled experts out there who neither compete at top level, or train horses at top level, or train riders at top level, or have any scientific publications on horse physiology or ethology and still claim expertise. I do not agree with either them or you that all that is needed to be a horse expert is eyes and half a brain.

Tell me this using your eyes and even the whole of your brain: what is it like to be a bat?
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You left out the 'some understanding of horses' bit. Even with my full (small) brain I couldn't imagine what it's like to be a bat nor do I understand any of their communication signals or physiology etc. I have never spent time with bats or studied them to any level.

Tell me what science and ethology say about the tail swishing, the extreme neck flexion, sight line and oxygen intake he has in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InfgSpAl_GY
 
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Watching the Europeans this year I thought how much better Parzival was going, and he did look more relaxed. I think she saw how the Carl Hester trained horses go and tried to go more that way, well done her.
 
Clodagh said:
Watching the Europeans this year I thought how much better Parzival was going, and he did look more relaxed. I think she saw how the Carl Hester trained horses go and tried to go more that way, well done her.
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I also thought he looked softer , these riders are amazingly talented they will ' go' where they feel the marks are with their training .
 
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