Adelinde Cornelissen - happy horse?

Goldenstar said:
I also thought he looked softer , these riders are amazingly talented they will ' go' where they feel the marks are with their training .
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Well yes if she hadn't been beaten at the Olympics then she wouldn't have changed her style, but I still think the overall picture was much more pleasing.
 
Booboos said:
It is very difficult to tell whether any horse is happy as they cannot express themselves and it is especially difficult to tell whether a horse we have absolutely no familiarity with is happy (what is he like at home? Does he eat well, does he display stress vices like box walking and cribbing, does he call out to other horses for comfort?) but my view is that a horse does not perform so brilliantly at the absolutely top level with such amazing consistency without being happy.

Unwilling horses will only go that far before letting their riders down, competition, especially at that level and with such consistency, requires a co-operative horse that enjoys its job.

Calling her a 'witch' and misrepresenting a common occurence of a horse biting its tongue is very unfair. In the words of the much beloved Carl Hester, armchair critics should get out there and show us how they do better.
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Well Booboo, it's fairly easy to see if a horse is happy or not IMO. (You can have a debate about the use of the word happy and whether or not it is an appropriate word to use in this context, but leave me out, lol).

These horses, appear resigned to me and are coping in a situation they are trapped in. Trapped by the rider and the equipment. It's a lets get this over with situation. They co operate because it takes away the spur and the bit pain.

I like Carl Hester a lot, but coming out with remarks like that is a bit puerile, and he knows he's pretty safe having had some luck, help and opportunity other riders with his level of talent haven't had.

Horses biting their tongue isn't that common occurrence, unless they are attempting to relieve pressure with their tongue. There was also some suggestion the horse was bleeding from cuts to the gum rather than the tongue, but I suppose the tongue story is maybe more 'acceptable'.

I think the woman is a witch as she like many other riders puts ambition and winning before the horse every time. I don't like that, but it obviously doesn't bother some others, who see horses as more of a tool or machine.

I'd like to think she has had a change of heart about her riding and looking to be a bit more horse friendly, for want of a better expression. On the other hand the events at the Olympic's may well have given her food for thought. I was fascinated to watch Charlotte's horses behaviour after the competition compared to Cornelissens.
 
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I thought Parzival's Euro test this year was far more pleasing to the eye than his Olympic performance. There did appear to be a positive change and a softer look to his way of going. He's a big, long horse (compared to the likes of Valegro) so possibly more likely to drop btv when he looses balance or gets anxious.
At least Adelinde is trying to move with the times. Credit where credit's due.
 
ester said:
She seems a somewhat odd choice for a BD convention when we have so many better options on site :p - and I would think that most british riders would prefer their methods over hers.
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Exactly what I was thinking!


It would be funny if they couldn't sell the tickets :p
 
Booboos said:
There are a number of self styled experts out there who neither compete at top level, or train horses at top level, or train riders at top level, or have any scientific publications on horse physiology or ethology and still claim expertise. I do not agree with either them or you that all that is needed to be a horse expert is eyes and half a brain.

Tell me this using your eyes and even the whole of your brain: what is it like to be a bat?
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I don't have dogs, know very little about dogs, but I can look at a dog and tell from it's posture and body language if it is anxious, excited, scared, cold etc. Surely that is just part of being a compassionate human?

I have no idea if rollkur is painful for a horse, or even uncomfortable, only the horse can tell us that. I do know that horses look uncomfortable in that position, and that it is physically compromising, and if the same results can be achieved without using that method, why resort to it?
 
We've just had her here in New Zealand for Equidays and she was awesome!

I'm sure we have all been guilty of doing something that is not quite agreeable - there are MANY riders who place their horses on the bit by see sawing on the horses mouth!
 
I don't like the method she uses and can't see its very nice for the horse. Certainly very different in overall impression to Carl and Charlottes horses, who look more relaxed and harmonious.
Although I think he looks a bit more relaxed in recent tests.
Cant think when worked so roughly he can enjoy it.
 
Apologies for the general reply but I have to pop the horses in and I don't have time to reply to individual messages:

- philosophy is the study of good arguments which means that the discipline concerns itself with absolutely everything from the philosophy of mathematics, to ethics, to political philosophy and the study of the metaphysics of time. I don't sit on ethics committees, I have in the past trained ethics committees. I have as much a right to comment on anything that takes my fancy on the forum as anyone else.

- piaffe is a diagonal movement and as such the hip bones will move up and down. Parcival's piaffe is extremely engaged as shown by the convex shape of his back and his hind legs coming really under his body. Makign one mistake in one piaffe in one test does not mean the horse cannot piaffe, it just means he is a horse.

- there is no evidence that working a horse in hyperflexion (or rollkur if you prefer) causes any kind of pain or sight problems, or breathing problems.

- by extension it is not clear to me why the horse would be unhappy as such.

- mental states, such as happiness, are subjective experiences of other subjects, whose minds we have no access to. We can only rely on what these subjects communicate to us and a supposition of commonality. The further away from the human experience one goes and the greater the barriers to communication, the more difficult it is to make assumptions about other states of minds. So it makes little sense to us as human beings to ask what it is like to be a bat as we'd need to imagine what it would be like to see the world through echo location rather than sight - an impossible task. Many PETA supporters see it as self evident that any use of horses in riding or as pets makes them unhappy and those of you who rely on your self-evident common sense to say that Parcival is clearly unhappy join very poor reasoning company with PETA and have no arguments to refute their self-evident claims.

- one of the least subscribed BD conventions in the last decade was the first Jan Bemelmans year and we all know how silly the people who missed out on that one felt once it got around how brilliant he was! The second JB convention was full to the rafters. By all accounts Adelinde is a very good speaker and if people do not want to go see her I suspect it will be their loss.
 
Tnavas said:
I'm sure we have all been guilty of doing something that is not quite agreeable - there are MANY riders who place their horses on the bit by see sawing on the horses mouth!
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Yes I'll hold my hands up to that, but I don't repeat it day after day!!! This is not a one-off, it's how she trains horses.

Did you really pay to see a rider who gets to the top by sawing on the horse's mouth? Are you planning on using her methods to win .more rosettes yourself?

For me, the end does not justify the means, sorry.
 
Booboos said:
Apologies for the general reply but I have to pop the horses in and I don't have time to reply to individual messages:

- philosophy is the study of good arguments which means that the discipline concerns itself with absolutely everything from the philosophy of mathematics, to ethics, to political philosophy and the study of the metaphysics of time. I don't sit on ethics committees, I have in the past trained ethics committees. I have as much a right to comment on anything that takes my fancy on the forum as anyone else.

- piaffe is a diagonal movement and as such the hip bones will move up and down. Parcival's piaffe is extremely engaged as shown by the convex shape of his back and his hind legs coming really under his body. Makign one mistake in one piaffe in one test does not mean the horse cannot piaffe, it just means he is a horse.

- there is no evidence that working a horse in hyperflexion (or rollkur if you prefer) causes any kind of pain or sight problems, or breathing problems.

- by extension it is not clear to me why the horse would be unhappy as such.

- mental states, such as happiness, are subjective experiences of other subjects, whose minds we have no access to. We can only rely on what these subjects communicate to us and a supposition of commonality. The further away from the human experience one goes and the greater the barriers to communication, the more difficult it is to make assumptions about other states of minds. So it makes little sense to us as human beings to ask what it is like to be a bat as we'd need to imagine what it would be like to see the world through echo location rather than sight - an impossible task. Many PETA supporters see it as self evident that any use of horses in riding or as pets makes them unhappy and those of you who rely on your self-evident common sense to say that Parcival is clearly unhappy join very poor reasoning company with PETA and have no arguments to refute their self-evident claims.

- one of the least subscribed BD conventions in the last decade was the first Jan Bemelmans year and we all know how silly the people who missed out on that one felt once it got around how brilliant he was! The second JB convention was full to the rafters. By all accounts Adelinde is a very good speaker and if people do not want to go see her I suspect it will be their loss.
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I think that you are both over intellectualising this issue and watching a different horse piaffe than I am.
 
Parzivals legs do not come far enough under his body therefore he is not engaged. His back is very slightly rounded at certain points in the piaffe but not consistently and not rounded enough.
 
cptrayes said:
Yes I'll hold my hands up to that, but I don't repeat it day after day!!! This is not a one-off, it's how she trains horses.

Did you really pay to see a rider who gets to the top by sawing on the horse's mouth? Are you planning on using her methods to win .more rosettes yourself?

For me, the end does not justify the means, sorry.
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I expect you did until someone told you that it was wrong and though I wouldn't go to an instructor that taught that there are many that do which is why the habit is perpetuated.

These photos are moments in time, I noticed that the horse looked like it was tilting its head so I wonder if what was captured was the horse being asked to flex to the left. A very common exercise.

We all have different methods of training and the reports from Equidays from the people who had a lesson with her are all very positive - they thought she was wonderful.

I'm a classical person through and through so any pressure put on a horse is not in my training methods.
 
Booboos said:
There are a number of self styled experts out there
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Having and expressing an opinion doesn't necessarily mean that one is claiming special expertise.

who neither compete at top level, or train horses at top level, or train riders at top level, or have any scientific publications on horse physiology or ethology and still claim expertise. I do not agree with either them or you that all that is needed to be a horse expert is eyes and half a brain.
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Eyes and a brain (preferably a whole one) is a prerequisite though. Experience counts for a lot too, especially experience guided and tempered by the input of people who have competed/trained at top level or are academically qualified. Not that any of those things by themselves ensures expertise - top level people have been known to hold odd and/or incorrect beliefs. Actually I would say that experience counts the most, and I expect quite a few here have had decades of experience with horses while not all competing or training professionally.

Tell me this using your eyes and even the whole of your brain: what is it like to be a bat?
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Red herring! That's a different philosophical question. Of course we cannot be 100% sure that what looks like suffering or unhappiness actually is (arguably even in fellow humans). Nevertheless, we base our moral standards on the assumption that we can tell, at least to first approximation, whether animals are feeling fear, pain, distress, discomfort etc. If we were to accept the argument that, just because we can't know what it is really like to be a bat that uncertainty allows all manner of mistreatment and cruelty, where would we be? Trying telling the RSPCA (for example) "Do you know what it is like to be a cat? No? So ****** off and leave me to carry on neglecting my house full of moggies" and see how far you get!
 
but we aren't just talking about the photos are we- we are including the many videos that exist that show Adelinde sawing/bracking/over bending etc..

The fact that many riders put their horses 'on the bit' by sawing doesn't mean a pro should be doing it - though I suppose it has worked for her at least...

Parzivals in his piaffe doesn't seem to sit behind and lighten the forehand with his hind legs underneath him as I have always thought correct for a piaffe more just bounces of his hind legs.

ETA- lack of evidence doesn't mean something isn't true (from a scientist :p )
 
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cptrayes said:
I think that you are both over intellectualising this issue and watching a different horse piaffe than I am.
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I don't see how a straw poll on a forum over whether a horse none of us even know is happy is the way to go. As for his piaffe there are quite a few international judges who think it's rather excellent and if we label them ignorant idiots we'll have to chuck out their placings of horses like Valegro, Uthopia and Mistral Hojis, not just the Dutch riders the British don't like.
 
Booboos said:
- there is no evidence that working a horse in hyperflexion (or rollkur if you prefer) causes any kind of pain or sight problems, or breathing problems.
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When you say "sight problems", may I assume you're referring to acute restriction of vision during hyperflexion rather than some chronic lasting effect on vision? If so, on what basis are you claiming that hyperflexion doesn't restrict the ability of the horse to see where it's going? Or do you admit that it does, but that it isn't a problem?
 
perhaps rather than getting so wound up in how the horse USED to go, would it not be better to discuss the things that have improved bewteen the olympics and the Euros? the horse is clearly softer, more open in the neck and more relaxed.....perfect it may not be (yet) but the rider is clearly trying to go down a different path having held her hands up and realised her mistake. Surely better to commend her for trying to rectify this situation than to continue to critisise her for what she USED to do?

i wouldnt be too critical of the piaffe either, it shows tremendous energy and ability to stay on the spot so although he doesnt *sit* as well as eg Valegro, is he any better or any worse than some horses which show tremendous sit but barely pick their hind feet up of the floor and seem to shuffle from one diagonal to the other?
I am going through a difficult time currently, trying to improve CS's piaffe and i can tell you that in a horse that doesnt naturally sit, its incredibly incredibly hard to influence the rhythm and the engagement. If you havent ever done this perhaps be a bit more cautious in your crit, as you have zero idea of just how hard it can be? The piaffe may not be the best on the circuit but neither is it the worst (by a long long way).

I also think that whilst there are moments that make me cringe and plenty of pics that show a clearly not happy Parcival, there are many many more pics of unhappy horses as basic amateur level and it would be interesting to watch vids of everyone who is so venomous towads Adelinde, on this thread. If you cannot ride at even nov, elem, or med level without your hands bouncing up in time with your seat bouncing up, yanking the horse every stride in the mouth, and slamming down on his back,showing no lateral suppleness and no softness over the back.................im really not sure you have any place to be so critical.
Dressage welfare is just as important at the lower levels and people would do well to look to themselves first before being quite so determined to hang draw and quarter Adelinde.
 
dressage welfare is important at the lower levels...

but I don't think it is completely irrelevant that those people are not riding in a professional capacity/giving talks/instructing others etc.

fwiw I'd hope Frank would tell me if any of your list were true :p
 
My comment would be that people supposedly at the top of their game in this sport should be an example to follow.
In recent years few riders have inspired people in a good way.
This whole rollkur thing has blighted this sport, top to toe.
In no way is it right or proper to accept what these riders do no matter what the result.
When the FEI say s no rollkur yet the are caught at it in secret training areas hidden from view, they add cheating to the inappropriate training methods.
Of course the Lowe end will be rubbish if they ape the top being rubbish.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
perhaps rather than getting so wound up in how the horse USED to go, would it not be better to discuss the things that have improved bewteen the olympics and the Euros? the horse is clearly softer, more open in the neck and more relaxed.....perfect it may not be (yet) but the rider is clearly trying to go down a different path having held her hands up and realised her mistake. Surely better to commend her for trying to rectify this situation than to continue to critisise her for what she USED to do?
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Fair point. Has she actually come out and said her previous use of hyperflexion was wrong? Kudos to her if she has.
 
I must agree looking to ourselves is a must more useful use of energy than getting heated over a top horse ,
Improve what you do improve the work of your horses.
I follow international riders a lot I have rider who I admire a lot and other that I admire Er a lot less but to get heated over someone you don't know and whose character you are not in much place to judge ( eg calling someone a witch ) is not productive .
Parsizal does IMO sit as well as others in piaffe but it's conformation driven he's not built to sit like say Valegro but he shows great rhytmn ans energy in all his work.
He's clearly difficult but has been AC partner for a long time and it's not easy to get horses to last at the top level.
there I just defended my second most disliked combination that's going some for a tuesday morning .
 
I have not and will not call AC a witch because I simply don't know her. It is rollkur/hyperflexion which I don't like, for both welfare and aesthetic reasons (maybe more the latter if I am honest with myself). To do that to a horse just to get higher scores in a dressage test is well... yuck! (imo)
 
she has not outright said her use of rollkur/HF was wrong but what she has said is that she has taken on board comments made at the olympics and is workint towards a lighter, less compressed, way of going. So she accepts she was going down the wrong path or using too extreme methods and is now trying to change that to a certain degree (i doubt she isw going to stop the deep/LDR/rollkur/HF 100% but perhaps wont use it so much/so extremely/so prolonged?).
 
It amazes me how people are quick to criticise top riders and I think they forget that many of these horses would be downright dangerous for amateurs as they are so hot and sensitive. I for one would not criticise Adelinde as although I have trained my own horses to Prix St Georg level I would not dream of getting on something like Parzival, Salineiro, Scandic etc as I am sure they would scare the bejeezers out of me. Its a bit like people who never use draw reins have clearly never ridden a naughty youngster that is threatening to put you on the floor for fun! I would love to see how long the people here who are criticising would last on top of Parzival!
 
ester said:
I didn't think the heat was over a top horse? more the selection of presenter/training method by BD?
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She is one of the worlds most sucessful riders ATM she has used a controversial training system that has produced this extremely difficult horse and kept him at the top level for a long time.
Surely to throw light and understanding on a system is good and I think quite brave of BD.
It would be very easy to get CH and everyone goes marvellous marvellous debate is good in this challenging what you think is good .
It's not as if everyone who attends is just going to trundle home and change everything they do because they won't .
But they will get stuff to think about and to challenge their thinking and that's always worthwhile .
 
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