fburton
Well-Known Member
I'd be interested to know if today he would score as highly as he did then.
Adelinde Cornelissen - happy horse?
- Thread starter cptrayes
- Start date
LCH611
Well-Known Member
Ps by 'encourage' they mean 'force' of course. Nice way to treat a horse with a sore back and likely to add a sore neck to his rehab, I would think
But sometimes when you have surgery as part of the rehab you have to push yourself and force a joint (for example) to be used when all you really want to do is protect it. I was told very bluntly by my physio that I needed to man up and not let post-surgery adhesions cause me a limited range of movement for the rest of my life. I was worried when I slipped and stretched things further than I thought I ought to, but she applauded and said that was just what was needed. Consequently I can definitely see why vets & equine physios might recommend it, because I can't imagine that a horse would feel instinctively motivated to work through the pain barrier
cundlegreen
Well-Known Member
Of course he wouldn't. Its a lot about flashy movement now. I think in those days when you could compete top level as an amateur as RK did, it was about correct training and lightness. My point is, how many horses nowadays could do that many changes with the rider using one hand??
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
But... if you are trying to improve the horse then surely you *are*, by default, also improving his well being? In the same way that improving your own body by fitness, yoga, whatever, makes you feel better.
But horses ARE working animals. They do a job. It isn't natural for them to be ridden so surely we owe it to them (and their well being) to ensure they are strong enough and fit enough to carry us, and perform? Fitness work and stretching is surely needed in order to make sure the horse can do his job without causing strain and stress? If you don't work the horse properly then all you will end up with is a horse with a dipped back and insufficient muscle to do his job without pain, and that in itself brings a whole host of other problems. Dressage should be about suppling and strengthening the horse so he can better carry you and do his job properly. IMHO not working him correctly is doing him a disservice because he is then unprepared for ridden work. Surely you want to give the horse the best chance of carrying you and staying sound? Think about how uncomfortable bad posture makes you in your own body. You need to make sure the horse can carry himself properly, has the right muscles and can do his job. Of course these exercises were created to make the horse more amenable to work - that will always be the case unless you believe horses should just roam free and never be ridden.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
he wouldnt score as highly because at points he is hollow and not engaged (having watched a few full tests online).
I think plenty of horses would do a long string of ones,one handed,any of the top 5 at the Olympics or Euros, or Totilas (under EG)
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
It's an interesting point but with specific reference to interspinous ligament resection treatment for kissing spines I'm at a complete loss to understand why you would want to force the horse to open the processes using short side reins on the lunge for 20 minutes, and keep it on box/very small paddock rest, instead of letting the horse do it naturally by grazing and moving about in a field 24/7.
On my horse with a knee ligament kick injury, I was happy to force him to flex it more than he wanted to. On my kissing spines horse I thought there were better ways to achieve the back mobility we wanted.
Its not relevant to this discussion at all but I'd be happy to continue the conversation on my thread in Veterinary or on my blog.
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Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
grazing and working in side reins cannot be compared as ways to build/strengthen the topline/ligaments/back. If leaving them out to graze 24/7 build up strength in the back then training up the levels would be a damn site easier and would take out the need for all the basic strengtheing and suppling work!
Grazing will stretch things to a certain degree but not in the same ways as working in a deep frame would, otherwise we wouldnt see these horses being worked deep, they would just be out in the paddock eating their head off!
independant research has its place but i dont think id be going so against the grain with something so career/life threatening as KS.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Princess the question was specific to opening up the dorsal spinous processes, not to generally strengthening the back. The initial opening is obtained primarily by relaxation of spasmed muscles, not by strengthening them. And the major effect of the operation is believed to be produced by denerving, which requires no change in the muscles or ligaments to be effective. Except for the skin, nothing is cut that we want to rejoin.
I turned my horse out on hills as soon as the staples were out, and I never lunged him in a pessoa or side reins. And my vets agree that his progress is amazing. I never was any good at following orders I could see no sense in
I turned my horse out on hills as soon as the staples were out, and I never lunged him in a pessoa or side reins. And my vets agree that his progress is amazing. I never was any good at following orders I could see no sense in
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nikkimariet
Well-Known Member
Sorry C..., what?!
I suffer muscle spasms in my back. On several medical professionals advice, I am to undertake low intensity exercise - with the focus being stretching and suppling my back. Ultimately to strengthen my back muscles, in order to help try and prevent future recurrences, and lessen the severity of any that do occur and subsequent damage.
Chicken and egg. You don't get the softness/relaxation without the strength, and you don't get the strength without the softness/relaxation.
I don't quite get what your point is!
Nitro mouse
Well-Known Member
Hi just wanted to add my bit, 15 years ago I purchased a horse that had been trained in this manner way before it had become a source of public debate. He was six, he had been ridden in draw reins and lunged a lot in tight side reins. He thought nose touching chest was what rider wanted once any contact was taken. It has taken me YEARS to get over this. Even now if someone new rides him and takes up a strong contact old habits kick in and wham in goes the nose. It saddens me, he loathes school work but seems to enjoy being ridden. He was an angry miserable, bitey kicky grump, but over time he has learnt to relax stretch and lengthen his stride and is a very happy chilled boy now. When I first got him he was horribly upright and stiff in his movement. It took about 18 months of just hacking for him to cotton on how to walk, trot etc stretch and lengthen.
I haven't paid much attention to what is going on in the dressage world for a long time. I don't like the training methods of some of the top riders and yes i have seen a few of them at work. Carl Hester I think is an exception btw.
Going to the Paralympics dressage was a breath of fresh air. As a lot of the riders are unable to "haul em in" .
yes I know highly trained competition horses can be hot to handle, but interestingly a horse can still tank off with its nose on its chest apparently.....so rolkur as a method of control is not entirely accurate. ( I know this cos mine has done it). Also it makes em damn difficult to stop too. Sigh,
Debates like this are healthy and a good thing, everyone should be held accountable of their methods and actions, especially those in the public eye, because ultimately they do influence what the rest of us do. Constantly looking at how our horses are trained and aways questioning and reassessing those methods can only ultimately benefit the horse.
I haven't paid much attention to what is going on in the dressage world for a long time. I don't like the training methods of some of the top riders and yes i have seen a few of them at work. Carl Hester I think is an exception btw.
Going to the Paralympics dressage was a breath of fresh air. As a lot of the riders are unable to "haul em in" .
yes I know highly trained competition horses can be hot to handle, but interestingly a horse can still tank off with its nose on its chest apparently.....so rolkur as a method of control is not entirely accurate. ( I know this cos mine has done it). Also it makes em damn difficult to stop too. Sigh,
Debates like this are healthy and a good thing, everyone should be held accountable of their methods and actions, especially those in the public eye, because ultimately they do influence what the rest of us do. Constantly looking at how our horses are trained and aways questioning and reassessing those methods can only ultimately benefit the horse.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The point is that your back does not have spinal processes anything like a horse. And that a horse with painful kissing spines can frequently be resolved by getting the muscles to relax, because it is the spasm in the back muscles that causes the closing of the gaps and the knocking together of the processes that causes the pain. This does not require additional strength at this point.
With a horse with KS it's a vicious circle. Pain causes the back to spasm. That causes the gaps between the processes to close up further, which creates even more pain, and on it goes.
Therefore, removal of the spasm is often enough to allow the owner to then work the horse to keep the spaces open, which is why not every horse with KS has to be operated on, and injections alone are enough for some of them. My own horse's spines were so exceptionally close that operating was the only option.
He happily dealt with a field on a one in five slope from day twelve. He did not need additional strength in his back, he needed the pain removed so that he stopped using his muscle strength against himself.
And guess what, with no lunging in a pessoa, never mind in rollkur, he has, all by himself, built up a load of additional back muscle which is making him able, a week after starting being ridden, to easily carry me up a one in five hill too.
He has been deliberately bred short backed to do high level dressage. I've had two like this now and the other was cold backed in a British winter too. I do think we need to start questioning whether the current intentional breeding of close coupled horses is likely to become a welfare issue in the future, if it is not already.
I hope this helps clarify what I meant NM, if not please feel free to ask more questions, since I'm right in the middle of a KS rehab I'm obviously full of useless information about it at the moment
PS regarding the advice you are following, if translated to a horse, I would not myself call lunging in rollkur 'low intensity' , but I would describe turnout on hills that way.
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cundlegreen
Well-Known Member
Excellent post.
Re the tanking off with head in chest, I have seen this happen in the driving world, and a nasty accident happen as a result. The young horse had always been driven with a very tight rein. On this occasion, the reins got wet, slipped through the drivers hands, and a full scale bolt happened, smashing the carriage up.
amandap
Well-Known Member
If anyone is interested I found more on the study, I linked earlier, from the ISES site. http://www.equitationscience.com/do...sensus workshop/UtaVonBorstel_Rollkur2009.pdf
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Thanks, off to read that A.
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
Beautiful!
Blurr
Well-Known Member
Beautiful video, a joy to watch, all those effortless changes, the lightness in the collected work and then that extended trot without bracing or leaning back. And all just showing off! Thanks for posting.
fburton
Well-Known Member
One would hope that the well-being of the horse was compatible with changing fashions. Am I right to sense a bit of tension there?
Marydoll
Well-Known Member
Reiner Klimke was a master, its a joy to watch a horse ridden so lightly and to be so responsive. The likes of Adelinde and a few other Grand Prix riders would never be allowed to park their butt on any of my horses because of the way they ride.
weebarney
Well-Known Member
For me dressage should be gentle on the eye. I take no enjoyment in watching these uptight stuffy looking horses with bits (muscles/ ligaments/ whatever?) bulging out of them that look like they should be in a circus doing tricks.
cornbrodolly
Well-Known Member
We went to 'The Horse Event' in the Netherlands last year[ a large show of equestrain demos/displays etc]-it was held quite soon after the Olympics. Adelinde was a guest 'turn'. Even not speaking any Dutch, we could tell the outrage from the commentators and the audience that she had been beaten in the Olympics . She gave us the keep fit demo - very unimpressive I m afraid,unless you like juggling and balancing on a gym ball.
Various demos at that Horse Event concentrated on 'Harmonie' , which we took to be a softer way of doing dressage . In a long winded way what I m saying is that she will have had to rethink her training methods , because dressage is now much more about a happier and less tense horse. Rollkur ,one would hope, is being consigned to the dustbin, as todays dressage tests are marked in a way that encourages and rewards correct training.
This more balletic and fluid dressage work could be seen at the dressage convention at Bury Farm this past weekend. To watch Valegro work was pure joy - a willing horse , enjoying his work - and he is hacked daily, in paddock daily and school worked 4 time s a week max. Carls methods are humane - and he gets the results too - so why B D even asked Adelinde is a mystery. Bury Farm was a sell out [ though not without a few things that need refining /changing in future years] but I doubt B D convention will be as good.
Various demos at that Horse Event concentrated on 'Harmonie' , which we took to be a softer way of doing dressage . In a long winded way what I m saying is that she will have had to rethink her training methods , because dressage is now much more about a happier and less tense horse. Rollkur ,one would hope, is being consigned to the dustbin, as todays dressage tests are marked in a way that encourages and rewards correct training.
This more balletic and fluid dressage work could be seen at the dressage convention at Bury Farm this past weekend. To watch Valegro work was pure joy - a willing horse , enjoying his work - and he is hacked daily, in paddock daily and school worked 4 time s a week max. Carls methods are humane - and he gets the results too - so why B D even asked Adelinde is a mystery. Bury Farm was a sell out [ though not without a few things that need refining /changing in future years] but I doubt B D convention will be as good.
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
KPM
Well-Known Member
A few points from me:
Have any of you that seem intent to hang, draw and quarter Adelinde ever actually watched her ride? I don't mean a biased you tube video, i mean a *recent* warm up at a show for example? Or have any of you been to her last masterclasses she did? I have. She is an exceptional speaker - warm, funny and knowledgeable. IMO its fine to not like her methods (hell, their are some so called top trainers I wouldn't hesitate to use a barge pole to keep them away from me and mine), but do it with full awareness and research if you are going to spout so venomously, not just some 2minute videos. A friend of mine has just had a lesson with her and raved about it.
Secondly, with regards to the rollkur positioning. At the Bury Farm convention on Saturday one of the guinea pig horses kept popping its head onto its chest...now it wasn't held there, but should I be up in arms that this *clearly (tongue in cheek)* how it is trained hence why it does this? No, of course not. If i had taken a moment in time picture and posted it here, would there have been outrage. Of course. A little perspective can go an awful long way.
Also, knowledge is powerful. I sat through the demo of one very well respected classical trainer and was aghast at some of the comments she made. I couldn't believe my eyes and ears. However, rather than blasting her for it, i sat and listened, made my own judgement and decided to (respectfully) ignore it. The methods weren't ones I felt would benefit my horse or I at this time (and i cant imagine in the future), so I won't be using them. There is no one forcing any of us to use methods we aren't comfortable with.
Lastly - British horses and riders aren't infallible. I have spent alot of time watching GB riders at shows and at home and there are without doubt some occasions where I have winced. Mistral Horjis for example is an extremely strong horse and Laura has often been seen to be taking some rather hefty half halts. But that is what it is...unless you are sat on the horse its very difficult to judge.
Have any of you that seem intent to hang, draw and quarter Adelinde ever actually watched her ride? I don't mean a biased you tube video, i mean a *recent* warm up at a show for example? Or have any of you been to her last masterclasses she did? I have. She is an exceptional speaker - warm, funny and knowledgeable. IMO its fine to not like her methods (hell, their are some so called top trainers I wouldn't hesitate to use a barge pole to keep them away from me and mine), but do it with full awareness and research if you are going to spout so venomously, not just some 2minute videos. A friend of mine has just had a lesson with her and raved about it.
Secondly, with regards to the rollkur positioning. At the Bury Farm convention on Saturday one of the guinea pig horses kept popping its head onto its chest...now it wasn't held there, but should I be up in arms that this *clearly (tongue in cheek)* how it is trained hence why it does this? No, of course not. If i had taken a moment in time picture and posted it here, would there have been outrage. Of course. A little perspective can go an awful long way.
Also, knowledge is powerful. I sat through the demo of one very well respected classical trainer and was aghast at some of the comments she made. I couldn't believe my eyes and ears. However, rather than blasting her for it, i sat and listened, made my own judgement and decided to (respectfully) ignore it. The methods weren't ones I felt would benefit my horse or I at this time (and i cant imagine in the future), so I won't be using them. There is no one forcing any of us to use methods we aren't comfortable with.
Lastly - British horses and riders aren't infallible. I have spent alot of time watching GB riders at shows and at home and there are without doubt some occasions where I have winced. Mistral Horjis for example is an extremely strong horse and Laura has often been seen to be taking some rather hefty half halts. But that is what it is...unless you are sat on the horse its very difficult to judge.
CrazyCobLady
Well-Known Member
Poor horse.
hayinamanger
Well-Known Member
Still overbent for majority of this video.
tristar
Well-Known Member
it just looks wrong, i don't like it and as for , if you can do better etc, well it would mean one would have to ride and train within that competition system to do 'better'.
ozpoz
Well-Known Member
Wow . . . what a pleasure to watch
P
Beautiful. And that picture of harmony is what we used to aspire to.
Now sadly out of fashion.
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
Not sure if you will be able to see this - my friends young German warmblood pony stallion Hilkens Denali.
He goes to this place a couple of times a week so that he can play and the rider is a friend of the owner - normally an eventing rider she was having great fun trying for Passage, but getting baby piaffe.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=617550331624720&set=vb.337483452964744&type=2&theater
He goes to this place a couple of times a week so that he can play and the rider is a friend of the owner - normally an eventing rider she was having great fun trying for Passage, but getting baby piaffe.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=617550331624720&set=vb.337483452964744&type=2&theater
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
What a cracking pony!!!
He's going to find piaffe a piece of cake isn't he, he's already more engaged than parzival
Auslander
Well-Known Member
What a cracking pony!!!
He's going to find piaffe a piece of cake isn't he, he's already more engaged than parzival
He's gorgeous - just been checking him out on the studs website. I want a 17hh version of him! http://www.hilkensdenali.com/stallion/hilkens-denali
RoseGrey
Well-Known Member
I feel a lot of dressage riders rely on the curb chain for submission and outline.
If I had a chain around my jaw I would damn well give in too..!
I often wonder what the horse's skin is like under those curb chains.
I also personally wish that BD would ban double bridles and curb chains....that would sort the wheat from the chaff as far as riders and schooling methods !!!
If I had a chain around my jaw I would damn well give in too..!
I often wonder what the horse's skin is like under those curb chains.
I also personally wish that BD would ban double bridles and curb chains....that would sort the wheat from the chaff as far as riders and schooling methods !!!