Adelinde Cornelissen - happy horse?

[amandap]

- there is no evidence that working a horse in hyperflexion (or rollkur if you prefer) causes any kind of pain or sight problems, or breathing problems.

- by extension it is not clear to me why the horse would be unhappy as such.

Happyness or unhappyness are probably not the best words to use as we really can't know as you point out.

I believe there is evidence that rollkur causes physical and mental distress. http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(08)00287-6/abstract
There are also studies using scopes which have shown a dynamic collapse of the trachea on inhalation when the neck is flexed severely. Although I am unsure how scientifically valid these may be and I believe others have been unable to reproduce this effect.

Totally unscientific there is also the 'vibe' many of us not conditioned or used to seeing horses worked this way get from observing the horse. Many of us see the distress/discomfort or a horse struggling and even objecting to the extreme abnormal posture in exertion. Could there be an element of those in these circles being desensitized to this and not able to be fully objective? Culture and what we see and experience every day are powerful forces in our personal normality and ethics. My personal view is there is always a case for external critique, yes much may not be valid but being in a closed, untouchable, niche world is a recipe for skewed norms.

I agree with fburton who puts things so much better than me.

Of course we cannot be 100% sure that what looks like suffering or unhappiness actually is (arguably even in fellow humans). Nevertheless, we base our moral standards on the assumption that we can tell, at least to first approximation, whether animals are feeling fear, pain, distress, discomfort etc. If we were to accept the argument that, just because we can't know what it is really like to be a bat that uncertainty allows all manner of mistreatment and cruelty, where would we be? Trying telling the RSPCA (for example) "Do you know what it is like to be a cat? No? So ****** off and leave me to carry on neglecting my house full of moggies" and see how far you get!

 

[amandap]

It amazes me how people are quick to criticise top riders and I think they forget that many of these horses would be downright dangerous for amateurs as they are so hot and sensitive. I for one would not criticise Adelinde as although I have trained my own horses to Prix St Georg level I would not dream of getting on something like Parzival, Salineiro, Scandic etc as I am sure they would scare the bejeezers out of me. Its a bit like people who never use draw reins have clearly never ridden a naughty youngster that is threatening to put you on the floor for fun! I would love to see how long the people here who are criticising would last on top of Parzival!

Yes, if those of us not involved can't give a negative critique then surely that also applies to positive critique from 'outsiders'.

I always worry when claims are made that horses are potentially dangerous are too difficult for less 'expert' riders. Why? Dressage is supposed to produce a willing and obedient horse not a monster.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes, if those of us not involved can't give a negative critique then surely that also applies to positive critique from 'outsiders'.

I always worry when claims are made that horses are potentially dangerous are too difficult for less 'expert' riders. Why? Dressage is supposed to produce a willing and obedient horse not a monster.

But they are willing and they are obedient .
Because the levels of energy and power the sharpness of the brain of the horses who have been selectively bred for this top end work does make them mounts for the best balanced most talented riders .
they are not monsters at all they are purpose bred for their job they are as specialist an animal as a F1 car is a specialist car and you would not want to take such a car to sainsburys .
They are not produced to be ridden by an ordinary rider it's not what they are for .
Within the top level horses some are of course hotter than others because they are indviduals but they will all be very sharp by 'normal ' standards .

No amount of any sort of training would make say , Glock Uncover suitable for an ordinary rider.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

it doesnt produce a monster, but these horses are bred to be huge moving, elastic and super quick thinking plus reactive, which is a reciepe for disaster in the wrong hands and not many amateurs are going to be able to sit one side of it! so whilst they are willing and obedient for a good enough rider, for someone not good enough they are a disaster waiting to happen.

very few of these top athletes are going to be ballsy enough, and mentally reactive enough to compete at GP week in week out and also chilled anough to let joe blogs plod down the lane on them, to expect them to be both is unrealistic imo. They are not monsters, just fit, sharp, hot headed.

 

[chestnut cob]

I believe there is evidence that rollkur causes physical and mental distress. http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(08)00287-6/abstract
There are also studies using scopes which have shown a dynamic collapse of the trachea on inhalation when the neck is flexed severely. Although I am unsure how scientifically valid these may be and I believe others have been unable to reproduce this effect.

I don't believe a) 15 horses makes for a statistically significant sample, b) you can extrapolate this result onto the entire population of working / competition horses worldwide, and c) you can talk about banning a practise based upon a sample of 15 horses (though I do note the study author says more work needs doing, but they don't say more of the same, just work to look at gradual RK training over coercive RK).

I've had a look at AC's most recent test and have to agree it looks a lot better than older tests. The video that has been mentioned earlier in this thread is from a few years ago isn't it? So I can't understand why it has been brought up now. If the rider really is changing the way she trains and the horse is softer and less tense, then let's judge on what is in front of us now, not something that happened 3 years ago.

I also wonder... I practise yoga. Many, if not all, of the stretches involve some form of hyperflexion of various body parts. They are hard and you are aware of the position you are putting your body into. If you look at vids/ pics of people who have been practising yoga for a long time, they can get into some incredibly hyperflexed positions and stayed there for a long time. Now I know they have chosen to do that and the argument that will be thrown at me will be that the horse has no choice, but I know from my own body that while a stretch might be a bit uncomfy for a while, the benefits afterwards are massive. The night before I have a riding lesson I will do an hour of back stretching and hip opening yoga poses, and the difference in my riding the following day is immense. Then the evening after a lesson, I will usually do another back stretching session to relieve any tight muscles. So one could question, what makes my yoga practise that much different to some hyperflexion in a horse? Not necessarily advocating it, but it's worth considering.

I have a BEVA book and DVD on stretching for horses, and have stretches given to me by my horse's physio, which all consist of some form of hyperflexed stretch. Stretches which take the horse's head to his chest, and between his front legs, are regularly recommended to lift, round and open the back. My physio tells me of a vet practice she works with who, when they have performed KS surgery on a horse, will then recommend it spends 6 weeks being lunged in RK/ hyperflexion... to encourage it to lift, round and open up its back.

 

[Brownmare]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread as most of what I would say has already been said but I do want to point out, in response to PS's post above, that Valegro is hacked out once a week by an 80 year old lady. Just throwing that one out there

 

[fburton]

It amazes me how people are quick to criticise top riders and I think they forget that many of these horses would be downright dangerous for amateurs as they are so hot and sensitive. I for one would not criticise Adelinde as although I have trained my own horses to Prix St Georg level I would not dream of getting on something like Parzival, Salineiro, Scandic etc as I am sure they would scare the bejeezers out of me. Its a bit like people who never use draw reins have clearly never ridden a naughty youngster that is threatening to put you on the floor for fun! I would love to see how long the people here who are criticising would last on top of Parzival!

With respect, that's not the point.

 

[_GG_]

it doesnt produce a monster, but these horses are bred to be huge moving, elastic and super quick thinking plus reactive, which is a reciepe for disaster in the wrong hands and not many amateurs are going to be able to sit one side of it! so whilst they are willing and obedient for a good enough rider, for someone not good enough they are a disaster waiting to happen.

very few of these top athletes are going to be ballsy enough, and mentally reactive enough to compete at GP week in week out and also chilled anough to let joe blogs plod down the lane on them, to expect them to be both is unrealistic imo. They are not monsters, just fit, sharp, hot headed.

This ^^^

A GP horse understands precise and extremely subtle aids. There's the famous clip of Nicky (forget surname) riding one of Carl Hesters schoolmasters and falling off. She didn't do anything wrong, her riding was just not precise enough and subtle enough. The horse just did what she asked of it and responded to her aids. She didn't want faster and faster, but that's what she got when her legs gripped harder and harder. Nobody's fault but a good reminder that a highly schooled horse is not a novice ride.

There are always exceptions, but I think they are rarer in dressage than any other discipline. The variation of aids for different movements can be a matter of cms of placement of the leg or the slightest shift of weight in the seatbone. Not the horses fault, just a result of the training.

 

[amandap]

I can see the big movement is a factor in riding ability as well as ability to train and ride to that level but is the temperament really all down to breeding? Seems a bit of that old excuse that is rolled out to explain away any human critique and excuse even validate coercive training.

 

[amandap]

she has not outright said her use of rollkur/HF was wrong but what she has said is that she has taken on board comments made at the olympics and is workint towards a lighter, less compressed, way of going. So she accepts she was going down the wrong path or using too extreme methods and is now trying to change that to a certain degree (i doubt she isw going to stop the deep/LDR/rollkur/HF 100% but perhaps wont use it so much/so extremely/so prolonged?).

That is good to hear from an outsider.

Of course LDR is FEI legal and rollkur isn't. lol

ps. As a aside I was jumped on on another forum liking a video of a test this pair did! lol

 

[_GG_]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread as most of what I would say has already been said but I do want to point out, in response to PS's post above, that Valegro is hacked out once a week by an 80 year old lady. Just throwing that one out there

I could let a child hack out on Fly, but in the school I'd take a bullet before letting a child on her back.

 

[kc100]

Going back to what the thread was originally started about - I personally would not want to pay to see someone that willingly has used/uses rollkur. It is great that she has changed her methods following the Olympics, good for her to accept she needs to change but as someone else already said, if she had won Olympic gold would she have changed anything? I highly doubt it.

And that is where my problem lies with her, she uses whatever method is most likely to enable her to win, not the method that she feels is best for the horse. Of course these are competition horses, and they are bred for a purpose - to compete to the highest level and to hopefully do well at that level. But it should not be at any price, the rider should want a relaxed comfortable horse over a tense, hyper-flexed horse.

It is not for us to say whether rollkur causes them pain, we are not equine mind readers - all we can say is that it doesnt look comfortable nor is it natural. As as a rider we should not want to put a horse into a position that to the human eye looks uncomfortable.

If BD were going to get a foreign speaker for the convention I personally would have preferred to see Helen Langehanenberg (whatever her name is!) - I love watching her and Damon Hill, she would be very interesting as she is currently closest to rivaling Charlotte and Valegro. Or Edward Gal with his vast experience at top level dressage.

 

[Goldenstar]

I can see the big movement is a factor in riding ability as well as ability to train and ride to that level but is the temperament really all down to breeding? Seems a bit of that old excuse that is rolled out to explain away any human critique and excuse even validate coercive training.

Any one who has worked with lots of horses will tell you that the temperament traits are very very strong .You can sometimes gues the breeding by the way they go it's true of TBs too strong temperament traits in the family lines.
KWPNs are graded for trainability and that in effect means sharp how quickly they pick things up.
This does tend to make the top lines very challenging for the rider but it's true at the lower levels too my OH can't ride my horses they are just too tuned for him although most will manage a walking hack with him , the Dutch horse I have at the moment is from a very hot line he and my OH would be a disaster it would like a monkey playing with a razor blade .
I am very careful how I ride my OHs I amend my training to keep them right for him and we select temperaments suitable for him.
Of course poor training effects behaviour but any one who's bred horses will tell you they pop out of the womb with their character intact it's one of the amazing things about it you see it in dogs and people as well we are born with our characters what happens in life shapes it but you work with what you are given at birth.

 

[cptrayes]

perhaps rather than getting so wound up in how the horse USED to go, would it not be better to discuss the things that have improved bewteen the olympics and the Euros? the horse is clearly softer, more open in the neck and more relaxed.....perfect it may not be (yet) but the rider is clearly trying to go down a different path having held her hands up and realised her mistake. Surely better to commend her for trying to rectify this situation than to continue to critisise her for what she USED to do?

i wouldnt be too critical of the piaffe either, it shows tremendous energy and ability to stay on the spot so although he doesnt *sit* as well as eg Valegro, is he any better or any worse than some horses which show tremendous sit but barely pick their hind feet up of the floor and seem to shuffle from one diagonal to the other?
I am going through a difficult time currently, trying to improve CS's piaffe and i can tell you that in a horse that doesnt naturally sit, its incredibly incredibly hard to influence the rhythm and the engagement. If you havent ever done this perhaps be a bit more cautious in your crit, as you have zero idea of just how hard it can be? The piaffe may not be the best on the circuit but neither is it the worst (by a long long way).

I also think that whilst there are moments that make me cringe and plenty of pics that show a clearly not happy Parcival, there are many many more pics of unhappy horses as basic amateur level and it would be interesting to watch vids of everyone who is so venomous towads Adelinde, on this thread. If you cannot ride at even nov, elem, or med level without your hands bouncing up in time with your seat bouncing up, yanking the horse every stride in the mouth, and slamming down on his back,showing no lateral suppleness and no softness over the back.................im really not sure you have any place to be so critical.
Dressage welfare is just as important at the lower levels and people would do well to look to themselves first before being quite so determined to hang draw and quarter Adelinde.

Sorry Princess, I don't and never will buy the ' you can't criticise unless you are a paragon of virtue yourself' argument.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

re Valegro, he is noted as being quite easy at home, but equally there is a pic of him rearing (and a bloody good rear) in the prizegiving at a show in Florida. So dont for a second think that horses trained in the *carl hester* way are 100% easy going and relaible and that LDR/rollkur/HF turns horses in to raving loonies, because its more about each horse in each individual situation.

ditto whoever pointed out about Nikki Chapman coming off Fernandez-a notoriously laid back GP horse but still far too much for the average rider.

Kc100- so you dont think Ed Gal ever puts Glocks Undercover very very deep to gain control of that hot headed powerhouse..........................thats no critisism of him but its interesting that Adelinde is a villain for riding deep and having a short tense horse but EG is not? Undercover is insanely tense at time, but somehow thats more acceptable? This is in NO WAY a critisism of either of them and there have been more pics of Adelinde that have made even me go "hmmmmmm" but i would bet there are just as many not so pretty pics of Undercover looking rather tense and strong and ditto Mistral Hojiris, a notoriously strong horse who in the early days needed a lot of obvious flexing and BIG half halts to keep him under control.
I think the shortening of the neck makes Undercover and Parcival appear worse than a horse which pulls but keeps its neck out, neither is any more correct but the latter more easily covered up.

what im trying to say in a very lond winded way is that there are SO many factors to take in to account and few people know the full story to each horse, so lets try and stick with the positives here, esp as Adelinde HAS said she is trying for more lightness now days.

 

[fburton]

I don't believe a) 15 horses makes for a statistically significant sample,

Surely that depends on what you are trying to show. Evidently n=15 was sufficient to show effects to a standard level of significance (P<0.05) in the horses used in this trial.

b) you can extrapolate this result onto the entire population of working / competition horses worldwide,

No, but it is suggestive that the same considerations apply - assuming that they weren't unlucky in picking a totally unrepresentative sample of performance horses.

and c) you can talk about banning a practise based upon a sample of 15 horses

No indeed - a point made in the abstract.

"These findings indicate that a coercively obtained Rollkur position may be uncomfortable for horses and that it makes them more fearful and therefore potentially more dangerous to ride. Further studies need to assess horses’ reaction to gradual training of Rollkur, as opposed to a coercively obtained hyperflexion, in order to decide whether the practice should be banned."

 

[MadJ]

Carl Hester deserves every bit of the recognition he's finally got outside of England. He truly is a master of his craft but it's taken so many years for the world to sit up and take note. Changes don't happen over night. The "Anky" way crept in slowly and became the norm as it got the medals.

10 years ago I worked at a pro dressage yard and those horses lived in draw reins and were lunged in 2 sets of tight side reins. I personally disliked it but it got results. I was actually disgusted at the pro's trainer (British Olympic level rider). Who was I to argue being a mere mortal and, at the time, still trying to master the art of sitting trot for any length of time? There's noway I'd treat my own like that.

I really hope this change that has come about in the dressage world is here to stay.

 

[amandap]

I don't believe a) 15 horses makes for a statistically significant sample, b) you can extrapolate this result onto the entire population of working / competition horses worldwide, and c) you can talk about banning a practise based upon a sample of 15 horses (though I do note the study author says more work needs doing, but they don't say more of the same, just work to look at gradual RK training over coercive RK).

I've had a look at AC's most recent test and have to agree it looks a lot better than older tests. The video that has been mentioned earlier in this thread is from a few years ago isn't it? So I can't understand why it has been brought up now. If the rider really is changing the way she trains and the horse is softer and less tense, then let's judge on what is in front of us now, not something that happened 3 years ago.

I also wonder... I practise yoga. Many, if not all, of the stretches involve some form of hyperflexion of various body parts. They are hard and you are aware of the position you are putting your body into. If you look at vids/ pics of people who have been practising yoga for a long time, they can get into some incredibly hyperflexed positions and stayed there for a long time. Now I know they have chosen to do that and the argument that will be thrown at me will be that the horse has no choice, but I know from my own body that while a stretch might be a bit uncomfy for a while, the benefits afterwards are massive. The night before I have a riding lesson I will do an hour of back stretching and hip opening yoga poses, and the difference in my riding the following day is immense. Then the evening after a lesson, I will usually do another back stretching session to relieve any tight muscles. So one could question, what makes my yoga practise that much different to some hyperflexion in a horse? Not necessarily advocating it, but it's worth considering.

I have a BEVA book and DVD on stretching for horses, and have stretches given to me by my horse's physio, which all consist of some form of hyperflexed stretch. Stretches which take the horse's head to his chest, and between his front legs, are regularly recommended to lift, round and open the back. My physio tells me of a vet practice she works with who, when they have performed KS surgery on a horse, will then recommend it spends 6 weeks being lunged in RK/ hyperflexion... to encourage it to lift, round and open up its back.

Of course a sample of 15 is not considered significant it was the first study I came across to refute the claim there was no evidence. I find it very odd that a practice has to be proved to be harmful as opposed to proving it isn't where welfare is a concern.

I assume you and your horses perform your extreme hyperflexion of the neck whilst moving at all paces carrying a weight? lol Oh and on most days for years.

 

[cptrayes]

My physio tells me of a vet practice she works with who, when they have performed KS surgery on a horse, will then recommend it spends 6 weeks being lunged in RK/ hyperflexion... to encourage it to lift, round and open up its back.

As someone currently hacking and schooling a horse seven weeks post KS surgery, I can definitively say that this is not necessary. I did not even lunge mine in the pessoa that all vets seem to consider a mandatory part of the rehab, because I don't believe in trussing my horse up like a turkey. (See my other threads in the vet section for video of him at 25 days on the lunge and 42 days ridden).


Ps by 'encourage' they mean 'force' of course. Nice way to treat a horse with a sore back and likely to add a sore neck to his rehab, I would think

 

[Auslander]

Bit of a random musing here, but it interests me that its mainly the Dutch riders who are first to get hammered for Rollkur. Interesting because they predominantly ride KWPN horses, the majority of which have Gelderlander in their ancestry. Gelderlanders are a pretty unique shape - swan necked, hollow backs and flat rumps, with high action, all designed to make them great driving horses. The preponderance of Gelderlander in many KWPN horses, to me, makes for a lot of horses who don't have the physical frame to be able to work as round over the back as other warmblood breeds. They also tend towards excessively flashy action, and a tendency, enabled by the swan necked conformation, to suck up and back at the rider. I'm not saying that Rollkur is not used as a training tactic, just that there are a lot of horses who work in a way that is not pleasing to our eyes, but somewhat natural to them due to the way they are bolted together.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Sorry Princess, I don't and never will buy the ' you can't criticise unless you are a paragon of virtue yourself' argument.

im no paragon of virtue but equally i can look at myself and my horses and be relatively content with how they are going/looking/appear in public. I never stop trying to improve, as Adelinde too is now trying to improve certain aspects of her work.
Some people are so blinded by their own waffle, they either dont want or cant, heed the advice given by judges etc and cannot see their own riding and lack of knowledge is the cause of their problems. Those people are in no place to crit anyone else IMO, because they are too blind or too ignorant or too big headed to see their own faults let alone try and understand the complexity of riding several hundred levels up.

big diff bewteen being a (relative to Adelinde) lower level rider,relatively succesful at that level, who doesnt like or doesnt understand what they see, and someone who has never produced anything note worthy, but harps on like they are the next Carl Hester! They need to spend less time online picking fault with others and more time taking lessons. But that, is a whole other topic

 

[chestnut cob]

No indeed - a point made in the abstract.

"These findings indicate that a coercively obtained Rollkur position may be uncomfortable for horses and that it makes them more fearful and therefore potentially more dangerous to ride. Further studies need to assess horses&#8217; reaction to gradual training of Rollkur, as opposed to a coercively obtained hyperflexion, in order to decide whether the practice should be banned."

And I did make that point later on in that sentence you quoted of my post. Please don't quote me out of context to make your point. I did state that the article said more studies were needed, looking at gradual RK training...

 

[fburton]

And I did make that point later on in that sentence you quoted of my post. Please don't quote me out of context to make your point. I did state that the article said more studies were needed, looking at gradual RK training...

Yes, you did - and actually I wasn't contradicting you on that point! I disagreed with you on point a), commented on point b) and agreed with you on point c).

 

[chestnut cob]

As someone currently hacking and schooling a horse seven weeks post KS surgery, I can definitively say that this is not necessary. I did not even lunge mine in the lessons that all vets seem to consider a mandatory part of the rehab, because I don't believe in trusting my horse up like a turkey. (See my other threads in the vet section for video of him st 25 days on the lunge and 42 days ridden).

Yes, I've seen your posts and I'm pleased your horse is improving and feeling better. But 1 horse is not a statistically representative sample. Based on my own sample of one, I know that when I had a horse with exhibited back pain, after consultation with vet and physio, said horse had 6 weeks of lungeing in draw reins, pole work and flat schooling, and the difference in him was phenomenal. Back pain disappeared entirely.

 

[chestnut cob]

Yes, you did - and actually I wasn't contradicting you on that point! I disagreed with you on point a), commented on point b) and agreed with you on point c).

Ah, sorry!

 

[cptrayes]

im no paragon of virtue but equally i can look at myself and my horses and be relatively content with how they are going/looking/appear in public. I never stop trying to improve, as Adelinde too is now trying to improve certain aspects of her work.
Some people are so blinded by their own waffle, they either dont want or cant, heed the advice given by judges etc and cannot see their own riding and lack of knowledge is the cause of their problems. Those people are in no place to crit anyone else IMO, because they are too blind or too ignorant or too big headed to see their own faults let alone try and understand the complexity of riding several hundred levels up.

big diff bewteen being a (relative to Adelinde) lower level rider,relatively succesful at that level, who doesnt like or doesnt understand what they see, and someone who has never produced anything note worthy, but harps on like they are the next Carl Hester! They need to spend less time online picking fault with others and more time taking lessons. But that, is a whole other topic

Who is this person you want to see taking lessons instead of posting on here Princess?

I rather thought this thread was getting interesting and entertaining contributions from lots of people.

Can you specify which poster it is who you think has no right to comment on the riding of someone being paid to speak publicly by BD??

 

[fburton]

im no paragon of virtue but equally i can look at myself and my horses and be relatively content with how they are going/looking/appear in public. I never stop trying to improve, as Adelinde too is now trying to improve certain aspects of her work.
Some people are so blinded by their own waffle, they either dont want or cant, heed the advice given by judges etc and cannot see their own riding and lack of knowledge is the cause of their problems. Those people are in no place to crit anyone else IMO, because they are too blind or too ignorant or too big headed to see their own faults let alone try and understand the complexity of riding several hundred levels up.

Several hundred, eh? Sorry, I just don't buy this "appeal to authority" argument. Would you also consider it wrong for anyone to criticize e.g. what Pat Parelli did to the headshy Catwalk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus) just because they are however many Parelli-levels below the great man himself?

 

[cptrayes]

Yes, I've seen your posts and I'm pleased your horse is improving and feeling better. But 1 horse is not a statistically representative sample. Based on my own sample of one, I know that when I had a horse with exhibited back pain, after consultation with vet and physio, said horse had 6 weeks of lungeing in draw reins, pole work and flat schooling, and the difference in him was phenomenal. Back pain disappeared entirely.

Which also does not prove that if you had treated him a different way he would not have had just as good a result. I agree, one horse means nothing. Some proper research instead of insisting on box rest and restrictive lunging would be good to see for KS horses.

 

[fburton]

Ah, sorry!

No worries! Feelings tend to run high when debating a subject like this, and I'm not immune from becoming a little heated myself.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Several hundred, eh? Sorry, I just don't buy this "appeal to authority" argument. Would you also consider it wrong for anyone to criticize e.g. what Pat Parelli did to the headshy Catwalk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus) just because they are however many Parelli-levels below the great man himself?

im trying hard not just point blank say, if you are not at THAT level you cannot crit, and I have also said theres a big diff (IMO) between a fairly level headed "i dont undertsand this" from a lower level but fairly educated (riding wise) person and someone just point blank exclaiming "this is wrong" which more often than not tends to come from someone who thinks their way is the only way or is very evangelical about the particular way they do things.

the best riders (again IMO) are those who are open minded to all approaches and try to balance negative with positive, especially in the case of an obviously succesful rider. It silly to say that everything she does is wrong or abusive because if it were, she would not be at the top of the sport (as contrary to the waffle of the evangelicals, the whole sport is not a great big political con, twisted to allow animal abuse to win). There simply must be some good in some of what she does, but that rarely gets discussed/balanced.

Would i flex CS as hard as she does Parcival? No. Have i ridden horses in the past that have needed it? Yes. Have i done so? yes, to a slightly lesser degree, and looking back, some things i would change and some i would not. None of us are perfect, Adelinde icnluded and she is now trying a different path, so lets commend that and focus on what has improved instead of getting riled by a very very old vid?

again, im NOT saying if you dont ride GP you cant comment, but perhaps accept that if you have never trained a horse to that level, you cannot possibly understand the complication, the difficulties, the sheet mind boggling balancing act it can be. Perhaps be a little more accepting of what you dont know?